How did this proud country get in such a mess?

[bfcjg]

Bell bottoms

[Imploding Turtle]

When winning the argument being more important than being right spread from the kind of attitude politicians held to the kind of attitude the general public holds that's when things started to go tits up in Britain.

15 years ago it would have killed the Leave campaign to have lied so brazenly, and the politicians who lead it would no longer have the same career. Thesesa May would never have been trusted with the leadership if 15 years ago she U-turned on the Tory's "Snooper's Charter" promise literally minutes after the 2015 election. There's no way we would have let anyone call it democratic when UKIP get 12.7% of the vote yet only one MP while the SNP and Lib Dems get a combined 12.6% and sixty ******* six MPs.

But nowadays politics is a team sport and we've become mere fans. If our side lies it's fine, as long as we win. It means our side has out-played your side at the game. Facts have become "that's just your opinion". "Fake news" is no longer things that are deliberately made up to look like news, it's now anything in the news that you don't like, or even innocent mistakes. Propaganda is now considered news and news we don't like is now propaganda. We used to call bullshit on people when they tried to smear their political opponents yet now when Cameron calls his political opposition a threat to national security, or deliberately twists his opponents meaning to tell people he thinks Bin Laden's death was a tragedy, people who supported Cameron were absolutely fine with it, because Cameron was their team's captain so it was all OK.

If you think this country isn't in a mess then you're being really naive because a country is the sum of it's people, and this country's people have become dribbling idiots.

[RingoMcCartney]

White people

Would you like to expand on this comment?

[LeadBelly]

When people started to take themselves too seriously and started calling people who disagreed with them idiots or even "dribbling idiots".

[basil6345789]

3 Stages
1 Abolition of National Service
2 Introduction of Comprehensive Education
3 Legalisation of same sex stuff/human rights
Prior to these there was discipline and order

[Imploding Turtle]

When people started to take themselves too seriously and started calling people who disagreed with them idiots or even "dribbling idiots".

I made the point that winning the argument is more important to people nowadays than being right, and that misrepresentaing people has become OK if it aids in winning that argument, and here you are providing supporting evidence for me. Thanks.

[7decades]

When t`Clarets got relegated from the first division

[NottsClaret]

But nowadays politics is a team sport and we've become mere fans. If our side lies it's fine, as long as we win. It means our side has out-played your side at the game.

I pretty much agree with this. Out of curiosity, do you include yourself in this. Or is it just something people you don't agree with do?

[RingoMcCartney]

When people started to take themselves too seriously and started calling people who disagreed with them idiots or even "dribbling idiots".

I think your work on this thread is done!!

Put your feet up and enjoy the rest of this sunny bank holiday weekend!!

[LoveCurryPies]

Since we got a German Royal family.

[boiledclaret]

Since we got a German Royal family.

Who were very welcoming towards Jimmy Saville and his associates.

[LeadBelly]

Ringo- Thanks, no "feet up" just yet though, I'm off to south London c. 13.30. Only 90 mins on the train, then time for a beer or two with The London Clarets to fortify me for the excitement (I hope) at Selhurst Park.
I have some cava in the fridge for if I get back in celebratory mood & will definitely have my feet up with that.

[Imploding Turtle]

I pretty much agree with this. Out of curiosity, do you include yourself in this. Or is it just something people you don't agree with do?

There are people with whom I agree that do it too, and they're just as much of a dick as your insinuation makes you.

[Acting Claret]

Welfare state

[LoveCurryPies]

Who were very welcoming towards Jimmy Saville and his associates.

Queen even let Rolf paint her portrait.

[RingoMcCartney]

Ringo- Thanks, no "feet up" just yet though, I'm off to south London c. 13.30. Only 90 mins on the train, then time for a beer or two with The London Clarets to fortify me for the excitement (I hope) at Selhurst Park.
I have some cava in the fridge for if I get back in celebratory mood & will definitely have my feet up with that.

Fair play to ya fella. I've always thought of Palace to be in pig of a ground to get to! I'll be watching in a pub in Padiham (oh the glamour eh!?) today. I'd take a point as we speak, but here's hoping your downing the cava, fine style.

Give em a shout for me.

[Paul Waine]

When winning the argument being more important than being right spread from the kind of attitude politicians held to the kind of attitude the general public holds that's when things started to go tits up in Britain.

15 years ago it would have killed the Leave campaign to have lied so brazenly, and the politicians who lead it would no longer have the same career. Thesesa May would never have been trusted with the leadership if 15 years ago she U-turned on the Tory's "Snooper's Charter" promise literally minutes after the 2015 election. There's no way we would have let anyone call it democratic when UKIP get 12.7% of the vote yet only one MP while the SNP and Lib Dems get a combined 12.6% and sixty ******* six MPs.

But nowadays politics is a team sport and we've become mere fans. If our side lies it's fine, as long as we win. It means our side has out-played your side at the game. Facts have become "that's just your opinion". "Fake news" is no longer things that are deliberately made up to look like news, it's now anything in the news that you don't like, or even innocent mistakes. Propaganda is now considered news and news we don't like is now propaganda. We used to call bullshit on people when they tried to smear their political opponents yet now when Cameron calls his political opposition a threat to national security, or deliberately twists his opponents meaning to tell people he thinks Bin Laden's death was a tragedy, people who supported Cameron were absolutely fine with it, because Cameron was their team's captain so it was all OK.

If you think this country isn't in a mess then you're being really naive because a country is the sum of it's people, and this country's people have become dribbling idiots.

Hi IT, I guess you've forgotten than 2002 is 15 years ago - and about that time Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell (will Alastair have time to be at Palace today?) were explaining the threats from Iraq. What you refer to is not a new thing in UK politics.

What is new today is "social media" - so, a lot more views can be expressed and disseminated. Some of this is good, but it also creates opportunities for "trolls" to try to spoil things.

[Paul Waine]

I was born in 1951 and although too young to be aware of certain, if not most things
up until the 70's and later it seems fairlyy clear to me that this country has been in decline
for a number of decades if not more.
By then our influence and exploitation of the empire was in decline, if not at an end.
The Second World War didn't help and proved to be a huge drain on our resources and wealth.
I think also that our attitude if I can put it like that, post the Second World War was still rooted
in the past and our so called glory days.
We failed to innovate both in manufacturing and other areas.

Good post, Jurek. One question, you say you were "too young to be aware of certain, if not most things up until the 70s." Did you mean 70s, or should this read 60s?

I was born 1953 - a couple of years after you. I remember watching the 1962 FA Cup final - I think it was the first game I watched on TV. I remember going to watch Accrington Stanley v Burnley (a friendly) and, as Stanley folded in 62, it must have been that time. Of course, we all remember the World Cup in 66. Away from football, I have memories of the Cuban missile crisis (think that was also 62) and I still recall where I was when I first learnt that Kennedy had been assassinated (Nov-63). And then there is all the space exploration stuff, Sputniks and Apollos, leading up to moon landing. And, then there is the "birth of pop music" and the Beatles and the Rolling Stones (and many, many, more) - and "flower power" around 1968 (or was it 67). I'm sure you also have these memories and more.

[happyclaret17]

another one for the " pc brigade "...perhaps the idiot trade union leaders in the 70s didnt help...maggie did the dirty work and put right lots of what was wrong...albeit leaving communities in turmoil.
also we have far too many bullsh1t jobs in this country...I am director of a small company and wear overalls every day...if my company goes tips up its down to me...I dont have anyone to bail me out....if all companies in our great had more workers and less suits we would be a stronger nation for it.
and dont get me started with the bankers...a set of bankers, the lot of em...utc.

[Right_winger]

The PC brigade have a lot to answer for, as does Tony Bliar
With all his mass immigration and human rights crap.

[Imploding Turtle]

Hi IT, I guess you've forgotten than 2002 is 15 years ago - and about that time Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell (will Alastair have time to be at Palace today?) were explaining the threats from Iraq. What you refer to is not a new thing in UK politics.

What is new today is "social media" - so, a lot more views can be expressed and disseminated. Some of this is good, but it also creates opportunities for "trolls" to try to spoil things.

I was schooled in Scotland so I was aware that 15 years ago was 2002. And I also remember that the Iraq war had massive public opposition across the whole political spectrum.
Were something like that to happen today there wouldn't be anywhere near as politically diverse an opposition.

[ablueclaret]

It was the pride that did it, a huge superiority complex.

[bfcjg]

Not being allowed to drink another pint in your existing glass. " I'll just get you a clean glass" FFS I am not a leper and if I were its only my lips. Wear gloves if you don't want to touch my glass.

[bfcjg]

Only scoring two at Palace

[Paul Waine]

Only scoring two at Palace

No. That's a sign that "things are already getting better...."

Where have I heard that before?