Madleys delay...

[bobinho]

I know refs don't usually explain their reasoning behind certain decisions, but I was wondering if this has been discussed by anyone - pundits etc?

It's been spoken about in other threads but something about this is bugging me.

Seems to me there well maybe a "third referee" thing going on with someone in the refs earpiece "helping out" that we haven't been told about.

For the life of me I cannot otherwise understand the delay in his decision making process here, after all, handball is handball, it resulted in us scoring and there was no "advantage" to think about. The linesman either didn't see it, or was instructed to flag only for offsides during the game - we know they don't flag for throw ins to reduce the chance of two officials disagreeing during the game. They wait for the ref to decide, then flag to agree.

Be interesting to see if Poll or Gallagher raise the relevant points, which to me are why the delay, and was there outside input into the process, but I suspect they won't.

That's right, I'm a conspiracy theorist.

[dsr]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was asking the fourth official. Can the fourth official see a TV screen that fast? Either that, or he was (like atkinson at Man U yesterday) thinking it was probably handball but wasn't sure, so was having a chat about it. Maybe Barnes looking back twice to see if it had been disallowed was the deciding point?

As for throw ins, I think the reason linemen tend not to flag is because it's not their primary job. When the ball is being kicked, they tend to be looking along the line for offside, and either listening for the kick or looking across the field an instant before the kick. So if it's a marginal decision with a deflection or the ball coming off both players, the chances are the linesman wasn't looking.

[Grimsdale]

I think he decided to disallow it when he saw Barnes and Boyd's goal celebration ...

[Lord Beamish]

I don't mind the delay if he got the decision right. He did. No problem for me.

[claret wizard]

I'd like to think that he was saying to his linesman "I think he handled that, but you've a better view, did it hit his arm or not?" lineman says, "No idea Boss, I was checking that he was onside." Ref cancels goal as he thinks he handled it, correct decision. Let's move on.

[ClaretTony]

We saw a really good example recently of referee and assistant talking before making a decision when Charlie Adam handled the ball when he fell over. That probably happened on Saturday but it is frustrating for the crowd who had assumed the goal had been given. But as Lord Beamish posted, if they get it right in the end there can't be any complaints.

[bobinho]

Ok wizard, fair enough. You move on, I'd like to discuss it a little longer. But for the record, the ref "thinking" he handled it isn't enough. He needs to be sure. He wasn't sure (hence the long delay) but made the decision anyway. "Why" is what I'm interested in knowing.

I'm happy that the decision was correct, but I was under the impression there were no outside influences on the games decisions. If there was, then that is a real issue and should be addressed.

Either we have someone else watching and advising the ref, or we don't. At the moment, we don't. At least we shouldn't.

[Lord Beamish]

Bobinho. It was obvious to me that some 4th Official shenanigans went on in some games when Zidane was sent off for head butting Materazi in the WC Final all those years ago. It was obvious at the time that neither the three officials on the pitch or the Fourth Official had seen it as it happened. Only a review of the replay showed Zidane's recklessness/brilliance(delete as appropriate) and after some considerable time he rightly got his marching orders.
I too suspect that 4th Official involvement may have ruled out Ash's second goal. Then again, it may well have been his assistant that did it; we can't be sure.
As it happens, the right decision was delivered. All well that ends well, and all that.

[Hipper]

I think it was yesterday's Spurs - Arsenal game where you could see a crowd influence on the officials. This was over an Arsenal corner where Ozil had placed the ball wrongly. The ref went over as a result to check.

[KRBFC]

Id rather referees delayed and took their time over decisions if it meant they got the big decisions correct which I thought he did.

[FCBurnley]

It doesnt matter one jot because we won 2-0 .

[Rosehill Claret]

I'd like to think that he was saying to his linesman "I think he handled that, but you've a better view, did it hit his arm or not?" lineman says, "No idea Boss, I was checking that he was onside." Ref cancels goal as he thinks he handled it, correct decision. Let's move on.

There was a programme recently on Sky Sports with Gary Neville and Jamie Carragher, who spent some time with referees and their assistants.

One of the referees said he would say to his assistant - 'I know what I saw, what did you see?', rather than leading the assistant referee to just agree with what the referee has said.

[minnieclaret]

I'd have preferred it if the lino(ASSISTANT REFEREE) had flagged that he'd seen something and then the referee gives the final decision.
The game was dead at that time, as the ball was in the net.

[Acting Claret]

Whatever went on, I wished it had happened in our game against Arsenal.

[J50]

If you freeze the tv at the point of handball there are 2 players obscuring his view. I expect he consulted with the linesman and considered how logically the ball came under control so well and the crowd reaction and gave the handball which is fair.

Same for that last minute winner for Swansea against us where the ref looked at Ben Mee lying on the ground having been flattened by the striker and came to the logical conclusion that he just fancied a lie down.

[Ashingtonclaret46]

If you freeze the tv at the point of handball there are 2 players obscuring his view. I expect he consulted with the linesman and considered how logically the ball came under control so well and the crowd reaction and gave the handball which is fair.

In other words --he guessed!. He couldn't see it and the AR couldn't be certain because Barnes has his back to him. Turns out to be the correct decision, however, I still think that he reacted to the Palace players because the crowd didn't seem to be too uptight.

[IanMcL]

It doesn't look handball to me! It catches him in that shoulder position and arm joint. If they had been shouting for a pen, in our area, it would definitely not have been given!

Barnes should have had a couple.

[minnieclaret]

In other words --he guessed!. He couldn't see it and the AR couldn't be certain because Barnes has his back to him. Turns out to be the correct decision, however, I still think that he reacted to the Palace players because the crowd didn't seem to be too uptight.

He isn't, Ash. On the view from our left wing you can see the lino on the far touchline. that's how we knew he hadn't flagged. He had THE view and should have flagged unless he was under orders not to?

[starting_11]

Spending 5 seconds discussing a potential handball goal isn't exactly a long time.

[beddie]

I think the ref was probably asking if the liner saw what he thought he saw being hand ball. Turning to liners decision making, their prime objective is to look down the line for off side, this is why sometimes they don't see things right in front of them.

[Wilsdenclaret]

sounds like a form of erectile disfunction

[claretspice]

However it was made, it was a good decision from the ref so ive no problem with him taking a few seconds to get it right.

My criticism is of Barnes, who i don't think needed to handle it. I think he could have let it come across him and used his chest. Certainly whatever advantage he gained from using his hand in terms of the % improvement in his chance of controlling the ball was more than balanced out by the risk of the officials spotting the infringement and ruling out the goal.

Sometimes thats Barnes' weakness. He resorts to "dark arts" when he might be better of just playing the game properly.

[dsr]

There was a programme recently on Sky Sports with Gary Neville and Jamie Carragher, who spent some time with referees and their assistants.

One of the referees said he would say to his assistant - 'I know what I saw, what did you see?', rather than leading the assistant referee to just agree with what the referee has said.

That's fair enough. Perhaps the ref thought it was handball,m but wasn't certain; he asked the linesman who also thought it was handball but wasn't certain (hence why he didn't flag); and between them decided that the evidence was strong enough to give handball. Shame they didn't do that v. Arsenal. (But good that they didn't do that v. Leicester.)

[NRC]

the sooner video evidence is brought in, the better. Look to the recent international between Spain and France for proof of that.