Time for public sector to stop whinging.

[nil_desperandum]

He was pointing out that registered nurses don't start on £15k. This is agenda for change bottom of band 1 which isn't used for frontline healthcare as far as I know. Nurses start on band 5.

Maybe, but no one has said whether the nurses at food banks are registered or not, or have they?
I've just found several adverts from NHS trusts advertising posts for Auxiliary nurses with pay advertised as starting at £15404.
Here's but one example:
Auxiliary Nurse
Job Reference: 164-704103

Employer:Nottingham University Hospitals
NHS Trust Department:General Surgery
Location:Queens Medical Centre Campus, Nottingham
Salary:£15,404 - £18,157 per annum

[Sidney1st]

Nottingham is cheaper to live in then London isn't it?

[taio]

Maybe, but no one has said whether the nurses at food banks are registered or not, or have they?
I've just found several adverts from NHS trusts advertising posts for Auxiliary nurses with pay advertised as starting at £15404.
Here's but one example:
Auxiliary Nurse
Job Reference: 164-704103

Employer:Nottingham University Hospitals
NHS Trust Department:General Surgery
Location:Queens Medical Centre Campus, Nottingham
Salary:£15,404 - £18,157 per annum

You asked what he said so I told you.

[Rick_Muller]

Maybe, but no one has said whether the nurses at food banks are registered or not, or have they?
I've just found several adverts from NHS trusts advertising posts for Auxiliary nurses with pay advertised as starting at £15404.
Here's but one example:
Auxiliary Nurse
Job Reference: 164-704103

Employer:Nottingham University Hospitals
NHS Trust Department:General Surgery
Location:Queens Medical Centre Campus, Nottingham
Salary:£15,404 - £18,157 per annum

You do know that an auxiliary nurse isn't actually a nurse, but someone who is an assistant to the nursing staff, so it isn't a fair reflection of a nurses actual salary.

But to me that's not the point. The discussion is about whether the public sector are rewarded enough or not, and in my opinion the nurses who I see frequently are massively overworked and stressed and I don't think they a remunerated enough.

[Sidney1st]

Nurses are overworked because their senior managers are quite possibly crap for starters.

Chuck in a possible lack of funding, or poor use of current funding and it all builds up.

[Rick_Muller]

Nurses are overworked because their senior managers are quite possibly crap for starters.

Chuck in a possible lack of funding, or poor use of current funding and it all builds up.

I don't disagree that the management in the NHS is poor Sid, I used to be one...

[Paul Waine]

Anyone that believes working in the public sector is better than the private sector, on a like for like basis, can only believe there's something structurally strange going on in the labour market. A decision to work in either is based on pay, conditions, benefits and job security (among others). Neither one can be 'better' than the other over anything but the shortest term, because everyone would seek employment in that arena which was 'best'. If pensions are better in the public sector, then one of the other factors must be worse. It doesn't make sense that one or the other is superior in every way.

Nursing and teaching are professions struggling to both recruit and retain staff already, for instance. There must be some reason for this. Take away their pensions (whilst leaving everything else the same) would lead to a mass exodus.

Hi If it be your will, good post. I agree that there are many factors that can persuade one person or another where to seek employment and the pay and benefits are best seen as a package. The numbers seeking employment in a particular area will vary over time as the "pay and benefits" package also develops over time. However, there is some "stickiness" or "friction" in the system: once you have trained for a particular profession you are more "committed" to that profession and the opportunities (because there will be personal costs) to move elsewhere will narrow for many.

I understand a number of maths and science graduates have trained as teachers (or have taken the "teach first" route), but have left having experienced the "challenges of the classroom" and have learnt how other sectors, including the financial sector, place a higher value on good maths and sciences graduates and so they move on. Of course, there are also examples of maths and science grads moving from the financial sector into teaching as a life style change later in their careers.

[taio]

Nurses are overworked because their senior managers are quite possibly crap for starters.

What's that based on coz I've heard you say this many times before? Generally speaking clinical managers in provider services such as Acute Trusts work very hard, are under significant pressure and do a good job.

[Rick_Muller]

What's that based on coz I've heard you say this many times before? Generally speaking clinical managers in provider services such as Acute Trusts work very hard, are under significant pressure and do a good job.

I can base it on experience. Why have one manager for a post when 3 will do - can't have 2 because you'll need a majority make a decision. Whilst I agree that job roles such as Equality and Diversity manager are potentially important, what we don't need is one or 2 of these roles in each and every trust earning upwards of £60k. What's wrong with having a few regional diversity managers covering all the trusts?

[taio]

I can base it on experience. Why have one manager for a post when 3 will do - can't have 2 because you'll need a majority make a decision. Whilst I agree that job roles such as Equality and Diversity manager are potentially important, what we don't need is one or 2 of these roles in each and every trust earning upwards of £60k. What's wrong with having a few regional diversity managers covering all the trusts?

I base it on experience too, but it's obviously different to yours. I was on about clinical managers who manage nursing staff because that's what was referred to.

[Rick_Muller]

I base it on experience too, but it's obviously different to yours. I was on about clinical managers who manage nursing staff because that's what was referred to.

Fair enough.

[nil_desperandum]

You do know that an auxiliary nurse isn't actually a nurse, but someone who is an assistant to the nursing staff, so it isn't a fair reflection of a nurses actual salary.
.

Sorry, that's a ridiculous post.
The point was made that nurses earn too much money to visit food banks.
If a post is advertised as "Auxiliary NURSE" on a salary of £15,404 / year, then that makes them officially a nurse in my book. What title would they put on their application form?, and if subsequently they were asked to fill in their place of employment and role on a form they would most certainly be expected to write "Auxiliary nurse".
Out of interest, (and I don't know the answer): when the government says we have recruited / funded x number of nurses, does this include or exclude auxiliaries?
I'm guessing it includes them.

[Rick_Muller]

Sorry, that's a ridiculous post.
The point was made that nurses earn too much money to visit food banks.
If a post is advertised as "Auxiliary NURSE" on a salary of £15,404 / year, then that makes them officially a nurse in my book. What title would they put on their application form?, and if subsequently they were asked to fill in their place of employment and role on a form they would most certainly be expected to write "Auxiliary nurse".
Out of interest, (and I don't know the answer): when the government says we have recruited / funded x number of nurses, does this include or exclude auxiliaries?
I'm guessing it includes them.

https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explor ... -assistant" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's not a nurse as depicted by the usual definition, i.e. A degree qualified healthcare professional. Perhaps this is where the confusion arises... are the "nurses" who go to food banks just auxiliary nurses?

[taio]

Whilst still used from time to time Auxiliary nurse is an outdated term - healthcare assistant is now the common description. To me a nurse is someone who is qualified and registered.

[nil_desperandum]

https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explor ... -assistant

It's not a nurse as depicted by the usual definition, i.e. A degree qualified healthcare professional. Perhaps this is where the confusion arises... are the "nurses" who go to food banks just auxiliary nurses?

Obviously I don't know the answer to this, but I have found adverts posted this week that are inviting applications for "Auxiliary nurses", so they certainly exist.
Are either you or Taio able to answer my query as to whether "auxiliary" nurses are included in govt statistics?
(I don't doubt the truth of what both of you are saying by the way, but the official starting salary for a "nurse" is £15404, and I strongly suspect that auxiliaries are included as nurses in govt. audits.)

[taio]

Number of jobs advertised as auxiliary nurse will be a fraction of those titled healthcare assistant. I'm not totally sure but I think for workforce stats purposes they are categorised as support staff, not nurses.

[Rick_Muller]

Obviously I don't know the answer to this, but I have found adverts posted this week that are inviting applications for "Auxiliary nurses", so they certainly exist.
Are either you or Taio able to answer my query as to whether "auxiliary" nurses are included in govt statistics?
(I don't doubt the truth of what both of you are saying by the way, but the official starting salary for a "nurse" is £15404, and I strongly suspect that auxiliaries are included as nurses in govt. audits.)

Nope, sorry mate - can't answer that, but I suspect if the politicians are trying make a point they will certainly manipulate whatever facts they like in their favour.

[Sidney1st]

I base it on experience too, but it's obviously different to yours. I was on about clinical managers who manage nursing staff because that's what was referred to.

I didn't refer to clinical managers, I'm referring to senior management, the top of the chain, not the lower end.

[taio]

I didn't refer to clinical managers, I'm referring to senior management, the top of the chain, not the lower end.

Of course there will be senior management teams, which each will include several clinical managers, that aren't up to it, but that's no different to any other sector whether that's public or private.

NHS Trusts are exceptionally challenging to operate, but on the whole they will be well led under difficult circumstances.

What are you basing your general view on that nurses are overworked because of crap senior managers, as I'd suggest that typically there are many other causes for pressure across the system?

[Sidney1st]

That's usually why lower end staff are run ragged/over worked, due to poor overall running of a business.

[taio]

That's usually why lower end staff are run ragged/over worked, due to poor overall running of a business.

There are many high performing hospitals that are well led but where staff are under pressure due to a range of other reasons.

[Sidney1st]

Let's have the reasons then.

Underfunding is usually top isn't it?
Long hours worked.
Then it's staffing levels or quality.
Then it's wages.

Have I missed anything?

[taio]

Let's have the reasons then.

Underfunding is usually top isn't it?
Long hours worked.
Then it's staffing levels or quality.
Then it's wages.

Have I missed anything?

Yes. Demand. Complexity of needs. Access to primary care. Fragile social care system. Rising expectations.

[Damo]

When people say the NHS is underfunded

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IMG_20170604_081921.jpg (260.71 KiB) Viewed 2714 times

IMG_20170604_081839.jpg (121.77 KiB) Viewed 2714 times

[Damo]

IMG_20170531_051728.jpg (232.87 KiB) Viewed 2713 times

Then you need to ask why they are spending a fortune on jobs like these.

[2 Bee Holed]

Is this the same public sector that taught me to read and write?
The one that helped me to be born and will look after me until the grave?
That will help me when I have been assaulted and protect me from criminals?
That extinguish the fire that is burning my house down?

I know what, let's give them pay cut after pay cut to show our appreciation,
whilst the private sector at least keep up with inflation. But in 40 years' time
they will then be able to feed themselves.

Oh and I suspect £32,000 p.a. in London ensures food bank visits.

[Damo]

Is this the same public sector that taught me to read and write?
The one that helped me to be born and will look after me until the grave?
That will help me when I have been assaulted and protect me from criminals?
That extinguish the fire that is burning my house down?

I know what, let's give them pay cut after pay cut to show our appreciation,
whilst the private sector at least keep up with inflation. But in 40 years' time
they will then be able to feed themselves.

Oh and I suspect £32,000 p.a. in London ensures food bank visits.

Oh they have had their pay cut now?

[TVC15]

Oh they have had their pay cut now?

In real terms yes they have - check the facts since 2011.

[BennyD]

FINALLY someone gets it...

Obviously, you don't.

[2 Bee Holed]

A 1% increase when inflation is at 2.5% is a pay cut!

All state benefits and public sector pensions also had a 1% rise (or 1.5% pay cut).

Or is this too difficult to understand?

[Rick_Muller]

Obviously, you don't.

Oh I do mate, only there isn't an emoticon for tongue firmly in cheek...

[Inchy]

A qualified nurse is a band 5 earning 22k a year, rising to 28,700 after 8 years.

When I started I was on 21k a year. After tax, pension, union fee (which is recommended for all nurses), student loan, I was clearing about 1,400 a month. If I worked nights and weekends that would rise to about 1,700.

I have never used a food bank and I think those that do are either in London or they are not managing their finances properly.

I would love a pay rise but I'm now a charge nurse and I can get by. I would rather the funding for a pay rise went directly on patient care


https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/about/ ... -pay-rates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Inchy]

Whilst still used from time to time Auxiliary nurse is an outdated term - healthcare assistant is now the common description. To me a nurse is someone who is qualified and registered.

Healthcare assistant is now outdated in some trusts , clinical support worker is now widely used.

CSWs start at band 1 rising to band 3 after a couple of years training. Band 1s start on 15.5k. I can see how they would struggle

[Lancasterclaret]

Fair play Inchy

[nil_desperandum]

I have never used a food bank and I think those that do are either in London or they are not managing their finances properly.
s

Without being intrusive Inchy. Are you a single parent who has to pay over £6000 a year in childcare costs, in order to be able to go to work?
Try subtracting that £6000 a year and then see how much that leaves you per month.
I do accept that visiting a a food bank would still be an extreme measure, but it only takes a month when the washing machine breaks down, and a couple of other relatively small expenses come in, and I can see how a nurse can easily experience significant financial difficulties.

"Healthcare assistant is now outdated in some trusts , clinical support worker is now widely used.

CSWs start at band 1 rising to band 3 after a couple of years training. Band 1s start on 15.5k. I can see how they would struggle"

That's the point I was making earlier. they are still advertised as Auxiliary Nurses in some trusts, and these may be the ones initially described as being reliant on food banks.

[Inchy]

I am married with a 1 year old.

I am currently a band 6 but I no longer work shifts so I am earning less than when I was a band 5.

I am currently paying 250 quid a month in child care. The NHS is very good for childcare. When I am back to working shifts I wouldn't need to send my son to nursery at all as my wife is also a nurse and we can work out shifts around it. I will be sending him though because of the benefits of nursery.

I do get how people struggle, but in burnley I imagine 21k-27k a year is far above average.

I have seen my bills go up but I have cut my cloth accordingly.

I would love a bit more but if you compare nurse wages to France, and Germany, I do get competitively paid.

Care support workers will struggle. Most CSWs are band 3 earning 17k-20k a year. That will be about a 5th more of they work shifts. That isn't a bad wage considering you don't need any level of qualifications past GCSEs

[nil_desperandum]

Thanks for the full reply Inchy.
It would appear therefore that you have 2 wages coming in, but still have to "cut your cloth accordingly"
Have you ever considered how much more difficult it would be if (God forbid) something were to happen to one of your wages?
[That's why I referred to a single parent with childcare costs]
Excellent posts anyway, Inchy..

[Rick_Muller]

Inchy, I think you identified the issue above. A nurses salary in Burnley is fine, but almost anywhere south it's not due to the massive difference in cost of living.

As an example, where I live (Central Bedfordshire), a 4 bed detached house is on the market for a few quid short of half a million. We visited Seaham last weekend, and a comparable house in size and quality was £180k. That's a massive difference in mortgage for two almost identical houses.

[Inchy]

I would struggle if me or my wife lost our wage but I imagine most people would.

[Inchy]

I understand that and the government do need to do something about it. A London nurse at the same level as me will get 2 or 3k more a year, which is not going to cover the cost of living down there.
It's the same in a lot of places down south. They do need to find a solution to that.

[nil_desperandum]

I would struggle if me or my wife lost our wage but I imagine most people would.

That's why I have to comment when someone attacks a nurse for going to a food bank. We just don't know what their personal circumstances are.

[taio]

Healthcare assistant is now outdated in some trusts , clinical support worker is now widely used.

CSWs start at band 1 rising to band 3 after a couple of years training. Band 1s start on 15.5k. I can see how they would struggle

I agree that clinical support worker is widely used. But healthcare assistant still is if not more so. Auxiliary nurse is rarely used. Anyway it's fairly irrelevant because whatever they are called they are valuable support staff, not nurses.

[taio]

I understand that and the government do need to do something about it. A London nurse at the same level as me will get 2 or 3k more a year, which is not going to cover the cost of living down there.
It's the same in a lot of places down south. They do need to find a solution to that.

If I remember right the coalition government several years ago was looking at regional pay to take account of labour market variations, cost of living etc. But it went quiet. The Unions were I think hugely opposed to it.

[JohnMcGreal]

Hats off to all those whinging public sector workers who responded brilliantly in London last night.

[Damo]

Hats off to all those whinging public sector workers who responded brilliantly in London last night.

Yes well done to them for doing the job they get paid to do.

[taio]

Yes well done to them for doing the job they get paid to do.

Somewhat harsh.

[ksrclaret]

Yes well done to them for doing the job they get paid to do.

Yeah, they only responded within minutes, attended to scores of injured people, kept hundreds of others out of danger...

Moaning, whinging snowflakes, the lot of them. They'll be on strike next week.

[Damo]

Somewhat harsh.

How is it harsh?

[Damo]

Moaning, whinging snowflakes, the lot of them. They'll be on strike next week.

Who's views are they?

[taio]

How is it harsh?

Because it was unnecessary flippant.