Junckers vision of a United States of Europe.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:56 pm

What the hell has a great result at Anfield got to do with the Brexit debate?

Asking for humanity

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:02 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi nil_d, if I was making this argument (which I'm not) I'd say £350m a week will be available for the UK to allocate to public spending of the UK's choice - and that the £190m/week (£350 minus £160, roughly) that the EU currently spends (or does this include our rebate? I forget) would be better spent by the UK making the decision directly, rather than fitting into the EU expenditure schemes.

However, I'm not making that argument. Maybe one day, though, we will discover that that is what BJ means....

Not something to get terribly excited about whichever way any of us voted.

Sorry Paul.
You're a sensible poster, and always make your point well, even when we disagree, but you're totally wrong on this one.
£18.7 billion / year or £350 million a week is the amount that by the official formula we ought to be contributing to the EU each week, but due to the rebate, (which was totally guaranteed) we never ever once sent that amount to the EU.
In 2014 -the last year for which we have fully audited accounts from the Treasury - we sent just over £14.3 billion to the EU which comes out at £276 million per week.
Now Johnson might reasonably quote £276 million / week as the amount sent to Brussels each week, but it is deceitful to claim that all this money will be available for the NHS, (or anything else) because we currently get a fraction under £6 billion / year back.
The reason that Johnson is either deceitful or uninformed is that virtually all of that £6 billion is already spoken for - unless we are going to totally abandon our farmers and various other groups who have always relied on this money going to them.
So the net amount of money is about £8.5 billion / year or £161 million per week.
And now we hear that May might be thinking of offering £10 billion / year to leave the EU but retain access to the Single Market. Not a very smart move is it.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:06 pm

I don't use emojis to convey sarcasm. The sarcasm in both posts you quoted is adequately obvious.

Pstotto · Post by **Pstotto** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:58 pm

Junckers has shown nothing but scorn and hatred for the UK since Brexit. The EU was never a friends club but an abusive relationship to get out of. They want the 4th Reich of Eurasia with Germany the Western rulers and Russia the East with Turkey the hub a la 1939 except with China intent on re-building the silk road like the Nazis building motorways to France before WW2.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:13 pm

We all take the **** out of Ringo, he's the shining beacon of intelligence on this board when compared to you.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:36 pm

Don't rise to the troll Pstotto.

Everybody's looking forward to watching Match of the Day an hopefully a bag full of praise for Tarkowski's imperious defensive performance.

Meanwhile the gaggle of Up The Clarets message board Remoaners are hell bent on a terminal, self perpetuating re-run of the pre referendum debate.

It's as if they don't know what the result was.

Either at Anfield. Or the referendum.!

Thick as ****

Bless their whinging and whining cotton Remoaner socks!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:42 pm

Bless

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:58 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I don't use emojis to convey sarcasm. The sarcasm in both posts you quoted is adequately obvious.

IT would appear your sarcasm isn't quite as obvious to normal people as you think it is.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:08 pm

BennyD wrote:IT would appear your sarcasm isn't quite as obvious to normal people as you think it is.

I'm fine with that.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:22 am

Spijed wrote:By plastering such statements all over a bus kinda gave the impression that the NHS would benefit, don't you think?

Yeah, some of that £350m, not all of it.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:58 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:I'm fine with that.

Undoubtably, but don't be surprised if the reaction to it isn't what you expect.

HatfieldClaret · Post by **HatfieldClaret** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:43 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:I don't use emojis to convey sarcasm. The sarcasm in both posts you quoted is adequately obvious.

And there was me just thinking you were just being a contrary argumentative two hat for the sake of just annoying everyone.

Oh, how could I have been so wrong ?

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:05 am

HatfieldClaret wrote:Yeah, some of that £350m, not all of it.

When all the farming, fishing and other subsidies have been paid to those who get grants , loans and various payments from the EU I suspect there will be very little, if anything left, to give to the NHS.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:53 pm

Spijed wrote:When all the farming, fishing and other subsidies have been paid to those who get grants , loans and various payments from the EU I suspect there will be very little, if anything left, to give to the NHS.

There are a lot of things that we might wish to retain after we leave the EU which will most likely come at a cost. (e.g. Europol, Erasmus and Euratom, and they're just the tip of the iceberg).
Additionally however, if we are to come out of the Customs Union and try to regulate immigration (and thus by necessity change / tighten up our border controls etc) then the cost of this is going to be enormous.
HMRC alone estimate that they would need between 3,000 and 5,000 extra staff if we come out of the customs union.This on its own could cost over a billion, and then there's all the extra border guards, security staff etc, even before we consider the cost of the massive investment in infrastructure that would be needed to secure our borders.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:41 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi elwa, where can I buy some - before it's all sold out?

UTC

Hi Paul, I don't mention it on here often as I don't want to use the board as touting for business, but we are www stylesceneuk dot co dot uk. You can keep tabs on events, gigs and the like on f book stylesceneuk where there's a general discussion group and business page with relevent info and links

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:45 pm

Back to the topic of Juncker, I've just seen the plenary speech to the State of the European Union made this week by Guy Verhofstadt.

It is, frankly, terrifying.

At first glance it seems like a well meaning way of preserving peace and liberty, but listen closely and it is a call to overrule national elected governments with policies the EU doesn't agree with, and at the end of the video he mentions the current Hungarian and Polish governments specifically, and, incredibly, Trump (love him or loathe him you can't just slag him off).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wOnuAEIzaP4

In essence he is saying the EU and it's policies will epitomise liberal values even if the citizens of many EU countries at a moment in time prefer more conservative values. They've been driving towards this for decades, and with our veto we have just about kept them in check.

What could possibly go wrong?

(p.s. This is the chap leading the Brexit Committee of the EU, one reason I feel certain we won't get a deal no matter what we offer, they want rid, so they can press on with full integration and adoption of the euro across the entire EU)

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:22 am

The money saved alone from paying into the corrupt organisation more than makes up for any trade deal. Then there's the huge benefits of cutting immigration and foreign welfare, the pressure will ease on the public services also. No brainer. It's at a time like this we need A Thatcher to sort it all out.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:06 am

Right_winger wrote:The money saved alone from paying into the corrupt organisation more than makes up for any trade deal. Then there's the huge benefits of cutting immigration and foreign welfare, the pressure will ease on the public services also. No brainer. It's at a time like this we need A Thatcher to sort it all out.

Perhaps you could briefly give us some figures and workings to support your view?.
Just about every credible economist says that leaving the EU will make us worse off financially. Even a large percentage of leave voters, (particularly the over-65s) accept this, but they believe that the cost will be worth it. ( Fair enough if you hold this view).
Our net contribution to the EU is 0.3% of GDP. (Treasury statistics - not Boristics). In the big scheme of things it's not massive, and the likelihood is that we would spend more to pay for the benefits we currently derive from membership.
Your point about immigration has been disproved by virtually every survey, and additionally the costs of "policing" our borders / customs officers etc. would more than wipe out any perceived benefits of limiting immigration from the EU.
Immigration from outside the Rest of the World exceeds that from EU in any case.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:18 am

Right_winger wrote:The money saved alone from paying into the corrupt organisation more than makes up for any trade deal. Then there's the huge benefits of cutting immigration and foreign welfare, the pressure will ease on the public services also. No brainer. It's at a time like this we need A Thatcher to sort it all out.

Drop the last two letters and you're spot on.

There's nothing in that post that isn't utter nonsense.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:35 am

nil_desperandum wrote:Perhaps you could briefly give us some figures and workings to support your view?.
Just about every credible economist says that leaving the EU will make us worse off financially.

I'd be inclined to agree that there possibly won't be huge gains on welfare and things by huge migration changes, but one mistake the "experts" consistently make is that they look at it in a binary sense. If we didn't in fact hugely reduce migration, but we tweaked it to suit our genuine interests, there could in fact be significant economic benefits from welfare savings, tax revenue etc.

Imagine we are a business with 70 million widgets (i.e. people in the UK), and you could break the whole of the businesses finances (i.e. the UK economy) down into each of those? 3.5 million of those are EU citizens living here. Imagine having the data to analyse every one of those millions of people. You could save tens of billions by using that knowledge to influence policy. It may be (perhaps) that by replacing 300,000 of those EU citizens with 200,000 of a different type or profession, does in fact lead to the savings that some predict but experts rubbish. This is my own specialist area, it's how I earn a living, and I'm staggered by how so called experts don't see this (or care).

As an aside, I found it amusing that everyone (including you) are making jokes about Boris-nomics, and he has been slagged off by another expert, the Head of UK Statistics, despite for once saying something that was 100% correct. Taking the bus to one side, just judging on the article on Saturday, he was completely right, even the UK rebate isn't in our control, it is dictated by the economy and the Euro/Sterling exchange rate. He only said "a lot of it" should be spent on the NHS (I would agree there were porkies on both sides in the referendum, in balance). Another "expert" talking nonsense yet the press have seized on it as fact.

Sorry for the overly nerdy response, I couldn't resist but it will probably mean the gradual slide down the page of this thread, finally

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:40 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote: He only said "a lot of it" should be spent on the NHS (I would agree there were porkies on both sides in the referendum, in balance). Another "expert" talking nonsense yet the press have seized on it as fact.

and

http://metro.co.uk/2017/04/27/boris-joh ... e-6600240/

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:42 am

"It may be"

"It may not be" as well

But the problem is with this isn't really the fact that Boris Johnson has yet again lied, its the problem that the government of the country clearly hasn't got enough control to say "right, this is what we are going to do". We all need a bit of certainty backed up by the knowledge that it won't be changed. This is just before May makes her speech in Florence in which (well, its predicted but who knows with this lot?) she will be a bit more conciliatory with the EU.

Its party politics at the worst possible time.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:43 am

And its a sad state of affairs that you can type the problem isn't the fact that politicians are lying knowing full well that nothing will happen to them.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:17 pm

I'm staying out of this debate from here on in, and I ask all Brexiteers to do the same and let it all unfold. The long standing master plan has always been an inevitable path towards complete integration led by a beaurocratic elite. Eventually, Europe will, perhaps, be renamed something like Germania to reflect its fundamental allegiance to the controlling state and paymaster. Time will tell Gentlemen, time will tell.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:21 pm

"Germania"

JFW

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:38 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:"Germania"

JFW

Juncker's fervent wish?
Juncker's fondest whimsy?
Juncker's favourite word?

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:45 pm

BennyD wrote:I'm staying out of this debate from here on in, and I ask all Brexiteers to do the same and let it all unfold. The long standing master plan has always been an inevitable path towards complete integration led by a beaurocratic elite. Eventually, Europe will, perhaps, be renamed something like Germania to reflect its fundamental allegiance to the controlling state and paymaster. Time will tell Gentlemen, time will tell.

It's particularly stupid to, even if out of ignorance, evoke Hitler (and simultaneously Peter Andre) who toyed with that term.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:11 pm

If that's your only issue about what's happening, you are particularly stupid as well.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:03 pm

Jizz filled wanksock?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:06 pm

Benny, if you are worried about a German take over of the European Union, you might want to consider just how many countries in that union were occupied by them and just how sensible is it to pull out of it if that is what you are worried about.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:29 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
As an aside, I found it amusing that everyone (including you) are making jokes about Boris-nomics, and he has been slagged off by another expert, the Head of UK Statistics, despite for once saying something that was 100% correct. Taking the bus to one side, just judging on the article on Saturday, he was completely right, even the UK rebate isn't in our control, it is dictated by the economy and the Euro/Sterling exchange rate. He only said "a lot of it" should be spent on the NHS (I would agree there were porkies on both sides in the referendum, in balance). Another "expert" talking nonsense yet the press have seized on it as fact.

Except Johnson wasn't 100% correct, he was telling a lie, and presumably knows it.
We have never sent anywhere near to £350 million per week to the EU, and audited accounts from both our Treasury and the EU confirm this. This is why the Head of UK statistics intervened.
You could argue that £276 million a week might be available to spend post - Brexit, (since that it is what we send from the Treasury), but even that ignores the fact that we get an average of £115 million / week back. Yes we could divert it to the NHS but that would mean no subsidies for the farmers, or for any of the other areas that currently receive it, and will still require and expect to be funded after we leave.
You are incorrect about the rebate incidentally. Mrs T negotiated this, and there's a formula for it. The EU can't change it since we have a veto, so the £276 / week could not suddenly rise to the £350 million.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:35 pm

thatdberight wrote:Juncker's fervent wish?
Juncker's fondest whimsy?
Juncker's favourite word?

Perhaps.

Junckers Father-in-law in the War!

Father-in-law Louis Mathias Frising — dad to Juncker’s wife of 35 years
Christiane — was a teacher in Ettelbruck, Luxembourg, when the Germans
invaded in 1940.

Frising volunteered to be a Nazi propaganda chief while banning spoken French
in favour of German.

He was also responsible for enforcing a law which stripped Jews of their
rights and professions — the first stage of the Holocaust.

Perhaps some of his Father in Law, Loius's, old war stories, had an impact on the impressionable young, pre alcoholic, Jean Claude?

Anyway as you were with the Anglophobia and never ending misery fest gents!

thatdberight · Post by **thatdberight** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:03 pm

BennyD wrote:If that's your only issue about what's happening, you are particularly stupid as well.

No. I'm much more cleverer than you, Benny. It's precisely because I have some of those concerns that I hate to see the arguments against the European Union's direction of travel distilled into idiotic, ill thought-out ramblings about the renaming of Europe to "Germania". It simply gives anyone on the other side of the argument the chance to point and laugh with good reason, diminishing any more coherent points.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:26 pm

nil_desperandum wrote: You are incorrect about the rebate incidentally. Mrs T negotiated this, and there's a formula for it. The EU can't change it since we have a veto, so the £276 / week could not suddenly rise to the £350 million.

Sorry, that is true to a point but I was correct and so was Boris.

The rebate is a complicated VAT based formula negotiated by Mrs T because of the CAP and how it affected us adversely. Part of the formula is the Euro Sterling exchange rate, so to put it simply, it is not in the UK's full control. They cannot budget for it with certainty, nor can they spend it with certainty. Boris was right - the full £350m is not in our control and would be.

Where he is being a bit shady, as they all are, is that some of the £350m is more in our control than others, but NONE is in our full control. The UK Statistics guy was, simply, wrong. He wouldn't have been if he had given more context and told more truths, such as the above.

Boris planned this of course. The 52% will be up in arms now if May's speech goes too far the other way.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:31 pm

Or maybe - Ringo - his values and views were instilled in him by his own father, who was forcibly conscripted into the German Army by the Nazis and sent to the Russian Front? (He suffered greatly).
Seems rather more likely don't you think?
Bringing his father - in - law into it is pretty desperate.(IMO).

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:37 pm

thatdberight wrote:No. I'm much more cleverer than you, Benny. It's precisely because I have some of those concerns that I hate to see the arguments against the European Union's direction of travel distilled into idiotic, ill thought-out ramblings about the renaming of Europe to "Germania". It simply gives anyone on the other side of the argument the chance to point and laugh with good reason, diminishing any more coherent points.

Ok, to humour you, we'll say that you are 'much more cleverer than me' (sic). However, let me recap; in the 20th century Germany tried to rule Europe by force twice, but failed. Germany are now the major power house in a united Europe. Germany, out of pure altruism (sorry, I couldn't help it), underwrote the failing Greek economy to extend its influence within Europe. All I was doing was drawing parallels to what has already gone before, parallels even you recognised. Who was it that said "those who don't learn from their mistakes, are doomed to repeat them"? Whoever it was, was entirely correct. IMO, Germany's ultimate ambitions haven't changed, but those countries with their face in the trough apparently can't see it. Btw, just because I don't care if I 'undermine' your arguments doesn't mean I am wrong. Time will tell. Over and out.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:39 pm

The 52% will be up in arms now if May's speech goes too far the other way.

This is what annoys me. Clearly everyone voted for differing reasons, and no one voted to actually lose money. The country had a chance to vote for the Hard brexit in the election, and the result showed how split we still are.

It has to be a compromise, one which means we still leave, but not at any cost.

Anyone sensible realises this.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:43 pm

Your whole argument falls down on the one thing people like you don't want to accept

THE EU IS NOT NAZI GERMANY

Not in any way, unless you include the fact that it has Germany in it.

I

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:45 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:Or maybe - Ringo - his values and views were instilled in him by his own father, who was forcibly conscripted into the German Army by the Nazis and sent to the Russian Front? (He suffered greatly).
Seems rather more likely don't you think?
Bringing his father - in - law into it is pretty desperate.(IMO).

Aye but not as desparate as the message board Remoaners. Who, since the referendum, they lost, have indulged in a whining, whinging never ending, look for the economic black clouds, hell in a hand cart, lacking national self confidence, it's all the fault of brexit misery Olympics!

If Carlsberg did desperate......

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:05 pm

Yeah, who looks at facts when you've got a flag to wave and a blue passport to stare at?

Its really simple. The Government talk to the EU, agree a transition period, and hey presto! The economy doesn't tank, us remainers are happy because we are doing it sensibly, and the brexiteers are happy because we are still leaving.

But that requires common sense.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:30 pm

It is commonsense but I don't trust our polictians to actually leave. You know the ones that from the day after the referendum have done everything possible to undermine Brexit.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:39 pm

I'd agree that the Conservative party since the election are more interested in who is going to take over from May rather than what is best for the country.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:46 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I'd agree that the Conservative party since the election are more interested in who is going to take over from May rather than what is best for the country.

There are a whole bunch of things the Conservative Party is more interested in that what is best for the country.

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:48 pm

Walton wrote:FFS. The European Parliament IS elected.

FFS the commission ( the power) isn't
Grow up.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:55 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:There are a whole bunch of things the Conservative Party is more interested in that what is best for the country.

As opposed to Labour, who are a shining beacon of virtue, right?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:02 pm

Nope, but as they are not in power, it doesn't matter.

Country first, party politics a very distant second

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:02 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:As opposed to Labour, who are a shining beacon of virtue, right?

It's better to vote for arseholes that are concerned with your interests than arseholes who are only interested in the interests of the rich.

But keep going with the false equivalency. I promise that if i suffer the right kind of TBI i'll respect such mutterings.

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:02 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Your whole argument falls down on the one thing people like you don't want to accept

THE EU IS NOT NAZI GERMANY

Not in any way, unless you include the fact that it has Germany in it.

Oh sorry, I didn't realise the Nazis were responsible for dragging the world into the 1914-18 world war. The Nazis were just another bunch of Germans trying to achieve the same ambition, and that's where your whole argument falls down. Perhaps 'people like me' can see the bigger picture whereas 'people like you' you can't.

tiger76 · Post by **tiger76** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:40 pm

summitclaret wrote:It is commonsense but I don't trust our polictians to actually leave. You know the ones that from the day after the referendum have done everything possible to undermine Brexit.

Maybe the politicians at Westminster now realise they might have to actually work for their salaries, as opposed to deferring to the EU,the buck will now stop with them whichever party are in power.

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:07 pm

At least the blessed Saint Theresa claims she is in the driving seat. What could possibly go wrong ?

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