Junckers vision of a United States of Europe.

[ClaretMoffitt]

What's everyone who's interested thoughts on it? There are many vocal people on here about the subject so quite surprised nothing has been made for it yet. Many of the things we we're told by remain in the referendum to be scaremongering and falsehoods have now been confirmed. Adopting the Euro will be mandatory, there are plans for an "EU defence" and a centralized EU bank.

More interested to know what the remain voters think of it, is this the future you envisioned for Britain last June? Do you like the idea of a more intertwined relationship with the EU?

All these things would have likely meant bigger contributions, do you think they would have been worth it? Have any of his plans surprised you?

[Walton]

I'm surprised you haven't seen your mate Ringo's meltdown over this, on the other thread.

Poor lad doesn't understand how elections work you see.

[Lowbankclaret]

It is what we feared, German domination of Europe.

They could not achieve it with the gun but they sure are this way. whilst I am drawing a comparison I don't mean they will start to kill people.

Europe really needs to fear these new moves, unelected people grabbing more and more power, scary.

[evensteadiereddie]

Love it.

[Walton]

It is what we feared, German domination of Europe.

They could not achieve it with the gun but they sure are this way. whilst I am drawing a comparison I don't mean they will start to kill people.

Europe really needs to fear these new moves, unelected people grabbing more and more power, scary.

FFS. The European Parliament IS elected.

[summitclaret]

His vision is shite. Simples. He won't be satisfied until Greece and the like explode. Trying to have a single economy etc for northern and southern europe and the Balkens is utter madness.

It is a gravy train and thank goodness we are leaving it.

Listen to James Dyson and see the wide new world.

[nil_desperandum]

It is what we feared, German domination of Europe.
.

It's just one man's speech, and he's not German.

[Imploding Turtle]

It is what we feared, German domination of Europe.

They could not achieve it with the gun but they sure are this way. whilst I am drawing a comparison I don't mean they will start to kill people.

Europe really needs to fear these new moves, unelected people grabbing more and more power, scary.

How many times a day does your shadow frighten you?

[Rick_Muller]

This wouldn't have occurred if we had remained in the EU, such was our position of power.

[Damo]

I'm surprised you haven't seen your mate Ringo's meltdown over this, on the other thread.

Poor lad doesn't understand how elections work you see.

To be fair, there's plenty of others who don't.
Labour won the last one apparently.
Also there's a few on here who don't know how referendums work

[CrosspoolClarets]

Let's get one thing clear. The EU is a sovereign entity of interdependant nations rather than independant nations, thus Juncker has a right to be elected, which he is, as it's leader. He has a right to set out his vision too.

There are areas of policy where the European Union exercises supreme authority, thus by definition they are sovereign in these areas. Juncker is one of the bosses, he has a big say in future direction, it's naive to think otherwise.

The issue is whether you want to be part of a sovereign NATION or whether you want your nation to be less independant and thus to have a much reduced say in it's own future because you like the way the EU is heading. Clearly some of us want one thing, and others another.

I view us as a great country, in fact one of the greatest. We have had our wobbles but I want us to stay independant but have many friends and allies.

I view the EU as being well intentioned yet multi-cultural, in league with the rich bankers, and power hungry, and the bigger it gets the more they have to wield that power by threatening nations that rock the boat. The main threat, as the Greek crisis proves, is always to boot a nation out of the Euro. I view the cultures as being too disparate and the economies too. It won't collapse, but it will be chaotic, possibly for decades. Juncker's speech epitomised that for me.

[Spijed]

Also there's a few on here who don't know how referendums work

And there's a few that have the opinion that any remainers should be completely ignored, even if they have valid concerns.

MP's like John Redwood seem to think people with valid issues over leaving shouldn't be listened to, and are just causing trouble, even if they have genuine worries.

[Bin Ont Turf]

To be fair, there's plenty of others who don't.
Labour won the last one apparently.
Also there's a few on here who don't know how referendums work

I think that for the 'Labour victory' the official line from the white handkerchief waving sandal wearers on here, was that millions and millions of young people (unverifiable, but that doesn't matter) voted for Labour and anyone who was over a certain age who didn't vote Labour should have been ignored, or shouldn't have been able to vote in the first place.

A bit like the whole EU vote really, which they (white handkerchief waving sandal wearers) lost, apparently because of thick middle aged racists.

[Lowbankclaret]

FFS. The European Parliament IS elected.

The real power brokers are not elected, the puppets are.

As an MEP Farage cannot put forward any laws nor any other MEP's.

[IanMcL]

A European stock market was the first issue raised by France and Germany, to handle all the Euro transactions. Paris and Frankfurt being the places vying for the billions/trillions of business. London will fall away in importance as a result. A non European partner doing their finances is a non starter.

This is a large % of GDP.

[Lowbankclaret]

How many times a day does your shadow frighten you?

Nothing frightens me IT.

[claretspice]

Virtually everything Juncker is apparently advocating would require a treaty change, which requires unanimity. So the fact Juncker is in favour doesn't mean very much at all

Juncker, whatever his title, is effectively head of the civil service. As others have pointed out he is actually elected, unlike the head of our domestic civil service: its one of the great irony of the last 18 months that for all its flaws, the EU goes to lengths to be more democratic at more levels than virtually any national democracy.

But still, he has no power of his own. So frankly, i couldn't care less what he had to say.

[claretspice]

It is what we feared, German domination of Europe.

They could not achieve it with the gun but they sure are this way. whilst I am drawing a comparison I don't mean they will start to kill people.

Europe really needs to fear these new moves, unelected people grabbing more and more power, scary.

This is either parody, or pure and simple xenophobia.

[Lowbankclaret]

A European stock market was the first issue raised by France and Germany, to handle all the Euro transactions. Paris and Frankfurt being the places vying for the billions/trillions of business. London will fall away in importance as a result. A non European partner doing their finances is a non starter.

This is a large % of GDP.

Good, those bastards cost us years of austerity.

I trust our engineers will continue to create wealth for the country when those ***** are on the dole.

[claretspice]

Good, those bastards cost us years of austerity.

I trust our engineers will continue to create wealth for the country when those ***** are on the dole.

Are you serious? Good lord, you might be.

[Lowbankclaret]

It's just one man's speech, and he's not German.

Which country is driving force behind the EU.
Is it France, erm No.
is it Holland, erm no
Spain?
Greece??
Italy??

[Lowbankclaret]

Are you serious? Good lord, you might be.

yes I am, this country had a great engineering base, Lucas had 7 factories in Burnley .

the banks acted with integrity back then, bunch of the thieving bastards now.

however we still have a base of great companies strangled by the EU who will thrive once we are away from the hold of the EU.

[claretspice]

Which country is driving force behind the EU.
Is it France, erm No.
is it Holland, erm no
Spain?
Greece??
Italy??

Its all of them, Lowbank. Because that is what the rules, written down in black and white, require.

The facts don't fit your xenophobic narrative im afraid.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Some of you might think this EU army is a pipe dream but I've heard reports a small German army has descended on North London tonight. I've no doubt this was under the orders of Drunker (lol I know that's not his name but I'm funny like that). All you remoaners (ha I mean remainders but again I'm just too funny with words) will no doubt claim it's nothing to do with the EU and bury your heads in the sands while these unelected clowns reign over us.

God Save the Queen.

[claretspice]

yes I am, this country had a great engineering base, Lucas had 7 factories in Burnley .

the banks acted with integrity back then, bunch of the thieving bastards now.

however we still have a base of great companies strangled by the EU who will thrive once we are away from the hold of the EU.

Absolute ********. Our manufacturing industries didn't decline because of the EU. The declined for lots of other reasons, but virtually every exporter that is left expects to suffer, not gain, from Brexit.

[Paul Waine]

A European stock market was the first issue raised by France and Germany, to handle all the Euro transactions. Paris and Frankfurt being the places vying for the billions/trillions of business. London will fall away in importance as a result. A non European partner doing their finances is a non starter.

This is a large % of GDP.

Hi Ian, I believe you are referring to the EU's desire to take control of euro clearing, moving it from a London based clearing house (usually abbreciated as CCP) to one of the European financial centres. (There already are stock markets in all the EU member states, but none are as large/significant as the London Stock Exchange).

There are many reasons why splitting up a clearing house is not a great idea - it won't help financial stability, it may make the risk of financial crisis greater.

But, this is politics, not economics and financial regulation and stability.

[IanMcL]

You are right Paul. Yes it is about the politics but will cost London dearly.

[tiger76]

FFS. The European Parliament IS elected.

The European Commission is not elected, they are appointed and are the real power base.

[claretspice]

The European Commission is not elected, they are appointed and are the real power base.

They arent the power base. Thats the council of ministers - elected representatives.

The Commission are the civil service. This doesnt change the more times people try and say otherwise. It is a black and white fact.

[Lowbankclaret]

Absolute ********. Our manufacturing industries didn't decline because of the EU. The declined for lots of other reasons, but virtually every exporter that is left expects to suffer, not gain, from Brexit.

manufacturing declined bavaise Thatcher decided service industries would become the wealth creator of this country, she was wrong as time will show.

Out manufacturing industry is competitive, I know I see the the worldwide quotes.

the EU holds us back with crazy legislation.

[Lowbankclaret]

They arent the power base. Thats the council of ministers - elected representatives.

The Commission are the civil service. This doesnt change the more times people try and say otherwise. It is a black and white fact.

#brainwashed, needs to see the real light.

[claretspice]

#brainwashed, needs to see the real light.

Nope, its a fact. Sorry.

[claretspice]

manufacturing declined bavaise Thatcher decided service industries would become the wealth creator of this country, she was wrong as time will show.

Out manufacturing industry is competitive, I know I see the the worldwide quotes.

the EU holds us back with crazy legislation.

So, if Thatcher destroyed our manufacturing industries, we're not blaming the EU. Glad weve sorted that out.

[ClaretMoffitt]

Anyone actually a fan of any of these ideas of his? 48% of the population voted remain; and about 75% of this board, so surely some must?

[Garnerssoap]

I have sandals and a white handkerchief but I still think Juncker's a cnut

[Lowbankclaret]

So, if Thatcher destroyed our manufacturing industries, we're not blaming the EU. Glad weve sorted that out.

Well Thatcher started the decline, the workers don't help at times, but the EU have imposed rules which put us at a disadvantage.

[CrosspoolClarets]

It's a bit misleading to describe the Commission as being like our civil service, because our civil service are politically neutral, whereas the Commission is anything but.

The Commission is also incredibly open (to their credit, in a way) and lobbyists take full advantage, whereas our civil service doesn't tend to be lobbied in the same manner.

That's why I think the banks and huge companies hold so much sway in the EU whereas here, yes, they do have a big say but I don't think it is quite the same.

[Paul Waine]

You are right Paul. Yes it is about the politics but will cost London dearly.

Hi Ian, the "streetwise professor" covered this in a blog, 30-May-2017:

streetwiseprofessor.com/

Clearing Fragmentation Follies: We’re From the European Commission, and We’re Here to Help You

Earlier this month came news that the European Commission was preparing legislation that would require clearing of Euro derivatives to take place in the Eurozone, rather than in the UK, which presently dominates. This has been an obsession with the Euros since before Brexit: Brexit has only intensified the efforts, and provided a convenient rationalization for doing so.

The stated rationale is that the EU (and the ECB) need regulatory control over clearing of Euro-denominated derivatives because a problem at the CCP that clears them could have destabilizing effects on the Eurozone, and could necessitate the ECB providing liquidity support to the CCP in the event of trouble. If they are going to support it in extremis, they are going to need to have oversight, they claim.

Several things to note here. First, it is possible to have a regulatory line of sight without having jurisdiction. Note that the USD clearing business at LCH is substantially larger than the € clearing business there, yet the Fed, the Treasury, and Congress are fine with that, and are not insisting that all USD clearing be done stateside. They realize that there are other considerations (which I discuss more below): to simplify, they realize that London has become a dominant clearing center for good economic reasons, and that the economies of scale and scope clearing mean that concentration of clearing produces some efficiencies. Further, they realize that it is possible to have sufficient information to ensure that the foreign-domiciled CCP is acting prudently and not taking undue risks.

*********************
These are just the opening paras - worth looking at the full blog, if you are interested.

[SonofPog]

Anyone actually a fan of any of these ideas of his? 48% of the population voted remain; and about 75% of this board, so surely some must?

Pretty much aye,

EU defence union: with trump and NATO not having the power it once had makes sense.
This leads to an EU standing army: like we have troops employed by NATO, I have no problem with, our navy uses French aircraft carriers, we have no planes for our new one currently. Combined operations is the current normal. Might as well traintogether under the same banner.

EU Cyber security: we currently share intel, a permanent cyber security divison, with EU wide jurisdiction is nessecary.
Increased schengen area: if you're in the EU you should be able to travel without hinderance, if your country of origin is so riddled with terrorists or whatever, then that country shouldn't be in the EU anyway.

Confirmed no Turkey for foreseeable future: good, I was worried with having to go into an agreement with them over the migrant crisis, that their current serious backsliding on civil liberties would be ignored. It wasn't, it quite harsh terms for a diplomat.

Finance minister: well might get them to actual release some accounts once in a while , not bothered.

Unified Elected president: we currently have four EU presidents.."Europe would be easier to understand if one captain was steering the ship" don't disagree, as long as each body also maintains its electing process.

Transnation MEPs: tbh not bothered, could work, we elect by region.If I like that French bloke promising to not back an EU army, or that Dutch lass who has a good idea for unifying corporation taxes, why shouldn't I be able to vote for them?

More help to Join the Euro / have to join the Euro: you cannot have monetary unification without political and visa versa, although there does need to be a clearer plan for countries such as Greece that are tanking to recover, rather than the usual IMF / world bank, kill or cure method.

Probably come as no surprise that I'm a federalist though

[Lancasterclaret]

Dunno why I'm bothering but hey, why not?

He's got some good ideas, and some pie in the sky ideas, and the main point is that just because he says it, does not make it so.

Europe needs to plan for the next ten/twenty years.

We don't bother with planning these days, and rely on hyperbole and ignoring unpleasant facts.

[Lancasterclaret]

I used to be a federalist, but I don't think we are mature enough as countries/people to make that step yet.

[Tall Paul]

Well Thatcher started the decline, the workers don't help at times, but the EU have imposed rules which put us at a disadvantage.

Which rules?

[Lancasterclaret]

I can't take two threads where the level of belmtardary is reaching peak levels.

[Damo]

Absolute ********. Our manufacturing industries didn't decline because of the EU. The declined for lots of other reasons, but virtually every exporter that is left expects to suffer, not gain, from Brexit.

That's another argument in favour of Brexit then, given the trade deficit.
Also, please quantify this with some quotes from UK exporters, just so we all don't assume you pulled that statement out of your backside

[Bin Ont Turf]

He's got some good ideas, and some pie in the sky ideas, and the main point is that just because he says it, does not make it so.

A bit like the Tories and Nigel Farage?

[Damo]

I can't take two threads where the level of belmtardary is reaching peak levels.

You contributed to both. Therefore you contributed to the belmtardary. As did i

[dsr]

Well Thatcher started the decline, the workers don't help at times, but the EU have imposed rules which put us at a disadvantage.

The cotton mills of Colne were closing long before 1979. Then, as now, cheaper labour abroad was the problem. Import of cheap labour from India and Pakistan was only a short-term fix.

[Vino blanco]

Buy him another bottle of claret whilst he sticks his nose deeper in the EU trough.

[Lancasterclaret]

You contributed to both. Therefore you contributed to the belmtardary. As did i

Trying to correct people who don't have a scooby is something I'm always happy to do!

But yup, I should just leave them to it.

[Vegas Claret]

Junkers is a cockwomble