Leaving a man on half way

[TVC15]

I wanted us to concede fewer goals and generate more opportunities. Youve got selective reading.

Why don't you add to that list ? :

Winning the Premier League
Winning the Champions League
Going the whole season without conceding a goal
Being the first team to score 300 goals in one season
Etc etc

You say that nobody has put forward a logical argument for keeping everyone back. Even though someone has proved your guess at the statistics to be way off you still think that you are correct.

Dyche has already said that he has looked at all the statistics and this is why he does this. My guess is that he is also taking into account other factors such as the gulf in quality between Burnley and other teams, the quality of set pieces, etc. Whatever the reasons are Dyche deploys this tactic because he has statistical evidence that it works better (for us) than leaving someone up front.

What evidence do you have ?

[Andreshotboots]

Imagine the chaos it would cause when the opposition were given free reign to start an attack 12 yards outside our penalty box with 4 of our players out of position.

There's a case to be made for leaving a man up when defending corners, but I can conclude with absolute certainty that there's a very good reason why we, and most other teams don't do it.

We rarely invite pressure on ourselves when we clear corners, the ball usually ends up out of play. I think some of you are imagining events that don't happen. Even if Gray was on the halfway line the chances of us being able to clear the ball accurately enough to give him a chance of retrieving it are pretty slim. It's much less dangerous to clear the ball into touch and regroup than hope that a hoof forward will lead to a chance at the other end.

There would be nobody up to mount an attack if we left four up. They would at least leave 6 back to mark our 4, they will also have a keeper and a corner taker.. that leaves 3 men to be marked by our 6.. see I should be England manager with modern, out of the box thinking

[dougcollins]

I remember Tranmere leaving three on the half way line when we had a corner, caused absolute chaos.

John Aldridge was player-manager from what I recall.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Well if we are going off Dyches access to stats we may as well give up suggesting preferred teams, tactis, subs and transfers. In fact we may as well close the message board down.

Stats are good. And worth looking at and taking into consideration. But only to supplement other ideas.

Brentford appointed a manager (was it after Warburton) and implemented a transfer system based purely on stats.

Stats are good when used alongside other things.

And I wasnt way off at all. I suggested it would be 30 percent. It was around 25 percent and thats directly first phase. Doesnt include second phase or penalties conceded during the corners.

[Tall Paul]

And I wasnt way off at all. I suggested it would be 30 percent. It was around 25 percent and thats directly first phase. Doesnt include second phase or penalties conceded during the corners.

No, first of all you thought it was a "minimum of 30 percent from first phase of corners alone"", then you "guaranteed" it was "at least" 30 percent from direct free kicks and you were "pretty sure" we'd conceded a higher percentage than any other club.

The "around 25 percent" is all set pieces, not just corners and is actually just under 23%.

Way off on every single thing.

[TVC15]

Well if we are going off Dyches access to stats we may as well give up suggesting preferred teams, tactis, subs and transfers. In fact we may as well close the message board down.

Stats are good. And worth looking at and taking into consideration. But only to supplement other ideas.

Brentford appointed a manager (was it after Warburton) and implemented a transfer system based purely on stats.

Stats are good when used alongside other things.

And I wasnt way off at all. I suggested it would be 30 percent. It was around 25 percent and thats directly first phase. Doesnt include second phase or penalties conceded during the corners.

Firstly it's 23%...,you "guaranteed" it was 30% !

Secondly 23% is set pieces - not corners. We don't bring back all our players for all set pieces.

Brentford case is nothing like this - Brentford tried the moneyball type strategy for transfers / buying players - and failed dismally. Nobody is saying statistics should be used for every aspect of football....and Dyche has said on many occasions he uses a mixture of techniques of which statistics is one element.

On this particular issue Dyche has said that he has looked at all the statistics of bringing everyone back against leaving a player on the half way line and decided on the former.

As said unless you have some kind of evidence as to why you think your view is better not sure why you are so convinced. Saying you want to concede less and make more opportunities does not exactly prove your argument does it ?!!!

[TVC15]

You got there first Tall Paul !!

And how can conceding a penalty at a corner have anything to do with not leaving a man up front ?!!!

Are we seriously saying leaving a man up front reduces the possibility of conceding penalties now ? If that is a statistic that is relevant we should leave all 11 players on the half way line and that way we will be top of the league table in least penalties conceded from a corner.

[cricketfieldclarets]

No, first of all you thought it was a "minimum of 30 percent from first phase of corners alone"", then you "guaranteed" it was "at least" 30 percent from direct free kicks and you were "pretty sure" we'd conceded a higher percentage than any other club.

The "around 25 percent" is all set pieces, not just corners and is actually just under 23%.

Way off on every single thing.

So basically we concede a lot of goals from set plays but not quite as many as i assumed. I thought it was 3 goals in every 10 but its less than that but still over 2 in every 10. Hardly way off.

And we posess zero counter attacking threat when defending said set plays (which is what the thread started about).

What does gray actually offer defensively at a corner anyway?

[Tall Paul]

We don't concede a lot of goals from set plays, we concede a just below average number.

[cricketfieldclarets]

You got there first Tall Paul !!

And how can conceding a penalty at a corner have anything to do with not leaving a man up front ?!!!

Are we seriously saying leaving a man up front reduces the possibility of conceding penalties now ? If that is a statistic that is relevant we should leave all 11 players on the half way line and that way we will be top of the league table in least penalties conceded from a corner.

Well pretty obviously it does. Less men from their team in the box to foul. Less of our men to handle it. Its not even that difficult to think about it.

[cricketfieldclarets]

We don't concede a lot of goals from set plays, we concede a just below average number.

Lets just keep conceding them then. Not look at different ways of stopping them.

And not look at different ways of scoring more which again wqs what the primary focus was. Just so happens will also be potentially and probably defensively beneficial too.

[TVC15]

So basically we concede a lot of goals from set plays but not quite as many as i assumed.

And we posess zero counter attacking threat when defending said set plays (which is what the thread started about).

What does gray actually offer defensively at a corner anyway?

It's not just Burnley though is it ? You are kind of ignoring that our record is the same as many other teams.

Rather than just carry on repeating your view why don't you actually try and provide evidence of your argument ? What you are saying is that you think that if we left a man up front we would score at least one more goal than we have when we have pulled everyone back and that we would concede exactly the same number of goals or less.

So what is the basis of that ? Gray is not Eden Hazard or Pedro or Messi. What makes you think that firstly one of our midfielders is going to find him with a pass or clearance ?...and then if they did Gray is going to run 50 or 60 yards and beat at least 2 of their defenders and their keeper ? When as he ever in his career done that ? How many players at all have you seen do that ?

[TVC15]

Well pretty obviously it does. Less men from their team in the box to foul. Less of our men to handle it. Its not even that difficult to think about it.

Not patronising at all !

Just because there are players in the area does not necessarily mean that equates to more penalties. And even if there was statistical evidence to highlight that how do you know this would not be more than counter balanced by the fewer goals conceded by bringing back all of our players ?

What I am continue to struggle with is the fact that Dyche has already said he has analysed this yet you provide no evidence or statistics whatsoever. Do you think he is lying ? Or are you really so full of your self importance that you think you know better than him ?

This is a bit different to expressing an opinion on Dyche making a team selection or substitute which can be subjective - this is a tactic he had used for years now...during one of the most successful periods in our history.

[Spijed]

And we posess zero counter attacking threat when defending said set plays (which is what the thread started about).

Perhaps you need to look at our winner v Palace, and when you've done that, look at our second goal against Liverpool and see where they lost the ball.

We fairly shifted the ball at pace upfield in both those instances so it's unfair to say we have a zero counter attacking threat.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Ive actually watched the goal back against palace and its a great attack. A good counter attack. And shows we can attack at pace with or without gray. And shows why leaving player in advanced positions can work.

[cricketfieldclarets]

It's not just Burnley though is it ? You are kind of ignoring that our record is the same as many other teams.

Rather than just carry on repeating your view why don't you actually try and provide evidence of your argument ?

Lets analyse the penalties now then.

4 conceded plus 1 from a rebound.

Hull. Keane handled from a corner.

Southampton. Penalty conceded from open play although their other two goals were from corners.

Palace. Penalty conceded from open play after they counter attacked from our own corner. (We had scored as a counter attack from their corner to open the scoring.)

Arsenal. Penalty conceded from the attack mounted from the corner. (There opener was from a corner too) .

Then west ham. Penalty conceded from a corner. Noble scored the rebound.

So out of 5 penalty goals conceded 3 of which were penalties from corners. Which makes goals conceded from corners 13 out of 44. Which is just 30 percent which is what i guaranteed further up the thread.

[TVC15]

Ive actually watched the goal back against palace and its a great attack. A good counter attack. And shows we can attack at pace with or without gray. And shows why leaving player in advanced positions can work.

Hilarious !
Did you ever used to watch Vic Reeves ? "He just wouldn't let it lie" !!!

All the Crystal Palace goal proves is that you can still counter attack if you bring everyone back. That is not the same as we could counter attack better if someone is left up front. Use your own previous logic - less of our own players in the area means less chance of us winning the ball and starting a counter attack.

It's really not that difficult to understand sonny (cyber pat on the head)

[TVC15]

Lets analyse the penalties now then.

4 conceded plus 1 from a rebound.

Hull. Keane handled from a corner.

Southampton. Penalty conceded from open play although their other two goals were from corners.

Palace. Penalty conceded from open play after they counter attacked from our own corner. (We had scored as a counter attack from their corner to open the scoring.)

Arsenal. Penalty conceded from the attack mounted from the corner. (There opener was from a corner too) .

Then west ham. Penalty conceded from a corner. Noble scored the rebound.

So out of 5 penalty goals conceded 3 of which were penalties from corners. Which makes goals conceded from corners 13 out of 44. Which is just 30 percent which is what i guaranteed further up the thread.

You do realise you are starting to sound desperate, embarrassing and actually a bit mental.

Pretty sure that Keane and Ben Mee conceded most of those penalties - unless you are suggesting sticking them up front what actual f'in point are you trying to make ? It's ridiculous to put forward an argument which suggests that they would not have conceded those penalties if Gray would have been on the half way line.

And it's even funnier it took you 2 hours to think of that as your looney way to get to your 30% !!!

[cricketfieldclarets]

44 goals conceded.

10 from set plays.
4 from penalties excluding the penalty rebound. Thats 32 percent of our goals from dead balls.

[cricketfieldclarets]

You do realise you are starting to sound desperate, embarrassing and actually a bit mental.

Pretty sure that Keane and Ben Mee conceded most of those penalties - unless you are suggesting sticking them up front what actual f'in point are you trying to make ? It's ridiculous to put forward an argument which suggests that they would not have conceded those penalties if Gray would have been on the half way line.

And it's even funnier it took you 2 hours to think of that as your looney way to get to your 30% !!!

Its not took me two hours. It took me ten minutes.

I know who conceded the penalties. Ive given the facts to go with the stats and the opinion.

If the box was less crowded do you think keane wpuld have handled the penaly at hull? Or Mee kicked the koscielny in the head? Etc etc.

On the one hand you want evidence or stats to back up my argument. So i do so and you then dont want it because it proves what i was suggesting.

Sounds like we are all desperate and mental.

[TVC15]

I already said that the penalties conceded are irrelevant to your argument - so it's pretty pointless you getting statistics on this as they prove nothing. You may aswell have gone away and got statistics on how many bibs we left in the changing rooms.

Are you seriously saying that those penalties would not have been conceded if we would have left a man up front ? F-uck me if that's your idea of evidence please tell me you're not a policeman or barrister !!!!

[cricketfieldclarets]

I guaranteed 30 percent of our goals conceded were dead balls. You flagged this up as false. I proved otherwise. Unless a penalty is no longer a dead ball.

And I have already explained my reasons why those penalties MIGHT NOT have been conceeded with a man on half way. Its obvious. Its logic.

Leave a man on half way. Goalkeeper back. Two men back to mark said player. Corner taker. That leaves just 7 men max in our box. Therefore less players to foul or force an error on our behalf.

Night hun. Xx

[tim_noone]

And i thought football was about 22 people kicking a bag of wind about for an hour and a half? Of which i get great enjoyment.

[TVC15]

"Might" ?

That would stand up in court !

By your logic why don't we leave everyone out of the area then ?

The penalties are being conceded not because the penalty areas are more crowded - do you not think it might be ever so slightly in relation to the fact that some of the worlds best players (like Sanchez) are crossing it to other players who cost more than the rest of all our team put together....and we are forced to concede the odd penalty ?

But eh if we had Gray up front then Sanchez would be so worried about the counter he would fluff his cross ? Or maybe Kosceinly would think twice about challenging Ben Mee ?

Yep you've proven your point !

[tim_noone]

Try to enjoy the stoke game tomorrow,football managers are paid lots of money. Let them worry about analysis and statistics its their job.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Another goal conceded from a corner this weekend.

One of the problems may also be the amount of corners we concede. More than any team apart from Middlesbrough (who have played two less games).

[cricketfieldclarets]

Another conceded from a corner today and one conceded when we cleared the initial corner and couldnt break.

[PWBFC]

Errrmmm pretty sure the first goal was conceded because Lowton (who has been generally excellent) completely misjudged the flight of the cross field pass.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Point being it was still defending the second phase of a corner. So another goal directly from a corner and another from the second stage of the corner.

[Spijed]

Point being it was still defending the second phase of a corner. So another goal directly from a corner and another from the second stage of the corner.

So why do very few other teams leave a man upfield?

Let's face it, Dyche knows far more about tactics than anyone on here!

[cricketfieldclarets]

I don't know why. Stats is what most have pointed to.

Dyche knows far more than any of us on here about stats, tactics, lineups etc. But that doesnt mean we cant ro shouldnt question or have an opinion. Otherwise whats the point of the board?