McDonnell's Lies

android · Post by **android** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:26 am

On Grenfell

Danielle Cotton (Commissioner of London Fire Brigade). "There were no issues about numbers of firefighters. The number of fires has reduced significantly over the last ten years. I would not want any further cuts - I think we've demonstrated we need the fire engines we've got - but actually on a day-to-day basis we manage very well with the resources we have."

McDonnell "The decisions to close fire stations and to cut 10,000 fire fighters and then to freeze their pay for over a decade contributed to those deaths inevitably"

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:30 am

He's not lying, he's just wrong. You can tell it's his opinion by the use of "inevitably", but if he would kindly shut the **** up that'd be great.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:32 am

There is a balance to be had.

Up here when Storm Desmond hit a couple of years ago, the emergency services got completely overwhelmed. But they would have been anyway due to the sheer scale of it.

I'm reading that the FBU say that if there had been another major fire in London, then they would have struggled to cope. Add that to clearly insufficient fire protection in high rise cities in England then he might well have a point.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:32 am

The number of deaths from fires in the home increased by 17.4% between April 2015 and March 2016, said Home Office figures. This meant there were 34 more fatalities than in the previous year.

“The decision to prioritise budget cuts ahead of public safety is another example of how out of touch this government is.

“In a fire, every second counts.

As a result of government cuts 10,000 frontline fire fighter jobs have gone since 2010 – that is one in six.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ch ... y-10624603

mdd2 · Post by **mdd2** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:35 am

McDonnell and the nascent Momentum will make the Tories look like pacifists rather then the "nasty party"
If I were a Labour MP of the centre right I would be looking to find a new job before I get deselected. We are in for some interesting if slightly worrying times ahead with a rising rather ultra left wing tide and a set of wimps and no hopers in Government.
If BJ becomes PM when TM gets the push- a block of wood with the red flag on would get in as PM next time around

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:50 am

A Labour MP of the centre right is in the wrong party to start with.

ExistentialWanderer · Post by **ExistentialWanderer** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:50 am

In fairness. Don't think they could have done any more. Nothing to do with cuts. The fire spread so quickly, even a firefighter on TV said live on the way to the scene 'How can that happen?'. Alluding to how fast it spread.
Someone dropped a bollock in that council and it seems at many up and down the country. Regardless of party who runs the council.

android · Post by **android** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:06 pm

There is nothing balanced about what McDonnell is doing and I don't see how you can claim he might have a point Lancaster when it is a direct contradiction of the Fire Chief who was on the scene.
McDonnell must know that he is wrong.
Disgusting that him and Corbyn could not stop themselves from pathetic political point scoring with such an horrific tragedy.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:52 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:A Labour MP of the centre right is in the wrong party to start with.

I don't think he is.
I can understand why Corbyn and McDonnell leech off the labour party, they know they are unelectable in the Communist Party. That's where they belong, them and Momentum, and the dinosaurs from the Unions who are the tail wagging the dog.
The paucity of talent in the Houses of Parliament on all sides of the House, is frightening, but that's democracy.

I wrote on another thread, several years ago, that the problem with modern politicians is the fact that they are professional politicians. They could swap rosettes and still talk 'party speak', still bluster through question time without answering a bloody thing. The thing that they almost universally lack is life experience.
Go back 40 -50 years, and the House was full of people who had achieved something in life, and wanted to contribute more. Doctors, Surgeons, Lawyers, Entrepreneurs, Land Owners, Trade Unionists, Bankers, Teachers.........
The modern politician goes to Uni to study politics. They sign up to one party or another and get cushy jobs as someones press secretary et al, until the time is right for them to stand for their own seat. They've never worked in a shop or a factory. Never worked the land. Never had to run a business. Yet they talk about the needs of the working class man, without any idea of what the working class man really feel or think.

Corbyn apparently, left school with no A Levels, and has never had a job in his life. The closest he gets to working class man is when he lowers himself to speak at some rally, the rest of the time he's mixing it with the fashionable left in Chelsea. It isn't just a dig at Corbyn, there are plenty of others in all parties that have this total lack of knowledge of how to run their own lives, never mind run a country. Until this problem is redressed then we are in for a long hard struggle.

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:57 pm

McDonnell is dangerous, when the riots occurred a few years ago he described the rioters as the best of our people. If he didn't stoke up the rabble rousers then the emergency services would cope.

fidelcastro · Post by **fidelcastro** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:01 pm

bfcjg wrote:McDonnell is dangerous, when the riots occurred a few years ago he described the rioters as the best of our people. If he didn't stoke up the rabble rousers then the emergency services would cope.

I'd like to know how many of the chavs who rioted back then had even heard of John McDonnell!

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:11 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:Corbyn apparently, left school with no A Levels, and has never had a job in his life. The closest he gets to working class man is when he lowers himself to speak at some rally, the rest of the time he's mixing it with the fashionable left in Chelsea. It isn't just a dig at Corbyn, there are plenty of others in all parties that have this total lack of knowledge of how to run their own lives, never mind run a country. Until this problem is redressed then we are in for a long hard struggle.

As a trial for a bigger job, there cannot be much harder than the Brexit negotiations.

David Davis was brought up on a council estate (but benefitting from a grammar school education and got a masters in business at 25).
He then worked in Tate and Lyle for ages, so presumably has a good international business skillset.
Since becoming an MP he has resigned as an MP once on principle (civil liberties), and refused to take part in Government due to another principle (tuition fees under Cameron).

I get what you are saying with Corbyn, Colburn. There are loads like him, but I do like the look of Davis, and if he gets a great Brexit deal he deserves the PM job on that alone, and the above background should reassure many people too. I just fear he is too old for the young to ever vote for him in the top job, and the Tories would need to go for someone up and coming like Raab, despite the fact I get sick of lawyers doing the PM gig.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:14 pm

I fear for the young, they are idealistic. We all were at that age. They've yet to learn that ideals don't put food on the table, or that some politicians lie.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:14 pm

I've said on previous threads that I think it's McDonnell who is the one pulling the strings. He's the one who frightens me because, although Corbyn is in my view a disgrace for all the reasons that have been previously discussed and argued, I think McDonnell is far cleverer, far more eloquent and far more strategically minded than Corbyn.

He refers to Grenfell as murder by austerity. Is he accusing all those Labour councils of putting money before lives ? The politicking of grief will eventually backfire.

Police cuts had no influence on Manchester or London Bridge and Fire Service cuts had nowt to do with Grenfell Tower, as far as we know, so it takes some gall to play the blame game at this moment in time.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:25 pm

I fear for the old.

You've taken everything great about this country, taking ownership of all its public services, decent house prices, free university education, 40 years of economic growth through partnerships with our closest neighbours and quite simply the best time to be alive in this country ever and told the next generation.

Nope, not for you, we had it all, you can't have it because we are the selfish generation.

Now how do you think the young are going to react to that?

Oh, they are voting for most left wing party for decades, and unless something drastically changes, they are going to get in as well.

Your fault oldies. Deal with it.

karatekid · Post by **karatekid** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:31 pm

They say there is real meat in their burgers .

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:59 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I fear for the old.

You've taken everything great about this country, taking ownership of all its public services, decent house prices, free university education, 40 years of economic growth through partnerships with our closest neighbours and quite simply the best time to be alive in this country ever and told the next generation.

Nope, not for you, we had it all, you can't have it because we are the selfish generation.

Now how do you think the young are going to react to that?

Oh, they are voting for most left wing party for decades, and unless something drastically changes, they are going to get in as well.

Your fault oldies. Deal with it.

You can leave out the free university education. The vast majority of the old had to work for a living between 16 and 21 - they didn't get A levels, they didn't get three years' free tuition, they didn't get student grants.

I think you're oversimplfying the effect of the EEC/EU, as well. It's all very well to say that we're rich because we were in the EU, but the obvious corollary is that the countries that weren't in the EU are poor - Switzerland, Norway? Western Europe as a whole got richer, no-one left behind - except perhaps Greece, Spain, Italy?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:02 pm

Just ignore your beliefs on the EU for a sec DSR.

The old have had far more benefits than the young have, and the young realise it.

I'm guessing you don't want a Lab govt as much as I do, put unless this one changes some of the stuff it is doing, its going to get the most left wing for generations.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Just ignore your beliefs on the EU for a sec DSR.

The old have had far more benefits than the young have, and the young realise it.

I'm guessing you don't want a Lab govt as much as I do, put unless this one changes some of the stuff it is doing, its going to get the most left wing for generations.

I'm 52, just old enough to remember Wilson & Callaghan's government. As, of course, are the old. So of course I don't want another one.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:08 pm

Well, the way its going you might spend the rest of your life living in one!

ExistentialWanderer · Post by **ExistentialWanderer** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:27 pm

Are you a reader Lancasterclaret? I have an interesting article. Hang on I think it's just your sort of thing.

Bear with me.

Found it!

'A Bear Called Paddington'.

Ahh! It's nice and snuggly and keeps you off places you shouldn't be typing gobbledygook. Ahhhh!

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:27 pm

Honestly Lancs, I don't know wether Corbyn can win a re-run of the election, but I do know that if he does Labour won't get in power again for the next 20 years. Speaking as a Socialist, and not a Communist, he would be a disaster.
Absolutely everything in life has a price to pay, wether it's your freedom in terms of security, or the taxes you pay for Education, NHS etc. You have to raise the money to pay for everything. Corbyn would stick to his plan and skint this country in no time at all. The working classes can then look forward to mass unemployment and austerity measures under the Tories. All courtesy of the Labour Party.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:30 pm

John and Jeremy are a breath of fresh air compared to the corrupted establishment .
It really is a joy watching and reading all the lies about them , obviously shows how worried they are .

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:34 pm

Joey,

what are the lies ?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:36 pm

EW, I've no idea which poster you used to be before you changed your name, but I don't have a problem with other people believing in stuff as long as its backed up by stuff.

Even Dsr can only weakly argue about the EU thing, and anyone with an ounce of fairness in their bodies will agree that the older generation have had loads more advantages than the young today have.

I'm not young, nor am I old! But I can see the attraction of the Lab policies and because of that, I can see him leading a government, if only because the current one is struggling like mad.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:43 pm

I agree with you Lancaster, on this...I think we are probably the same age.... looking forward to being able to retire but can't quite yet afford to; not rich but not poor.

It is true that the older generation have pretty much screwed it up for the youngsters.But which party is going to be able to say to the older generation that they are going to have to pay more or have less.

Oh, Hang on. The Tories just tried that but messed it up totally.

If Corbyn promises the earth to the young then they will vote for him. That means someone has to pay for it; yep, you and me......

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:44 pm

I'm a way off retiring yet HC!

But the young will pay for it as well. They probably know that, but its better than the current situation.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:46 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Even Dsr can only weakly argue about the EU thing, and anyone with an ounce of fairness in their bodies will agree that the older generation have had loads more advantages than the young today have.

Western world countries are richer now than 40 years ago, and were richer 40 years ago than they were 80 years ago, and richer 80 years ago than they were 120 years ago, and richer 120 years ago than they were 160 years ago. And the fact that the EEC/EU has been in existence over parts of the western world including the UK for the most recent of those periods, is not the primary cause of any of that wealth increase.

But don't feel too sorry for the young. For all their supposed poverty, I don't see the student union bars going bust for lack of business. I don't see the university car parks empty for lack of cars. It's a myth that houses were affordable for young people in "the olden days" - my parents both lived with their parents until they got married, and it took the combined wage of a chartered accountant and a teacher to be able to buy a Colne terraced house - and that was without running a car, that came later still. And they certainly couldn't afford to go out and get drunk.

Young people now don't have what their parents have now. But then again - they never did.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:50 pm

HatfieldClaret wrote:
If Corbyn promises the earth to the young then they will vote for him. That means someone has to pay for it; yep, you and me......

Under Labour's manifesto taxes would not have been raised for anyone earning under £80k a year.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:50 pm

"I'm a way off retiring yet HC!"

So am I, but not through choice... !!

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:52 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Under Labour's manifesto taxes would not have been raised for anyone earning under £80k a year.

That's what they say, I just don't believe it.....

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:55 pm

I'd trust Labour far more than Theresa May's Tories, who have lied and flip-flopped over every single issue over the last 18 months.

ExistentialWanderer · Post by **ExistentialWanderer** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:58 pm

I didn't know your political persuasion until I read your posts Lancaster. I just think. Rather than sprouting forth your opinions, you go back and educate yourself on politics over the past 70 years. See if you can join the dots (I know it's a child's game but we seem to be in this area) and then come back with a reasonable theorem. I don't quite grasp the concept of Socialism after it has failed after all.
Anyway. I'm interrupting on your frivolities. Do keep on spending...my wages.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:06 pm

I''m Lib Dem EW.

What I'm not, and never have been is afraid to state my opinions. You won't catch me changing my user name for whatever reason.

I don't want a Lab govt, but I don't want a the right wing of the Conservative party in power either. All I'm saying is that the young can see the attraction of the Lab manifesto, and at the moment, the Conservative party are running things badly.

That combination results in a Lab govt.

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:08 pm

I was brought up in the 60s so I guess I am one of those privileged older people who have so betrayed the young. In those days we had privileges such as having to leave school at 15 to go to work in factories, many of which were death traps. No health and safety to hold us back and tie us up in red tape. We had to wait until 1974 for that to be taken seriously.
Further education was for those who either went to Grammar School or who's parents could afford private education.Not many of them in Stoneyholme. Not much chance of "O" and "A" levels if you went to Barden or Rosegrove. If you did get to university there were no made up subjects like "media studies", "leisure studies" or "sports science". It was academic or nothing. A gap year was for "dole scroungers".

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:09 pm

If cutting costs had nothing to do with the Grenfell fire why was the more fire resistant insulation not chosen to form part of the cladding when the renovation work was carried out. If it was not to save 50 pence a metre then there must be another valid reason.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:09 pm

Where would Sean Dyche and BFC be without Sports Science Chobulous?

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:13 pm

My point exactly. Things are much better nowadays and Sean Dyche is living proof.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:23 pm

So things are better for 'made up subjects', is that what you're saying?

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:27 pm

No I am saying that access to further education is much easier nowadays, with a much wider range of subjects available to study. In the 60s it was academia or nothing, now young people can study a whole host of things that are relevant to today's society. Get over the "made up" bit. It was put in for effect.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:31 pm

With easier access to higher education, the younger generations are therefore a lot more intelligent than the older generations.

Which generation is it which votes for Brexit and the Tories?

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:41 pm

kentonclaret wrote:If cutting costs had nothing to do with the Grenfell fire why was the more fire resistant insulation not chosen to form part of the cladding when the renovation work was carried out. If it was not to save 50 pence a metre then there must be another valid reason.

Don't for one minute think that all cost cutting is down to central government. Look at British Airways for example, now you have to pay more just to guarantee sitting with your family. It's always about making money, spending less and having greater profits.

Kensington and Chelsea Council is probably one of the richest boroughs in the UK. They could have afforded fire resistant cladding. Why they didn't remains to be seen.

Would a Labour council put lives at risk to save a few quid. One would hope not.

There's a lot to be revealed yet I think,; what was contracted and what was done. It will all out itself in the judicial inquiry.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:45 pm

"the younger generations are therefore a lot more intelligent than the older generations."

rather a sweeping statement....So experience counts for nothing then ?

One of the most academically brilliant in the Commons is Boris. I take it you stand by all he says and thinks then.....

A degree in media studies or medicine doesn't make anyone more politically astute. Just look at all the degrees held by members of parliament of all parties.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:51 pm

[quote="UpTheBeehole"]With easier access to higher education, the younger generations are therefore a lot more intelligent than the older generations.

The majority appear very reluctant to display it then

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:03 pm

HatfieldClaret wrote: One of the most academically brilliant in the Commons is Boris. I take it you stand by all he says and thinks then.....

He got a 2:1, hardly academically brilliant

Claretski · Post by **Claretski** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:13 pm

And there UTB lies the rub

Most younger people are idealistic, I was myself, it is usually experience gained as you get older that allows a more balanced and reflective view of society.

There is also another factor in play as well now, social media which can have a band waggon effect and whilst yes us "oldies" do use social media (I am now obviously) we do not generally let it rule our lives.

I was discussing the "Corbyn" effect with my son in law just before the election as he had "researched" the internet and got all of the answers he needed to support him and my reply to the question as to why I wasn't voting for him was that I was voting for his and my sons future.

If the current incarnation of Labour come to power I am afraid that the country is going to face some very hard times far removed from the idealistic utopia that is being fed to the younger generation.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:14 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I fear for the old.

You've taken everything great about this country, taking ownership of all its public services, decent house prices, free university education, 40 years of economic growth through partnerships with our closest neighbours and quite simply the best time to be alive in this country ever and told the next generation.

Nope, not for you, we had it all, you can't have it because we are the selfish generation.

Now how do you think the young are going to react to that?

Oh, they are voting for most left wing party for decades, and unless something drastically changes, they are going to get in as well.

Your fault oldies. Deal with it.

Oops, Hi Lancs, how can I take back a "like" - I meant to quote. Sorry, I don't like your post.

I'm 63 - perhaps that is old in your book. I'm with my daughter and granddaughter this afternoon. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, I wouldn't do for either of them and my other children - and their friends. There is no gap between the generations - except the one the lazy media and a few left wing politicians ae trying to create and exploit.

Others have already posted that free university education was an advantage enjoyed only by a small percentage (yes, I was one). Some of my very best friends were working when they were 14, I don't see them any different from my start in life.

I'm not sure what you mean by "ownership of public services" - many public services exist today that didn't exist 30 and 40 years ago.

The economic growth that this country has enjoyed comes from the changes that Margaret Thatcher implemented in the 1980s - and the growth enjoyed with the EU comes from Thatcher's introduction of the "single market" (with a lot of EU resistance) to the EU.

I'm not sure we grew up in the best time to be alive, And, I'm not sure that the period from 1990s onwards have been that great for anyone. Only Gordon Brown thought there was "no more boom and bust" - but he gave us all "bust." That's why we have austerity today - and that is the argument why "paying as we go" is preferable to "spend now" and let our children and grandchildren pay off our debts.

Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell will go the way of earlier left wingers. They will not win a general election.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:16 pm

The Ipsos Mori Global Trtends Survey 2017 interestingly showed (by polling 15,000+ people) that baby boomers are viewed as respectful, ethical, community focused, work centric and well educated. Whereas millenials (i.e. today's young adults) are viewed as tech savvy but materialistic, lazy, arrogant and selfish. That is many countries, including our own. The words are literally those identified in the study.

I find it bizarre when putting that in the framework of the Brexit vote, the recent election and the comments above about selfish old folk. Selfishness simply isn't what those older folk do (evidenced by this survey).

More likely, much more likely, is that the young have a take, take, take culture (again, as evidenced by the survey) and the older have made decisions which the young feel do not benefit them, but the old simply feel that is incorrect. Time will tell who is right.

It would also be the case that young people now benefit far more than baby boomers, and also more than my generation, in terms of ability to work flexibly, travel, communicate and receive tax credits to help them build a good life. OK, the tuition fee thing was a balls up, and house prices are too high, but there is not a jot of sympathy from me other than that for all the whining I hear. I'm half tempted to vote Corbyn and McDonnell in and give these younger folk what they wish for.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:22 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:With easier access to higher education, the younger generations are therefore a lot more intelligent than the older generations.

Which generation is it which votes for Brexit and the Tories?

Hi UpTheBeehole, if there are more people at uni - it might mean that there are more well educated people, or it just might men that the standards required to access uni have been lowered.

I don't think we can claim that young people are cleverer than old people. And, I do think that age and experience has a value that can add to the learning of the older generations. Some young people will be better educated than some older people, but ask yourself, who is doing the educating?

I don't want to get into brexit - so last year, don't you think?

And, I won't argue that votes by the electorate should be weighted in favour of the clever or intelligent (or the not clever and not intelligent). Let's not get into an intergenerational argument. There is one thing that (we hope) is certain, the people who are young today will one day be old.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:24 pm

My post was in direct reply to Colburn Clarets post.

1) the public sector sells off of water/gas/electric and the shares herein.

2) Thatcher was an important part of the economic growth, but large sectors of the country needed more help than they got, and the effects are still being seen today.

3) Economic growth is linked to the membership of the EU. Take it away if you want blue passports, but we will take a hit.

4) Great, your kids and grandkids want to spend now, thats why they are voting Labour.

5) In a purely historical context, and this is backed up by a lot of research, the past forty years have been brilliant and the best time to be alive in this country.

Arguing on here won't change the fact that a large percentage of people younger than me are prepared to make you pay more so they can have the same chances that you had.

I can understand why you don't want that, but they don't.

Add that to a pretty incompetent govt, and you have a problem.