used car buying advice please

[Vintage Claret]

Tempted by a 57 plate Honda Civic 2.2 diesel EX.

It does have 130k on the clock but has a full service history, (part Honda/part independant garage) -obviously there are no guarantees but just interested in any opinions as to whether a high mileage diesel, particularly Honda who I understand have a decent rep is a good punt at around £2,500 never having owned one before?

[Sidney1st]

If its got a diesel particulate filter /DPF don't bother buying it.
If it hasn't got one that's not a bad price.

I don't know where abouts you're based, but take the time to read up on new diesel vehicle charges for cities across the UK and see if that's going to effect you.

[Rick_Muller]

I agree with Sid (I know he knows his stuff - especially diesels) and that price seems a bit steep to me after checking Autotrader. I have a 63 plate on lease which I am hoping to buy at the end of the lease because it's been brilliant.

[Vintage Claret]

Cheers Sidney, googled it and apparently the UK version of the Civic diesel doesn't have the DPF.

I'm resident in the great metropolis of Burnley so hopefully the city specific charges won't have much effect
though I guess there's always a chance some wider punitive measures for older diesels might be introduced eventually.

[Sidney1st]

Its worth asking the question though.

2007 was the year manufacturers started fitting them as standard to many vehicles.

I know for a fact Land Rover did, because of my job.
I also know BMW and VW did around the same sort of time.

Google might be right, but play it safe and ask.

[Clarets4me]

It's a Honda, and the 2.2 diesel Engine has a timing chain not a belt..

Most Honda's are as reliable as time.... however get an HPI check, and do a MOT history report on the Government web-site...
Just google MOT history, it's easy enough...

[Vintage Claret]

Will do, thanks for the advice.

[FulledgeClaret]

As sidney has said It shouldn't have a dpf on that year. as for the car as a whole they are virtually indestructable and 130k for the 2.2D is nothing. Have a look on civicinfo.com it is the font of all knowledge where the Civic is concerned.

[MACCA]

you said you would give me some info on vans etc, when I get 1. Is it still ok to give you an email? If you pop it on here I'll send you one today.

Cheers.

[Paul Waine]

Tempted by a 57 plate Honda Civic 2.2 diesel EX.

It does have 130k on the clock but has a full service history, (part Honda/part independant garage) -obviously there are no guarantees but just interested in any opinions as to whether a high mileage diesel, particularly Honda who I understand have a decent rep is a good punt at around £2,500 never having owned one before?

You might want to hold off on committing to a diesel until the Gov't has published plans for reversing the environmental issues with diesels. I think they are due to publish next week. You might fall lucky with a scrappage scheme - or you might be outside the area. It maybe that the price of the car changes when the plans are announced.

Of course, nothing will change until after the election - and some months afterwards.

[Loyalclaret]

Check we buy any car for a valuation, 'pretend' to be the owner if you have the reg.

[Sidney1st]

you said you would give me some info on vans etc, when I get 1. Is it still ok to give you an email? If you pop it on here I'll send you one today.

Cheers.

Sidney1st.ro@googlemail.com

I'm off work this week, so I'll be able to answer in a reasonable time.

[Walton]

I had a Civic and it was great, I loved it. As stated above, civinfo is a really good forum.

[Clarets4me]

Check we buy any car for a valuation, 'pretend' to be the owner if you have the reg.

The quote you'll get from WBAC is roughly £350 - £550 less than a good example, is likely to fetch at a trade Auction...
That's their business model, so add £450 or so for an accurate trade price... This assumes full Service History, 2 keys etc...

[Lee72]

If its got a diesel particulate filter /DPF don't bother buying it.
If it hasn't got one that's not a bad price.

Not sure why you feel so strongly about the DPF. Yes, things can go wrong but I don't personally know anyone who's had an issue with one - I've had at least 5 cars with them and not a hint of a problem. Surely driving style/journey types are relevant when giving that advice. Theres a multitiude of very expensive things that can go wrong with older cars, not just the DPF.

[Rick_Muller]

Not sure why you feel so strongly about the DPF. Yes, things can go wrong but I don't personally know anyone who's had an issue with one - I've had at least 5 cars with them and not a hint of a problem. Surely driving style/journey types are relevant when giving that advice. Theres a multitiude of very expensive things that can go wrong with older cars, not just the DPF.

Not sure what Sid's expert opinion will be, but for me it wasn't hard to find out reasons why you'd want to avoid one on an older diesel car. I had a Vectra that was plagued by DPF issues along with EGR valve problems - after speaking to Sid a few years ago, I got it fixed quiet cheaply thanks to his advice. The main dealer was useless and just wanted to charge a fortune for the fix.

http://blog.greenflag.com/2014/diesel-d ... -know-dpf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Sidney1st]

I work in the motor industry, I know the issues with them.
The AA also released a statement a few years ago advising people NOT to buy cars with DPF's.

Now the government has finally realised they aren't actually that good either.

It isn't just me that doesn't like them.


The DPF system was fine in principle, but poorly designed quite simply and its been fitted to vehicles that aren't going to get enough usage to warrant having one.
What the manufacturers should've done is set the vehicle to tick over whilst regeneration of the dpf was occurring but someone had tried to stop the engine.
All the manufacturers were actually interested in doing was keeping the within the emissions regulations for as long as possible, not the actual long term effects.
If you take a vehicle with a blocked dpf back to a main dealer chances are they'll blame you for it and claim its not covered under warranty.

Turning the engine off after short journey's or during the regeneration process is what causes the most issues with DPF's.

Car sales people are poorly educated and also too target driven so they aren't interested in telling you about the dpf and how the vehicle needs to be driven.
I know this because I had some idiot in the Peugeot dealership in Salisbury try to sell me a new diesel a couple of years ago.

I have an 07 plate Golf diesel, without a dpf and when we upgrade next year we're switching to Petrol.
If you're using a diesel for motorway usage or longish journey's daily then carry one buying new ones.
If its a school run vehicle or similar short journeys you need to take it on weekly trips down your nearest A-road/dual carriage way or motorway to clear out the dpf.
Alternatively buy a petrol if that's what sort of use its getting.

If you're going to keep a diesel with a dpf its probably worth looking into re-maps and have some 'work' done to the dpf itself.
Always handy to have a customer friendly mot garage too, if they're still about but with MOT's becoming stricter friendly garages find it harder to help.

[Sidney1st]

Not sure what Sid's expert opinion will be, but for me it wasn't hard to find out reasons why you'd want to avoid one on an older diesel car. I had a Vectra that was plagued by DPF issues along with EGR valve problems - after speaking to Sid a few years ago, I got it fixed quiet cheaply thanks to his advice. The main dealer was useless and just wanted to charge a fortune for the fix.

http://blog.greenflag.com/2014/diesel-d ... -know-dpf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ha I couldn't remember if it was a Saab or vectra you had, I just remember the throttle body issue because my dad had the same issue on his Saab with the same engine.

That was when I was working in Salisbury, 2-3 yrs ago now I think it was.

[Lee72]

Sydney, your advice/experience re. the DPF (regeneration etc) is good sound advice, but my point was it wouldn't be the only thing I'd focus on when looking at whether that Civic would be a good buy. Personally if i were set on buying a car that age/mileage I'd want to pay for an independent inspection to check out the common problems for that model (clutch etc) - I know this is not always an option.

I'd buy another diesel with a DPF without hesitation having never had an issue with one - although mine have all been 2010 onwards - and after all, they are there to help the poor sods we drive past in our dirty diesels.

Clarets4me advice around the MOT search is excellent - however, word of warning. My mates 2009 BMW 120i failed on emissions and this is now logged forever in the results. Trouble is it did not fail - the independent garage did not appreciate they had to set the emissions kit for the particular engine type (lean burn engine) rather than for a generic year/120i - this was the only reason it failed. When this was discovered a week later after extenisve work to try and fix it they redid the test with the machine set correctly and it passed with flying colours. The problem is the fail cannot be removed from the history (he asked the question), despite the fact it did not really fail. But if I saw it on the search results it'd probably put me off buying the car.

[rishtonclaret]

I've had 3 diesels all had DPF problems and one caused major engine damage. My advice is avoid diesels and also avoid at all costs Motorpoint - you'll get conned or missing sold. Stick with buying from a dealer.

[rishtonclaret]

I've had 3 diesels all had DPF problems and one caused major engine damage. My advice is avoid diesels and also avoid at all costs Motorpoint - you'll get conned or miss sold. Stick with buying from a dealer.

[Lee72]

I' My advice is avoid diesels and also avoid at all costs Motorpoint

How can some people have such a different experience of cars? I've nothing but good words to say about Motorpoint - you get what you know you are buying, the cars are fine and are as expected for a second hand car - had a ford focus/ford smax/mazda 3/astra from them and they were great. Fixed any minor issues without any sort of arguing etc. And looking at the orginal post motorpoint wouldn't be within the budget so don't see the need to mention them.

And yes, I do waste too much money changing our cars.

[Sidney1st]

Sydney, your advice/experience re. the DPF (regeneration etc) is good sound advice, but my point was it wouldn't be the only thing I'd focus on when looking at whether that Civic would be a good buy. Personally if i were set on buying a car that age/mileage I'd want to pay for an independent inspection to check out the common problems for that model (clutch etc) - I know this is not always an option.

I'd buy another diesel with a DPF without hesitation having never had an issue with one - although mine have all been 2010 onwards - and after all, they are there to help the poor sods we drive past in our dirty diesels.

Fair comment about the other things people should be checking when buying a car.

As for the dpf's helping people, they really aren't doing that because cars with them aren't driven to the required standards.

[Sidney1st]

I also forgot to mention there's a whole separate industry set up to clean blocked DPF's.

If they were that good and efficient then there wouldn't be a need for them.

[Lee72]

I also forgot to mention there's a whole separate industry set up to clean blocked DPF's.

If they were that good and efficient then there wouldn't be a need for them.

Basically sums up the whole motor industry, garages are there because clutches fail/gaskets blow/turbos need replacing etc. Cars are a money pit and I'm not going to disagree that DPF's are yet another way your car can be very costly.

And after all that I''ll probably get a DPF warning message on my car when I start it up tonight

[Vintage Claret]

Thanks for the replies, certainly food for thought.

Not desperate to change our current car yet so might just hold off for a bit and see what happens with any new diesel regs and wait for a lower mileage petrol civic or similar in our price range, Peugeot 308,Suzuki Sx4, maybe something like that.

[Right_winger]

Another point worth noting if your buying a diesel please do not fill it with **** supermarket diesel. The ultra low sulphur stuff they have causes a lot of issues with the DPF and EGR valve.

The EGRs are also a crap ( euro emissions ) design especially for diesels.

Petrol might be the answer if your not doing many miles but keep in mind the extra servicing required on a petrol.

[South West Claret.]

Two car makes I would never buy Peugeot and Fiat, heard far to many horror stories of both makes over the years from people I know.

However Having inherited a Honda Jazz 1400 petrol auto. I can't speak highly enough of them, not cheap but very comfortable, well designed and excellent fuel consumption. Best car I've ever owned.

[Right_winger]

Ford use the Peugeot ( PSA ) Diesel engines. Peugeot arent bad for a French car, now Renault is another story ( Renault and Nissan share a lot of parts also )
Fiat/Alfa do a cracking diesel but the build quality is ropey, guaranteed that an older one will have some electrical gremlins.

Cant go wrong with either a Honda or Toyota though.

[Sidney1st]

The 1.6 turbo diesel engine from PSA is quite probably the worst diesel engine ever made.
Its fitted in Fords too and should be avoided at all cost.

To give you an idea of how bad the engine is, BTN Turbos offer no warranty on the turbos they sell for that engine.

Carbon builds up and blocks the oil feed pipe for the turbo, which then goes bang sending fragments round the engine.
Engine requires the bottom stripping and rebuilding along with turbo replacement and feed/drain pipes.

Regular servicing doesn't help, the service intervals actually need to be halved and that may help.

[Sidney1st]

Renault, Nissan and Vauxhall share parts, mainly for their vans.

[ClaretEngineer]

The EGR design in principle is very sound. However it's that fact that oil vapour from the crankcase is vented back through the inlet. It's the mix of oil vapour and diesel soot that is the root cause of EGR issues.

Back to the 2.2 Civic. If their petrol engines are anything to go by (K20 etc) then the diesel should be just as good. At that mileage I'd be concerned about the clutch. Modern Dual Mass Flywheels and clutches are horrendously expensive, so is well worth factoring this into any purchase price.

Also have a look at the cost of main suspension components, as it's likely they'll be getting tired at this age and mileage.

[Sidney1st]

Honda parts are cheap enough and the ADL Blueprint range are good quality and reasonably priced.

They were fitted with an LUK clutch and flywheel set, so its worth checking that price and if its ever been converted to a solid flywheel instead.
If its been converted you'd need to know what brand because some are better then others.

[Clarets4me]

Two car makes I would never buy Peugeot and Fiat, heard far to many horror stories of both makes over the years from people I know.

However Having inherited a Honda Jazz 1400 petrol auto. I can't speak highly enough of them, not cheap but very comfortable, well designed and excellent fuel consumption. Best car I've ever owned.

A friend of ours recently lost her husband to Cancer...he'd bought a newish low mileage Fiat 500L to replace his old Fiat Panda, just before he passed away. She had to pay £700+ just to get it through it's 1st MOT...

She's now got rid of it ....