O/T Genuine Question - Golliwogs, Racist or Not?

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Thu May 11, 2017 10:28 am

Surprised how many grown men from Burnley are attached to a knitted child's doll.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu May 11, 2017 10:29 am

There is a lass in her sixties who always sits down near us in the JHU with her claret and blue teddy.

Its not a golliwog though, probably due to her being perfectly normal.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Thu May 11, 2017 10:31 am

Sutton-Claret wrote:Can't understand why people get offended by such things - there's far more important things to worry about today.....

My understanding of the word WOG is Westernised Oriental Gentleman - which in my eyes isn't offensive at all. It was also used for people Woking On Government Service (WOGS).

I was working on a contract a few years ago where we had to replace some old pipework valves and fittings. The old fittings had the word WOG cast into them (Water - Oil - Gas). The MD wanted confirmation that the new fittings wouldn't have the word on and requested a sample before he would sign it off...

Those definitions of wog you describe were made up to try and present the term as respectable by the racists who used it.

ClaretEngineer · Post by **ClaretEngineer** » Thu May 11, 2017 10:31 am

nil_desperandum wrote: Try looking at the frizzy hair, the white eyes and the big red lips. Now do you get it?
They aren't ordinary dolls are they?

Black / Dark / African people do have frizzy hair (its a notable and likeable trait), their eyes are white (just like folk) and their lips are red (again like white folk).

Its only racist if you want it to be, and if you look long and hard with a bit of a squint there's always something to be offended about (if you let it!).

Wog - Westernised Oriental Gentleman. Says more about the intelligence of the people who used 'wog' to describe black people, when black people aren't oriental looking.

General Question - Do you get offended at being called a Honky?

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Thu May 11, 2017 10:33 am

martin_p wrote:It's not really the name that's the issue, it's the jet black face with big red lips, staring white eyes and fuzzy hair.

I once had a white person blacked up and dressed like Zwarte Piet throwing sweets at me.

I didn't find it so much racist as bloody annoying.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Thu May 11, 2017 10:35 am

ClaretEngineer wrote: Wog - Westernised Oriental Gentleman. Says more about the intelligence of the people who used 'wog' to describe black people, when black people aren't oriental looking

This definition is a myth designed to give respectability to a racist slur.

Funkydrummer · Post by **Funkydrummer** » Thu May 11, 2017 10:40 am

Sammyboy, your user name is one letter away from Sammbo.

Well, a few letters actually, but you can see how easily offended I am.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Thu May 11, 2017 10:43 am

I got a golliwog on Blackpool front, it had a blue shirt and claret trousers. He was christened Billy Hamilton, and I gave him to the lass I was with.
I don't think it's racist, I don't believe coloured people at the time, found it racist. Yet another victory for the PC left wingers who created something wicked out of something that was not.

Dom · Post by **Dom** » Thu May 11, 2017 10:50 am

Racists use the word "wog" as a slur against black people, don't believe anyone actually thinks it means "Western Oriental Gentleman" absolute horse ****. Wog is derived from Golliwog. Therefore although it wasn't designed as a racist symbol, racists changed its meaning and now it is. As someone else has mentioned the Swastika was a symbol thousands of years old before the Nazis started using it but it has forever been associated with them. Which is why it was weird seeing them on the elephant gate statues at Carlsberg HQ.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Thu May 11, 2017 10:51 am

There ain't no black on the Union Jack

Goobs · Post by **Goobs** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:09 am

Firthy wrote:It's so confusing nowadays I don't even know what the correct term is anymore more.

Do we refer to them as black, coloured or ethnic.

How about we don't need to label anyone as anything and we are all just people?

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:11 am

Amazing to see how many people get offended by other people taking offence at something they perceive as being inoffensive - How dare they get offended.

Again people who have never faced discrimination in their lives trying to minimise things.

Honky would be offensive if White Heterosexual Protestant Men had faced centuries of discrimination that still continued down to this day in albeit a less intense form - as it is it's more a term of derision.

duncandisorderly · Post by **duncandisorderly** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:12 am

Goobs wrote:How about we don't need to label anyone as anything and we are all just people?

Well, imagine you are in a room full of men, all white apart from one black guy who you want to point out to your mate. What's the most efficient descriptor you can think of?

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:17 am

duncandisorderly wrote:Well, imagine you are in a room full of men, all white apart from one black guy who you want to point out to your mate. What's the most efficient descriptor you can think of?

I would say the Gentleman with the blue tie

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:18 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:I got a golliwog on Blackpool front, it had a blue shirt and claret trousers. He was christened Billy Hamilton, and I gave him to the lass I was with.
I don't think it's racist, I don't believe coloured people at the time, found it racist. Yet another victory for the PC left wingers who created something wicked out of something that was not.

Sorry but you're wrong. Black people did find it very offensive that white people "blacked up", painted on big white eyes, big red lips and comical wigs. There have been "Nig**r" Minstrel shows since the mid 19th century. Although the structure of minstrel shows changed over time, the images -- blackface -- and the content -- caricatures of Blacks -- continued up until relatively recent times. Prior to the Civil War (1861-1865), pro-slavery Whites used the racist stereotypes as a way of countering the abolitionist movement. Performers defended slavery by presenting denigrating stereotypes of Blacks who supposedly needed the civilizing influence of slavery to keep them in check. Black slaves were portrayed as happy and content, (hence the big red lips etc.) with their lot in life and fearful of life outside of the plantation.
After 1870 the minstrel show declined, but continued to be depicted in the cinema and on TV until the 1970s!
The golliwog is based on the "Nig**r" or Christy Minstrel.
You really only have to ask yourself this. How many black people have you seen who look like a golliwog? It's a caricature that belongs in the past and is about as acceptable today as having Mr. Punch beat up his wife and baby with a club in a Punch and Judy show.

duncandisorderly · Post by **duncandisorderly** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:18 am

Even if he wasn't wearing one?

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:19 am

Blackrod wrote: Interesting point about Ausie not being offensive. Is the word Jap offensive ?

Interesting you bring this up Blackrod. Is POM offensive? I know Aussies that still use the term 'Paki' and people do not get offended.

With regards to the Japanese, we had a dive site in Thailand called Japanese Gardens, to shorten it we called it 'Japs'...one of our instructors an American/Japanese got awfully offended at this.....

Goobs · Post by **Goobs** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:21 am

duncandisorderly wrote:Well, imagine you are in a room full of men, all white apart from one black guy who you want to point out to your mate. What's the most efficient descriptor you can think of?

I don't know, the colour of his top? his haircut? glasses or not? facial hair, height all of which could be equally efficient depending on the others in the room. There is potentially lots you could use as well.

duncandisorderly · Post by **duncandisorderly** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:34 am

But why? It's as much a descriptor as fat, thin, tall, short etc.

I think assuming that person is offended by their own skin colour is a bit daft, to be honest.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:35 am

In fact in all my life I've never seen anyone who is white - white is a piece of paper a glass of milk - maybe someone who is albino, but certainly not a colour that should ever be used to accurately describe a human being.

It's amazing that an artificial construct designed by racists hundreds of years ago (classifying people by the colour of their skin) is still being used today, to divide people - and anyone who points out how inaccurate and outdated it is usually gets called PC (it used to be called being a N***er-lover - but now they call it political correctness)

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:37 am

How about "Hey Dave, haven't seen you for a while?"

claretdom · Post by **claretdom** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:44 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:How about "Hey Dave, haven't seen you for a while?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtYZLOh7rxQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Walton · Post by **Walton** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:45 am

Racists are the only people who don't think gollywogs are racist.

duncandisorderly · Post by **duncandisorderly** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:46 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:How about "Hey Dave, haven't seen you for a while?"

Is it really the case that you can't call a black person black? Really?
Fair enough, if those are the rules then consider me schooled.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:50 am

Why do we need to label people by the colour of their skin?

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Thu May 11, 2017 11:50 am

duncandisorderly wrote:But why? It's as much a descriptor as fat, thin, tall, short etc.

I think assuming that person is offended by their own skin colour is a bit daft, to be honest.

You seem to be the kind of person who thinks a large group of people actually have white skin, rather than being classed as having white skin.

The reason people are offended is because the colour groups have nothing to do with people's actual skin colour, but more to do with the fact that a group of idiots decided to group the planet in to 5 groups
European - White/Caucasian
African - Black/Negro
Asian - Yellow/Mongolian
Malay - Brown/Polynesian
American - Red/First Nation/American Indian

With the African's seen as a far lower race of humans.

As you know Humans only come in one race - Human Beings

So some numpty a couple of hundred years ago makes something up - disregarding centuries of human classification - based on culture and history rather than skin colour.

Skin colour is superficial - History and Cultural identity are of far more value.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu May 11, 2017 12:10 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:Is it really the case that you can't call a black person black? Really?
Fair enough, if those are the rules then consider me schooled.

The term black is generally considered perfectly acceptable and is used on official forms and in schools. It's the term "coloured" that is generally regarded as offensive, because it suggests that one particular ethnic group are coloured whereas in fact we all are.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Thu May 11, 2017 12:37 pm

Of course they are racist. If they had been left in the last century where they belong, the only people who would miss them are the 'political correctness gone mad' brigade

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Thu May 11, 2017 12:53 pm

The world has gone mental, people just love getting offended at everything.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu May 11, 2017 12:55 pm

KRBFC wrote:The world has gone mental, people just love getting offended at everything.

I think its ok to be offended about the slave trade, and this is where it all started, as I tried to explain in an earlier post.
For the record. I thought Robertson gollies were great, but I was only at primary school at the time.

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Thu May 11, 2017 12:58 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:Well, imagine you are in a room full of men, all white apart from one black guy who you want to point out to your mate. What's the most efficient descriptor you can think of?

Is your mate blind? Can you not just point and say "him" or are you whispering under your breath, in which case you can refer to him however you want, subject to your mate's sensibilities.

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Thu May 11, 2017 1:05 pm

I was in a spin class last night. In front of me, three girls in their twenties. We did a lot of out of the saddle riding. My fortune was in. Of the three, one of the girls was black, and of the three the black girl's ass was the most delightful to "encourage" me in my endeavors! Now this was because of her physicality not her skin color.

Am I racist because I liked her ass the most?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Thu May 11, 2017 1:24 pm

NRC wrote:I was in a spin class last night. In front of me, three girls in their twenties. We did a lot of out of the saddle riding. My fortune was in. Of the three, one of the girls was black, and of the three the black girl's ass was the most delightful to "encourage" me in my endeavors! Now this was because of her physicality not her skin color.

Am I racist because I liked her ass the most?

Nah, it just makes you an ass man.

Any pics?

BertiesBeehole · Post by **BertiesBeehole** » Thu May 11, 2017 1:41 pm

Really strange as I saw a woman this morning with a golliwog knitted figurine attached to her handbag.

The same question went through my head

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Thu May 11, 2017 2:08 pm

duncandisorderly wrote:But why? It's as much a descriptor as fat, thin, tall, short etc.

I think assuming that person is offended by their own skin colour is a bit daft, to be honest.

I think that's the problem. Sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it, that conveys the threat.
If you reverse the argument and I was the only white guy in a room full of black people, and somebody pointed me out as the white guy. I wouldn't be offended.
I don't believe the vast majority of black people would be offended either, but a small group of PC have decided, on their behalf, that this is wrong. It's ********. The only true way to be non racist is to treat everybody the same. I certainly try to. But the PC brigade try to make them a special case. It doesn't help. A bit like positive discrimination. I've always found that offensive, only because I would pick the best man for the job regardless of colour. It's not fair to white people and should be offensive to black people. It demeans their abilities.

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Thu May 11, 2017 2:51 pm

Colburn, would you be offended if the descriptor used of you was "the fat guy" or the "plum ugly guy" or "the guy that looks like a mincer"? If so, to use color as a descriptor would (in your personal terms) equally as offensive

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Thu May 11, 2017 4:45 pm

NRC wrote:Colburn, would you be offended if the descriptor used of you was "the fat guy" or the "plum ugly guy" or "the guy that looks like a mincer"? If so, to use color as a descriptor would (in your personal terms) equally as offensive

No it wouldn't. I am white, if someone described me as white, why would I be offended. I neither ashamed or proud to be white, it's just what I am.
Being fat is subjective. I might be fat to you, I might not be to somebody else, but I'm white to everybody.
I'm sure blacks feel no more shame for being black, so why would they be offended for being called black. It's an adjective, a colour, it's descriptive but it certainly isn't offensive...........UNLESS you choose it to be.
The politically correct Brigade have a lot to answer for.

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Thu May 11, 2017 4:53 pm

Not invented as Rascist, so no
But now would be deemed unacceptable
Probably wrongly
To use the term to describe someone, I would agree that because we would know better than to, that that would be deemed rascist

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Thu May 11, 2017 4:56 pm

I remember a certain Clarets fan when in a London pub saying flipping Eck look at those jungle bumnys and another claret reprimanding him, we all agreed, even me strangely, that he shouldn't have said it, but the strange thing is he was complimenting how good they looked, 3 jet black girls who were stunning, all a bit conflicting these days.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Thu May 11, 2017 5:38 pm

As I said earlier amazing that people get so offended that other people take offence.

Because I treat everyone I meet as my equal I don't offend anyone.

As I went to school in a part of Stockport in the late 1980s until early 1990s I was in fear of discrimination for being a Burnley Fan - If I'd been called Dingle I'd have been offended but only because of the intimidation attached. I think when you're up against a mob with a mob mentality that's when the name calling steps over into discrimination rather than banter. The most distasteful joke I heard about starving Africans was from my Mate who was originally born in Papua New Guinea (ended up living with a Foster Family in The UK) To say I was stunned. A form of empowerment I don't know - Jokes are such complicated things and often the person telling them uses them in an Ironic way. That's when The PC brigade causes the most harm - When someone who is genuinely not racist tells a racist joke and is taken as if they've gone all Enoch Powell. Regarding Gollywogs - was there not an episode of Extras that covered the issue.

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Thu May 11, 2017 5:43 pm

There were some folk done for dressing up as Michael Jackson by wearing Afro wigs and blackening their faces. I can't see what's racist about that. Is it racist if Leicester fans wear Jamie Vardy masks? Is Afro a racist word? Is the Black Music Awards racist?

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Thu May 11, 2017 6:23 pm

no, they are soft toys.

what is racist is the commonplace mimicking of french /mexican accents on adverts, nobody bats an eyelid, heaven help them if they tried it with an asian voice.

gollywogs are kids toys, its like saying mr potato head is potatoist.

minnieclaret · Post by **minnieclaret** » Thu May 11, 2017 6:43 pm

is this racist?
a "gag" from the 70s.
Cyrille Regis had made his England debut at Wembley against a West German side captained by European footballer of the year, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge.
After the match David Coldman interviewed Regis and asked" What did you think of Rummenigge".
Cyrille replied "What rumour's that"

I appreciate that now it's a total no-no but at the time I thought it was a very clever wordplay.
Coleman is in no way being racist but Regis mishears him OR is so used to being abused thus he just responds.

Your thoughts?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Thu May 11, 2017 6:51 pm

Firthy wrote:It's so confusing nowadays I don't even know what the correct term is anymore more.

Do we refer to them as black, coloured or ethnic.

We are people, Firthy, all of us. We all have variations in skin colour. It doesn't matter. It isn't what defines us.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Thu May 11, 2017 7:08 pm

Spijed wrote:So when people, especially the older generation, talk about taking control back from the EU and removing fear from what they can and can't say you don't think there is any link?

Hi Spijed, why do you appear to suggest that the older generation are predominantly white? Large numbers of people came to UK after WWII. That was 70 years ago. That's time for the children of this new UK citizens to now be a valued part of the older generation.

karatekid · Post by **karatekid** » Thu May 11, 2017 7:43 pm

A guy went into a tattoo parlour and asked for a tattoo of that guy from The Jam on his back.........................

!aiboforceN · Post by **!aiboforceN** » Thu May 11, 2017 7:44 pm

I think the answer's in here, somewhere...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN_0qvuhhw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

iluva64 · Post by **iluva64** » Thu May 11, 2017 8:02 pm

Aren't Gollie's...............Western Oriental Gentlemen????

mine came on a jamjar

Firthy · Post by **Firthy** » Thu May 11, 2017 8:04 pm

Paul Waine wrote:We are people, Firthy, all of us. We all have variations in skin colour. It doesn't matter. It isn't what defines us.

I couldn't give a **** if they're purple or turquoise

a persons colour is totally irrelevant to me. But people do have conversations about other people including the ethnic minorities, they're unavoidable. I'm just saying thanks to the PC brigade I haven't a clue what the correct term is any more.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Thu May 11, 2017 9:20 pm

Firthy wrote:I couldn't give a **** if they're purple or turquoise a persons colour is totally irrelevant to me. But people do have conversations about other people including the ethnic minorities, they're unavoidable. I'm just saying thanks to the PC brigade I haven't a clue what the correct term is any more.

Agree, my vocabulary won't meet the standards of the pc brigade all the time, either.

Claret and blue are great colours.