Sunderland relegated with an £83m wage bill and £110m of debt

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:02 pm

terrifying for them - especially if they don't have relegation clauses

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/sport/ ... wage_bill/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

you reap what you saw though

KefkaClaret · Post by **KefkaClaret** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:04 pm

I think Sunderland would definitely have relegation clauses considering how the past few seasons have gone.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:08 pm

10 years in the Premier League does funny things to a club - Look at Bolton - though clubs should have learned their lessons from them

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:11 pm

Almost as much debt as bastids.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:20 pm

Better start saving up. We'll take Defoe and Pickford to strengthen the squad!

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:24 pm

To be fair to Moyes, he saw the writing on the wall before the season started both off and on the field.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:32 pm

But Moyes shouldn't have let his defeatism show. If you let the players know you think they're not good enough to stop up, you're 75% relegated before you start. If Dyche had had Moyes attitude this season, we would have been relegated for sure.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:35 pm

They're also for sale asking price of £140 million ish.
Covers debt to Ellis plus extras to make it worth while.

Flatline · Post by **Flatline** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:50 pm

I watched an interview with Moyes at the beginning of the season and he mentioned a relegation battle ahead,very uninspiring for his players to hear.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:13 pm

Yes Notes was thinking relegation before a ball was kicked. Just trying to cover his own arse knowing he did not have the ability to deliver for Sunderland. Yesterday's man already.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:18 pm

IanMcL wrote:Yes Notes was thinking relegation before a ball was kicked. Just trying to cover his own arse knowing he did not have the ability to deliver for Sunderland. Yesterday's man already.

Would they have any chance of poaching Dyche,when Moyes bites the dust at the end of the season?

FulledgeClaret · Post by **FulledgeClaret** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:22 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Would they have any chance of poaching Dyche,when Moyes bites the dust at the end of the season?

Doubt it. why drop a league have to rebuild an ageing poor squad most likely while cutting costs and the club up for sale. new owners could come in and SD finds himself out of favour.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:22 pm

Nope.
Distance to travel is greater and Dyche still lives in the midlands area doesn't he?

Also their squad is a bit naff if you look at it overall and I'm expecting a lot of sales in the summer to clear out the dross.
The owner wants to sell, so I wouldn't expect much money to be available for transfers as a result.

The fans knew they'd be relegated yesterday and as a result that was their lowest attendance of the last few years I think I heard mention.

Looking at the championship I think they'll get steamrollered by the better teams down there and there will be a few.

Steve1956 · Post by **Steve1956** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:24 pm

Always a worry when a big club is in trouble,that they may come looking for our manager,his stock will be at its highest it's been this summer,someone is bound to come sniffing round him.

Shore claret · Post by **Shore claret** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:26 pm

KefkaClaret wrote:I think Sunderland would definitely have relegation clauses considering how the past few seasons have gone.

I very much doubt the above, more likely the players have released clauses to let some other mugs to pick up their lucrative contracts. Cue Brighton and Newcastle

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:31 pm

Bolton didn't have relegation clauses, so I doubt Sunderland will.

Yes someone will possibly look at Dyche, but hopefully he's happy moving both the club and himself forward.

bobinho · Post by **bobinho** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:32 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Always a worry when a big club is in trouble,that they may come looking for our manager,his stock will be at its highest it's been this summer,someone is bound to come sniffing round him.

Agree. But it won't be Sunderland.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:38 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Bolton didn't have relegation clauses, so I doubt Sunderland will.

How would what Bolton did or didn't do have bearing on what Sunderland agreed with their players?

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:42 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Always a worry when a big club is in trouble,that they may come looking for our manager,his stock will be at its highest it's been this summer,someone is bound to come sniffing round him.

I thought Villa were a bigger threat given potential and proximity to home for Dyche - an interesting one is Leeds - looking like Monk is leaving at the end of the season (end of contract and not renewing as they have missed playoffs) - more stable now with joint ownership and obvious potential.

I think Sean wants at least another season with us though so he can enjoy the fruits of what he has built (hope Chris Sutton was right on BBC today (feels weird saying that) he was asking where would Sean go (can't go bigger so why leave was my interpretation)

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:46 pm

Steve1956 wrote:Would they have any chance of poaching Dyche,when Moyes bites the dust at the end of the season?

Sean Dyche: I've kept Burnley in the Premier League. The club are profitable. I will have the chance of a decent budget to strengthen for next season. Or, I could move to Sland. Relegated to Championship (OK, I've a good record in that league). Big debts, need a total rebuild - and probably no money to do the rebuilding.

I think I'll stay at Burnley - assuming everyone wants me to.

Edit: Oh, and a chance to prove myself at "second season syndrome).

UTC

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:56 pm

taio wrote:How would what Bolton did or didn't do have bearing on what Sunderland agreed with their players?

Length of time in the PL would possibly breed the same arrogance as Bolton.
After 10 yrs you'd assume you wouldn't need relegation clauses.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:00 pm

That's a wild assumption which I think is wrong

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:06 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Length of time in the PL would possibly breed the same arrogance as Bolton.
After 10 yrs you'd assume you wouldn't need relegation clauses.

A club might take the chance to sign players without relegation clauses IF they have built up a large reserve to cover wages if they get relegated. Sunderland haven't done this - they are in debt.

I spoke with some Portsmouth fans on the train on way home from Palace yesterday. They'd been watching the Army v Navy rugby (or possibly doing what people do at rugby - drink all day). They were promoted from L2 yesterday. I remember going there in 2009 when they were in the Prem.

Quicknick · Post by **Quicknick** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:20 pm

I'm glad Moyes doesn't manage us.

EarbyClaret · Post by **EarbyClaret** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:20 pm

I'm surprised people still worry that Dyche would leave us to go back to the Championship. He's proved he can master that division - twice.

The better we do the fewer the options. His logical move is to a PL club at the next level to us but not as yet challenging around the top 6/7. Given his approach and the style of football likely to be on offer that's a short list currently consisting of West Brom and at an outside bet Stoke.

SD will want to have a proper go at the PL with us next season and then everybody will probably need to reassess where they are at.

As for Sunderland, difficult to see them attracting a manager of the calibre of say Benitez or Bruce, like other 'big' clubs who have found themselves outside of the PL. Someone like Alex Neil might be more realistic.

Quicknick · Post by **Quicknick** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:20 pm

Paul Waine wrote:A club might take the chance to sign players without relegation clauses IF they have built up a large reserve to cover wages if they get relegated. Sunderland haven't done this - they are in debt.

I spoke with some Portsmouth fans on the train on way home from Palace yesterday. They'd been watching the Army v Navy rugby (or possibly doing what people do at rugby - drink all day). They were promoted from L2 yesterday. I remember going there in 2009 when they were in the Prem.

Is Paul Cook still manager at Pompey?

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:11 pm

Whatever lets hope they beat Swansea next week.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:11 pm

Oops week after!!!

bfcmik · Post by **bfcmik** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:25 pm

Most players won't agree to relegation clauses that include a pay cut. They will usually agree to, or demand, a relegation release clause that lets them talk to other clubs in the PL or foreign equivalent.

I think we got round it last time (and I don't know about this time) by having an extremely good bonus system that rewarded playing in the Premier League more than if playing in the Championship. Which is why so many players didn't need to get new contracts for higher wages after promotion.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:59 pm

bfcmik wrote:Most players won't agree to relegation clauses that include a pay cut. They will usually agree to, or demand, a relegation release clause that lets them talk to other clubs in the PL or foreign equivalent.

I think we got round it last time (and I don't know about this time) by having an extremely good bonus system that rewarded playing in the Premier League more than if playing in the Championship. Which is why so many players didn't need to get new contracts for higher wages after promotion.

Agree. Bigger bonuses while playing in a higher league are probably easier to agree than lower wage when in a lower league. It's all part of the negotiation - along with the club that's negotiating and the player(s) there are negotiating with, plus the other clubs that may be interested In the player.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:42 pm

According to 5 live today it's well known that most Sunderland players have a 50% pay cut relegation clause (I didn't know that but the local press and the pundits all seemed to agree it was the case).

As for Dyche going to a championship club, there's no chance. It wouldn't suit his plans of moving his career onwards and would make him look unambitious.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 10:47 pm

aggi wrote:According to 5 live today it's well known that most Sunderland players have a 50% pay cut relegation clause (I didn't know that but the local press and the pundits all seemed to agree it was the case).

As for Dyche going to a championship club, there's no chance. It wouldn't suit his plans of moving his career onwards and would make him look unambitious.

My guess would be that a 50% pay cut rumour goes round and doesn't get contradicted, so by the time it's gone round the block a few times it becomes authoritative.

A bit like the Keane sell-on. At Christmas it was well-known and accepted that there was no sell-on clause. At present it's well-known and accepted that there is a 25% sell-on clause. There has been (so far as I know) no official confirmation from anyone who might know, so it's just a matter of a "rumour of the month" competition.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:01 pm

dsr wrote:My guess would be that a 50% pay cut rumour goes round and doesn't get contradicted, so by the time it's gone round the block a few times it becomes authoritative.

A bit like the Keane sell-on. At Christmas it was well-known and accepted that there was no sell-on clause. At present it's well-known and accepted that there is a 25% sell-on clause. There has been (so far as I know) no official confirmation from anyone who might know, so it's just a matter of a "rumour of the month" competition.

Club confirmed it several years ago. Suppose they could have changed approach but it's been widely reported that relegation clauses apply which fits the previous official position.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:05 pm

taio wrote:Club confirmed it several years ago. Suppose they could have changed approach but it's been widely reported that relegation clauses apply which fits the previous official position.

Depending how many is "several", it may mean nothing at all, because most of the contracts may have expired or been superseded.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:09 pm

Enough time for contracts to have expired but I believe it still to be the case. If you don't then fair enough.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:14 pm

If they've managed to shoe horn that clause into contracts then they should be applauded for it.

I wonder what Lescott's pocket will tweet about it if its true.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:27 pm

Only the top seven can afford not to have relegation related clauses in their players contracts.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:41 pm

Sunderland have a justified reputation for not working within their budget - they are more than happy to sign players they can't afford. So I wouldn't rely too much on them being so prudent as to turn a player down just because he wouldn't sign a relegation clause - everything about them suggests they would take a chance.

We thought we had relegation clauses in our players' contracts in 2009-10, until the 2010-11 accounts came out and we found we were wrong. I'm not saying they have or they haven't just that I don't think we know either way.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Mon May 01, 2017 7:44 am

Sidney1st wrote:Nope.
Distance to travel is greater and Dyche still lives in the midlands area doesn't he?

I think he now lives in Manchester? I'm sure I read an interview recently where it mentioned that? Wasn't it Kettering he was from?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon May 01, 2017 8:20 am

I didn't realise he'd moved closer.

bedfords · Post by **bedfords** » Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 am

Can't see there's any chance that he's moved his family from Northants.

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Mon May 01, 2017 9:11 am

Dyche has far more sense than to go to Sunderland.

Someone mentioned Leeds, which might be a possibility, but doesn't the mad Italian still rule the roost there?

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Mon May 01, 2017 9:41 am

What worries me if looking at the likes of Sunderland, Bolton, Blackburn and Wigan - were all stable Premier League clubs... where will Burnley be in 10 years?

duncandisorderly · Post by **duncandisorderly** » Mon May 01, 2017 9:42 am

See Stoke for the right way a club our size needs to do it. WBA too.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Mon May 01, 2017 10:01 am

I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of Burnley making the mistakes that some of these others have. We may get relegated in the future, but I don't think we'll be skint for a very long time.
You can sympathise with the fans somewhat, it is out of their hands after all, but the people who run these clubs should hang their heads in shame. They are supposed to be business men, when in fact most of them couldn't organise a **** up in a brewery.
It's a simple fact of life wether personal or business, you live within your means, and cut your cloth accordingly. Why is it so hard for them to comply. I think they have a fear of relegation that is unjustified. The championships a great league, and so much easier to get out of if you drop down with no debt, than it is if you drop down with debt and a massive wage bill.
Sunderland will take at least 6 years to recover from this.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon May 01, 2017 10:08 am

Some fans make demands though that clubs pay silly fees and wages for players.

We get some on here demanding x amount is paid etc.

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Mon May 01, 2017 11:51 am

dsr wrote:But Moyes shouldn't have let his defeatism show. If you let the players know you think they're not good enough to stop up, you're 75% relegated before you start. If Dyche had had Moyes attitude this season, we would have been relegated for sure.

Exactly what Dyche says ...

If you think you are beaten, you are.
If you think you dare not, you don't.
If you would like to win, but think you can't ...
... it's almost certain that you won't.
If you think you will lose, then you've lost.
For out of the world you find
Success begins with a player's will.

IT'S ALL IN THE STATE OF MIND

Moyesey should have a gander at our boss.

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Tue May 02, 2017 2:01 am

scouseclaret wrote:Dyche has far more sense than to go to Sunderland.

Someone mentioned Leeds, which might be a possibility, but doesn't the mad Italian still rule the roost there?

Not for much longer it seems

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/201 ... ks-future/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;