Junckers vision of a United States of Europe.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:54 am

That'll work well; Japanese cars competing against German cars and will be even cheaper than they are now, no wonder the Japanese want a free trade deal. Remember, all these deals are for each National interest not the good of the people. If they benefit, it's a bonus.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:02 pm

The pound is on the way up due to the talk of interest rates inevitably rising. When they do, expect the wotsit to hit the fan irrespective of our government's bravado when dealing with the EU. Any perceived position of strength would evaporate overnight as, yet again, our standards of living fall.

It is a fact that the uncertainty over Brexit has cost the families quoted above the amounts stated.
BenyD talks of "no good, apparently can come of Brexit". Well, so far - in real and practical terms - he's dead right. We have a dead Prime Minister, a floundering, blustering negotiating team interested only in soundbites and a yet unknown successor to May waiting to see how much further she can be allowed to fall.
Still, you never know but I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about a bogey - man politician like Juncker giving his thoughts on his people's future.
Mind you, I wish ours had an idea where to start..................

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:04 pm

BennyD wrote:The pound is on the way up, but I suppose that was down to Junkers' speech. Hang on, how does that work? It must be, as no good, apparently can come of Brexit.

No firm evidence as yet to say it's on the way up. It had a mini-revival in the last couple of days after the announcement of the great news for those with mortgages that there "might" be a rise in interest rates. (This in itself prompted by the high rate of inflation).
The pound may be on the way up, but you can't predict that based on 2 days activity, based on a knee-jerk reaction to something that might not even happen.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:07 pm

BennyD wrote:That'll work well; Japanese cars competing against German cars and will be even cheaper than they are now, no wonder the Japanese want a free trade deal. Remember, all these deals are for each National interest not the good of the people. If they benefit, it's a bonus.

So Japan and the EU agreeing a free trade deal will be bad for both economies. Right? That's your analysis?

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:50 pm

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:56 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:So Japan and the EU agreeing a free trade deal will be bad for both economies. Right? That's your analysis?

No, of course it isn't, well not yet. It's good for Japanese manufacturing (possibly to the detriment of EU manufacturing) and good for the EU as it tries to offset the loss of the U.K economy with a much needed influx of funds from the Japanese. However, you can bet your bottom dollar that it has all been costed out and both sides will aim to benefit the most from the deal. There's no such thing as a free ride in Europe however much the remoaners claim otherwise and just you watch, if the Japanese start to hurt the German car industry the terms and conditions of the agreement will start to change, and you can bet it will always be in the EUs favour.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:07 pm

BennyD wrote:No, of course it isn't. Yet. It's good for Japanese manufacturing (possibly to the detriment of EU manufacturing) and good for the EU as it tries to offset the loss of the U.K economy. However, you can bet your bottom dollar that it has all been costed out and both sides will aim to benefit the most from the deal. There's no such thing as a free ride in Europe however much the remoaners claim otherwise.

And yet Johnson, Redwood etc. Claim we will somehow get a great trade deal for Britain. Why are we in a better position than the EU?

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:08 pm

Spijed wrote:And yet Johnson, Redwood etc. Claim we will somehow get a great trade deal for Britain. Why are we in a better position than the EU?

Be honest, if we come out of all this better than we were before, would you be gutted?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:08 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:A good reason for the EU perhaps, yes.

And, you'd think the UK should be selfish and block the EU developing in the way described because a federal Europe doesn't fit with the UK's plans?

Or, if the UK leaves, won't enabling the EU27 to develop into the United States of Europe also enable the UK to develop more strongly?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:23 pm

It's London fashion week.

The BBC sent a reporter along. The reporter asked a designer several questions. Then said, "how bad have the effects of brexit been for you?" (Spot the loaded and biased question!). The designer replied, "well the pounds value has had an effect but I've been in the industry for over 30 years and there's always been ups and downs. And we've had to adjust accordingly. On the flip side it meens that it does make our product really competitive when selling abroad to America, Japan, India and China. What I and others I've spoke to, are keen to see are the trade deal with America. That could open up some really exiting and lucrative opportunities!"

"So brexit doesn't concern you?" She was asked.

"No, I'm positive going forward" she said.

Meanwhile the self-loathing, Anglophobia and dreams of economic masochism, flourish amongst the tiny gaggle of Up The Clarets message board, Remoaners.

Enjoy Anfield lads, but if we lose. Remember it's definately not because of Brexit, Nigel Farage, Boris or the Daily Mail.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:30 pm

I'll be honest while I can see the fear of the low pound, my business has never had as many export orders. We're a specialist Mod subculture business so it should have screwed us being so British culture orientated but our overseas sales have quadrupled since the Brexit vote and Stirling's' subsequent fall in value... we are now a viable option for orders Worldwide.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:42 pm

elwaclaret wrote:I'll be honest while I can see the fear of the low pound, my business has never had as many export orders. We're a specialist Mod subculture business so it should have screwed us being so British culture orientated but our overseas sales have quadrupled since the Brexit vote and Stirling's' subsequent fall in value... we are now a viable option for orders Worldwide.

Stop talking the country down

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:59 pm

Spijed wrote:And yet Johnson, Redwood etc. Claim we will somehow get a great trade deal for Britain. Why are we in a better position than the EU?

Because whatever happens, we are not saddled with a failing one-size-fits all economy and associated currency.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:45 pm

elwaclaret wrote:I'll be honest while I can see the fear of the low pound, my business has never had as many export orders. We're a specialist Mod subculture business so it should have screwed us being so British culture orientated but our overseas sales have quadrupled since the Brexit vote and Stirling's' subsequent fall in value... we are now a viable option for orders Worldwide.

Hi elwa, where can I buy some - before it's all sold out?

UTC

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:53 pm

elwaclaret wrote:I'll be honest while I can see the fear of the low pound, my business has never had as many export orders. We're a specialist Mod subculture business so it should have screwed us being so British culture orientated but our overseas sales have quadrupled since the Brexit vote and Stirling's' subsequent fall in value... we are now a viable option for orders Worldwide.

I don't think anyone anywhere has ever suggested that a weak pound doesn't help many exporters.
It's the other consequences of a weak pound that hurt a lot of people and the country.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:55 pm

Be honest, if we come out of all this better than we were before, would you be gutted?

I'll be chuffed to bits.

Problem is to do that we'd need a plan and some very effective leadership.

We've neither, and until the govt accept the reality of the situation it will continue to get worse, and the expectation levels of people who voted Brexit for the wrong reasons will make it harder than ever to admit that reality.

The longer they wait, the worse the damage will be.

mikeS · Post by **mikeS** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:58 pm

Britain could have been a major influence in Europe instead of pulling out. The Europeans must be counting down the days to when We leave so they can set up a United States of Europe, European bank, European army etc etc.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:09 pm

If its the ultimate aim of having an army, central bank etc then we could only delay the inevitable and even then a pro EU PM would roll over quick enough.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:32 pm

mikeS wrote:Britain could have been a major influence in Europe instead of pulling out. The Europeans must be counting down the days to when We leave so they can set up a United States of Europe, European bank, European army etc etc.

There was never any chance of us being anything other than Europe's bitch. The Germans are the power house with france being their snidy little sidekick. The USE would have happened with us or without us and we would have been powerless to stop it.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:57 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'll be chuffed to bits.

Problem is to do that we'd need a plan and some very effective leadership.

We've neither, and until the govt accept the reality of the situation it will continue to get worse, and the expectation levels of people who voted Brexit for the wrong reasons will make it harder than ever to admit that.

That's really quite arrogant and condescending; people who voted to leave did so because they thought it the best thing for us to do and just because you don't agree with them, doesn't mean you voted remain for the 'right reasons'. Your opinion is no more valid then theirs is. Whatever you think will happen may or may not and only time will tell.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:15 pm

BennyD wrote:That's really quite arrogant and condescending; people who voted to leave did so because they thought it the best thing for us to do and just because you don't agree with them, doesn't mean you voted remain for the 'right reasons'. Your opinion is no more valid then theirs is. Whatever you think will happen may or may not and only time will tell.

This must be the first time a Brexiteer has ever accused a Remainer of being arrogant and condescending.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:01 pm

By wrong reasons, I mean "outright lies"

If that is condescending, then I'm sorry, but people voted Brexit based on promises that will not happen.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:17 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:This must be the first time a Brexiteer has ever accused a Remainer of being arrogant and condescending.

You are, of course, wrong; I've done it several times before on this forum. Ok IT, what do you call someone who, having voted with a minority, then accuse the majority of being stupid and wrong because they didn't have the same view of the future. Then they try and 're-educate' the majority by trying every which way to get the result reversed. Personally, I can think of several words to replace arrogant and condescending, but they wouldn't get past the swear filter.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:19 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:By wrong reasons, I mean "outright lies"

If that is condescending, then I'm sorry, but people voted Brexit based on promises that will not happen.

And people most probably voted remain because of the outright lies peddled by the remoaners that did not happen and may well never happen.

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:21 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:By wrong reasons, I mean "outright lies"

If that is condescending, then I'm sorry, but people voted Brexit based on promises that will not happen.

So the remain side didn't put forward any downright lies..

There were a few corkers to be fair. The WW3 one being right up there.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:23 pm

BennyD wrote:You are, of course, wrong; I've done it several times before on this forum. Ok IT, what do you call someone who, having voted with a minority, then accuse the majority of being stupid and wrong because they didn't have the same view of the future. Then they try and 're-educate' the majority by trying every which way to get the result reversed. Personally, I can think of several words to replace arrogant and condescending, but they wouldn't get past the swear filter.

I guess sarcasm is above you.

And he didnt call the majority stupid and wrong, he said their reason for voting the way they did was wrong, which is true because they voted Leave to gain powers we already had and save money to fund the NHS which we would neither save nor fund the NHS with.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:27 pm

Which ones Benny?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:29 pm

Right_winger wrote:So the remain side didn't put forward any downright lies..

There were a few corkers to be fair. The WW3 one being right up there.

"Both sides did it" isn't a defence. And the WW3 wasn't a lie, it was scaremongering that was roundly mocked by both sides.

I don't recall many of your lot calling out Vote Leave for their lies and scaremongering, or UKIP for their lies over the years. I've even enjoyed some of you defending Farage when he placed the blame on him being late for an appointment on immigration - after traffic made him late.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:30 pm

BennyD wrote:And people most probably voted remain because of the outright lies peddled by the remoaners that did not happen and may well never happen.

Which lies? List some.

claretandy · Post by **claretandy** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:32 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:

Which lies? List some.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:52 pm

[quote="claretandy"][/quote]

So what you're saying is you can only come up with two lies. The promise not to resign, and the promise to invoke A50 on June 24th.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:57 pm

[quote="claretandy"][/quote]

Great list there Andy! It's good that people have a list to remind them of the lies and fear that were spread by the Remain side.

Here's a couple more to add.

Alistair Darling - "A Leave vote would see confidence in the UK economy evaporate over night"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... uk-economy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David "if there's a vote for Leave. I'll have been given a mandate from the British people and I'll carry on" Cameron.
Claimed that "a vote to Leave would be like putting a nuclear bomb under the uk economy"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... uk-economy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just a couple more Remoaner Whoppers for the collection pal.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:58 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Great list there Andy! It's good that people have a list to remind them of the lies and fear that were spread by the Remain side.

Here's a couple more to add.

Alistair Darling - "A Leave vote would see confidence in the UK economy evaporate over night"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... uk-economy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David "if there's a vote for Leave. I'll have been given a mandate from the British people" Cameron

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... uk-economy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just a couple more Remoaner Whoppers for the collection pal.

And I see Boris is still coming out with the rubbish that the NHS could benefit from an extra £350 million per week.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:05 pm

Spijed wrote:And I see Boris is still coming out with the rubbish that the NHS could benefit from an extra £350 million per week.

Now that's an actual verifiable lie, (and so easy to check too) , whereas much of the other stuff - on both sides - were predictions or opinions.
If anyone ever takes Johnson seriously again, after today's article then they will deserve to get him as PM.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:09 pm

Just seen that bus on news again today.

It still doesn't say that we'll spend an extra 350m a week on the NHS.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:12 pm

As for Osbornes screamer. That there'd have to be "an emergency budget the morning after a vote to leave."

Far left LBC radio presenter James Obrian, tried desparately to claim it wasn't a lie by this lie!!!

"Osborne said there'd have to be an emergency budget, the morning after a vote. He couldn't cos Teresa May sacked him!"

Sorry my champagne socialist chum. But Gideon was still chancellor the morning after the vote and remained so till 13 July 2016 !!!!!

And if there really was any need for an "emergency budget the morning after a vote to leave." Then surely it would have to had been implemented by whoever was chancellor!!?

We're STILL WAITING!!!!

But it doesn't stop Remoaners like Lefty Posh Boy, Obrian, spewing lies about lies about lies!!

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:16 pm

A recent survey showed that 22% of those that voted to Remain. Would be happy for the UK to take an economic down turn so that they could say that they were Right!

Self loathing, Anglophobic and weird economic masochists.

And I reckon most of 'em are the tiny gaggle of Up The Clarets message board Remoaners!!

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:29 pm

Two consecutive posts, Ringo, the same old self - opiniated stuff, the inability to even acknowledge other possibilities, the odd words in capital letters, I'm sure you're bordering on autism.
Most of your comments concerning the Clarets seem very reasonable, yet your MO regarding any form of political debate is quite bizarre.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:34 pm

4th official at Anfield shows 4 minutes of extra time in the Remoaner living room.

"I don't bloody believe It!? 4 minutes!? Bloody Brexit!"

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:36 pm

HatfieldClaret wrote:Just seen that bus on news again today.

It still doesn't say that we'll spend an extra 350m a week on the NHS.

Then why even mention the NHS?

Boris Johnson is a plain and simple liar, and dishonest as well.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:39 pm

HatfieldClaret wrote:Just seen that bus on news again today.

It still doesn't say that we'll spend an extra 350m a week on the NHS.

This is what he said:
The UK, he argued, would be "roughly" £350m better off once it had "settled its accounts" with the EU and he said it would be "fine" if "a lot of that money" was spent on the health service
So he definitely quoted £350 million a week - (well "roughly") - when the audited figures from the treasury tell us its £161 million net.
Ok, he didn't specifically say today that it would be spent on the NHS, but he's still misleading the gullible with a fantasy figure, that is verifiably incorrect and has been acknowledged as such - even by Farage.
If Johnson is either too lazy or incompetent to fact check then he is unsuited to high office, alternatively - he's just a bad liar.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:40 pm

Spijed wrote:Then why even mention the NHS?

Boris Johnson is a plain and simple liar, and dishonest as well.

Point 1. Well i suppose if you are going to say that we'll save a load of money the next obvious question is to ask what we may do with it. They should have put that in smaller letters so they could add other good causes.

Point 2. He's a politician. Not sure which lies you refer to though....

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:40 pm

Europe wants to join Dyche.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:46 pm

HatfieldClaret wrote:Point 1. Well i suppose if you are going to say that we'll save a load of money the next obvious question is to ask what we may do with it. They should have put that in smaller letters so they could add other good causes.

Point 2. He's a politician. Not sure which lies you refer to though....

By plastering such statements all over a bus kinda gave the impression that the NHS would benefit, don't you think?

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:57 pm

Burnley have just achieved a fantastic draw at one of the world's most famous grounds.

We currently sit 6th in the premier league.

We've played at spurs, Chelsea and Liverpool and with 5 points from a possible 9, remain unbeaten away from home!

And still the whinging , whining Remoaners want to carry on re- runing the referendum debate they lost. Stop bathing in misery. You lost. Get over it.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:04 pm

We drew, 1-1.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:08 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:We drew, 1-1.

That's Right! We'd have trounced 'em 10 - nowt, if it wasn't for bloody Brexit. Wouldn't we smiler!!!!

The long winter evenings must ******* fly by in your house

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:17 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Which lies? List some.

House prices would collapse and there would have to be an immediate budget to shore up a badly hit economy.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:24 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:This is what he said:
The UK, he argued, would be "roughly" £350m better off once it had "settled its accounts" with the EU and he said it would be "fine" if "a lot of that money" was spent on the health service
So he definitely quoted £350 million a week - (well "roughly") - when the audited figures from the treasury tell us its £161 million net.
Ok, he didn't specifically say today that it would be spent on the NHS, but he's still misleading the gullible with a fantasy figure, that is verifiably incorrect and has been acknowledged as such - even by Farage.
If Johnson is either too lazy or incompetent to fact check then he is unsuited to high office, alternatively - he's just a bad liar.

Hi nil_d, if I was making this argument (which I'm not) I'd say £350m a week will be available for the UK to allocate to public spending of the UK's choice - and that the £190m/week (£350 minus £160, roughly) that the EU currently spends (or does this include our rebate? I forget) would be better spent by the UK making the decision directly, rather than fitting into the EU expenditure schemes.

However, I'm not making that argument. Maybe one day, though, we will discover that that is what BJ means....

Not something to get terribly excited about whichever way any of us voted.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:31 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:This must be the first time a Brexiteer has ever accused a Remainer of being arrogant and condescending.

Imploding Turtle wrote: I guess sarcasm is above you.

And he didnt call the majority stupid and wrong, he said their reason for voting the way they did was wrong, which is true because they voted Leave to gain powers we already had and save money to fund the NHS which we would neither save nor fund the NHS with.

Hi IT, I'm guessing that both your posts above include a little "sarcasm." Is there an emoji that you could add so that none of us miss it when you do that?