Was it a pen ?

Claret · Post by **Claret** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:04 am

Diving, simulation, exaggeration.......it’s all the same. It’s cheating. I think the rules should be changed so that if the referee sees even a hint of exaggeration he is allowed to wave play on even if it is a clear foul. That’ll soon stop the cheats.

Wilson Drake · Post by **Wilson Drake** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:14 am

Oh yeah may be

yorkyclaret · Post by **yorkyclaret** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:31 am

bumba wrote:If it was at our end and given id of walked all the way home laughing saying the refs gifted us one there.

Id of never called it blatent, id also be saying our player will get a two game retrospective ban for diving but Ramsey wont.

OK, 99% of us would have been happy.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:34 am

Barnes throws himself to the ground every opportunity he has. **** happens.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:43 am

Dyched wrote:Barnes throws himself to the ground every opportunity he has. **** happens.

I wish he didn't and I wouldn't complain if he ended up with a retrospective ban if he was found to be simulating to get a penalty. I want Burnley players to have integrity and play fair even if the opposition do not.

Since yesterday, I have viewed the incident from every angle available and it is clear as day that Ramsey simulated and exaggerated his actions in response to Tarks placing his hands on Ramsey's back. I would also say that had it been a Burnley player (Barnes is your example) that went down like that he would have most likely been carded for simulation and we would not have got a penalty. As it is, it is Arsenal and the ref knew that he wouldn't hear the end of it from Wenger had that not been given - Mason has form for this type of thing and he fears the wrath of big clubs and their managers.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:58 am

Rick_Muller wrote:I wish he didn't and I wouldn't complain if he ended up with a retrospective ban if he was found to be simulating to get a penalty. I want Burnley players to have integrity and play fair even if the opposition do not.

Since yesterday, I have viewed the incident from every angle available and it is clear as day that Ramsey simulated and exaggerated his actions in response to Tarks placing his hands on Ramsey's back. I would also say that had it been a Burnley player (Barnes is your example) that went down like that he would have most likely been carded for simulation and we would not have got a penalty. As it is, it is Arsenal and the ref knew that he wouldn't hear the end of it from Wenger had that not been given - Mason has form for this type of thing and he fears the wrath of big clubs and their managers.

You can't say for sure Burnley wouldn't have got it. If they didn't they'd be a huge thread complaining about it on here. Unfortunately the way football is Tarkowski should have known what Ramsey would do.

It's all comes down to the officials for me. You can not blame players going down easily, diving when they get so many blatant penalties wrong. They can't even get throw ins, goalkicks/corners correct half the time. I don't have much time to watch other sports but in Rugby, Basketball etc get so many simple decisions wrong?

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:09 pm

Dyched wrote:You can't say for sure Burnley wouldn't have got it. If they didn't they'd be a huge thread complaining about it on here. Unfortunately the way football is Tarkowski should have known what Ramsey would do.

It's all comes down to the officials for me. You can not blame players going down easily, diving when they get so many blatant penalties wrong. They can't even get throw ins, goalkicks/corners correct half the time. I don't have much time to watch other sports but in Rugby, Basketball etc get so many simple decisions wrong?

Doesn't change the fact that the ball wasn't going any where near him (Ramsey)

Goodclaret · Post by **Goodclaret** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:31 pm

Not a chance it could have been a red card. Ramsey couldn't even reach the ball (and not because he was diving like the true little cheating s4itbag he is) so never a goal scoring opportunity. I am surprised that Mason didn't show a red though. Perhaps he was so excited about being able to give the pen he forgot he could have "done" us even more.

Absolute pi55 poor referee.

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:44 pm

Dyched wrote:It's all comes down to the officials for me. You can not blame players going down easily, diving when they get so many blatant penalties wrong.

Akin to blaming the victims of con-artists for being victim to ever improving and more ingenious methods of deceit...

Referee has one chance to see it (only for now, hopefully) has players specifically trying to deceive him, has managers like Wenger moaning when his precious stars are not given their own way and the nation's media and pundits criticising decisions and justifying poor behaviour from players with 'there was contact'.

For inconsistency I can level blame at Mason but for falling pray to a cheating little sh1t like Ramsey, I just can't.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:57 pm

Cheating little sh1t?

Whould love to know your view on Barnes.

Woodleyclaret · Post by **Woodleyclaret** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:01 pm

Never Ramsay went down like he'd been shot and should have been booked for diving but then top sides always get the nod as we found out at City

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:09 pm

Dyched wrote:Cheating little sh1t?

Whould love to know your view on Barnes.

My view on Barnes is that he makes the most of contact where he has a chance to get the ball. He did it a few times yesterday. Not sure I've seen him hit the deck yet when the ball is 3 feet above his head, though. Maybe you can provide an example of when he has done something like Ramsay did yesterday?

P.s. Good job on sidestepping the point that you are ridiculous in suggesting Referees are to blame for players diving. I don't think anyone noticed...

iluva64 · Post by **iluva64** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:16 pm

Yes it WAS DEFINITELY a pen!!!!!!!!

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:17 pm

Darthlaw wrote:My view on Barnes is that he makes the most of contact where he has a chance to get the ball. Not sure I've seen him hit the deck yet when the ball is 3 feet above his head. Maybe you can provide an example of when he has done something like Ramsay did yesterday?

P.s. Good job on sidestepping the point that you are ridiculous in suggesting Referees are to blame for players diving. I don't think anyone noticed...

Barnes dives (makes the most of contact)when he can win the ball fairly?? But you're ok with that. Why? Cos he plays for Burnley.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:18 pm

iluva64 wrote:Yes it WAS DEFINITELY a pen!!!!!!!!

Offside.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:19 pm

iluva64 wrote:Yes it WAS DEFINITELY a pen!!!!!!!!

He was waaaaay offside. Had he not been, Monreal wouldn't have been able to put his arms on his back. But I agree it was, if both players were 5 yards further back. But it wasn't

iluva64 · Post by **iluva64** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:20 pm

One rule for us and another for them...........yes I'm biased but there is contact in both instances and both are two handed pushes.

CONSISTENCY from the referee is all we ask

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:21 pm

I know that I felt, and I think the whole crowd could sense, that Mason was just waiting for an opportunity to give them a soft penalty.
I'd be surprised if the players on either side didn't feel the same. Tarks on that score should have known better, but it was almost an encouragement for Ramsey to dive, he knew Mason was wanting to give it.

Barnes was a lot more of a penalty, unfortunately he was offside just, so saved Mason the embarrassment of waving it away.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:25 pm

iluva64 wrote:One rule for us and another for them...........yes I'm biased but there is contact in both instances and both are two handed pushes.

CONSISTENCY from the referee is all we ask

How can he award a penalty when Barnes is offside?

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:25 pm

iluva64 wrote:One rule for us and another for them...........yes I'm biased but there is contact in both instances and both are two handed pushes.

CONSISTENCY from the referee is all we ask

Offside

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:27 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote:I know that I felt, and I think the whole crowd could sense, that Mason was just waiting for an opportunity to give them a soft penalty.
I'd be surprised if the players on either side didn't feel the same. Tarks on that score should have known better, but it was almost an encouragement for Ramsey to dive, he knew Mason was wanting to give it.

Barnes was a lot more of a penalty, unfortunately he was offside just, so saved Mason the embarrassment of waving it away.

Embarrassment?? Can people please stop making crap up to prove a point. Stop being bitter and paranoid.

iluva64 · Post by **iluva64** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:28 pm

LEVEL.....therefore on side

Not a true view down the line and I have C&B tinted glasses on

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:37 pm

I think you're right. How the **** wasn't this given.

duncandisorderly · Post by **duncandisorderly** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:39 pm

Level with what?

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm

Darthlaw wrote:Akin to blaming the victims of con-artists for being victim to ever improving and more ingenious methods of deceit...

Referee has one chance to see it (only for now, hopefully) has players specifically trying to deceive him, has managers like Wenger moaning when his precious stars are not given their own way and the nation's media and pundits criticising decisions and justifying poor behaviour from players with 'there was contact'.

For inconsistency I can level blame at Mason but for falling pray to a cheating little sh1t like Ramsey, I just can't.

The problem is, if a con artist sells London Bridge to a mug punter, you might feel sorry for the punter. But when the same man goes on to sell him Tower Bridge, Waterloo Bridge, Blackfriars Bridge, and Putney and Mortlake Bridges. then you start to feel less sorry for him.

Lee Mason - and other refs too - evidently have no concept that a player might try and deceive him. They see a player fall over, and assume that he has been fouled.

Dy1geo · Post by **Dy1geo** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:57 pm

From where I sit in the end Block near to the away fans, in real time it looked a penalty the person next to me said why did he push him and as soon as Ramsey went down my eyes went straight to the Ref.

Yes with hindsight it’s easy to say the ball was no where near him and he went down softly but the referee can only view it as he sees it.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:00 pm

Dy1geo wrote:Yes with hindsight it’s easy to say the ball was no where near him and he went down softly but the referee can only view it as he sees it.

Exactly - and that's the problem. The ref has been trained to see a man fall over and assume it's a foul. Mason would give that penalty unless he was 100% certain Ramsey had not been touched. If in doubt, Mason gives it.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:02 pm

dsr wrote:Exactly - and that's the problem. The ref has been trained to see a man fall over and assume it's a foul. Mason would give that penalty unless he was 100% certain Ramsey had not been touched. If in doubt, Mason gives it.

And as per the new regulations Ramsey should be reviewed by the simulation panel, but won’t be because he plays for Arsenal.

claretblue · Post by **claretblue** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:12 pm

Wenger on Ramsey swallow dive:

'...When you speak to him, he didn't throw himself on the ground, he wanted to go back and flick the ball, he was pushed in the back, had a problem in the neck from the push, it was a very strong push...'

very strong push!!*?!

Diesel · Post by **Diesel** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:15 pm

brigante wrote:Was there contact?

My Dog doesn't cheat.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:56 pm

Just watched sky highlights again and it's still really difficult to tell. Ramsey definitely flings himself but Tarks looks like he's doing more than just putting his hands on his back.

As an aside the challenge from Brady on Bellerin in 2nd half looked a great tackle to me - from my 100 yard view in the lower JM ! Seeing it now it's a penalty - he took his legs before he got the ball.

Lots of bad decisions by the ref - so much inconsistency it was embarrassing. Booking Defour for dissent but not Sanchez for much worse. Not booking any of their players for identical fouls to the ones he booked ours for. Not giving a free kick on the edge of their box when Kocienly clearly blocked a shot with his hand. Allowing Arsenal to line up the wall which had to be 7 or 8 yards away at most.

None of these are the worst refereeing crimes in the world but they are very easy decisions to make so how can you get so many wrong ? He's from Bolton btw - which might explain a few things !

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:04 pm

Graham Poll has just been interviewed on talk sport.

He said, "as a referee, you know that as the game draws to an end, teams become more and more desparate to win. And when a player does something like that, you have to consider the circumstances. For me. It was not a penalty."

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:10 pm

claretspice wrote:It could have been given, and it could have been turned down. That's the way Mason dealt with pushes in the back all afternoon - Monreal got away with plenty of two handed pushes on Barnes when the ball went forwards, Koscielney wierdly got away with very few. Same applied at the other end.

Having been so erratic, it seems bizarre he chose to go strict for the biggest call of the match, a call he knew would generally err on the side of the defending team. Mind you, this is the ref who chose to book the first Burnley player to complain about a decision for dissent when he didn'tt get within 10 yards of the linesman (and indeed, is entirely right that the decision was wrong), and then sees fit to summon five different Arsenal players for warnings about dissent in the second half without booking a single one. So perhaps we shouldn't be surprised. Both teams had gripes about the ref at different times today, but Mason generally gave the impression he was intimidated by Arsenal.

I don't think dissent is judged by how many yards away from the official you are, Id guess its more about the words that come out of a players gob.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:11 pm

There are 3 types of push that result in a penalty:
Careless (no booking)
Reckless (yellow card)
Excessive (Red Card)

So the very fact a player exaggerates could result in an upgrading of an offense from Careless to Reckless and so on. So if the ref sees there's a push but also exaggeration he could give a penalty but also book the player who exaggerated for trying to get the defender booked/sent off. So it might have been a penalty but Ramsey should have been booked as well.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:13 pm

BleedingClaret wrote:Doesn't change the fact that the ball wasn't going any where near him (Ramsey)

Which doesn't change the fact that Tarkowski clearly pushed him in the back inside the penalty area. An absolute clear foul regardless of what minute the game is in or which clubs are involved. I'm not sure how our fans cant just accept it and move on...... It was a foul, moaning and making excuses on here wont change that.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:18 pm

Goodclaret wrote:Not a chance it could have been a red card. Ramsey couldn't even reach the ball (and not because he was diving like the true little cheating s4itbag he is) so never a goal scoring opportunity. I am surprised that Mason didn't show a red though. Perhaps he was so excited about being able to give the pen he forgot he could have "done" us even more.

Absolute pi55 poor referee.

It has to be excessive force for a red - chance of serious injury - pushed into goal post, pushed where there could be head injury.

Reckless is a yellow

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:20 pm

Caernarfon_Claret wrote:There are 3 types of push that result in a penalty:
Careless (no booking)
Reckless (yellow card)
Excessive (Red Card)

So the very fact a player exaggerates could result in an upgrading of an offense from Careless to Reckless and so on. So if the ref sees there's a push but also exaggeration he could give a penalty but also book the player who exaggerated for trying to get the defender booked/sent off. So it might have been a penalty but Ramsey should have been booked as well.

Yes he "could" but that ain't never going to happen is it ?

The issue is that as soon as you exaggerate your dive even if there is any contact you are conning the officials and you are cheating. How can you say with any certainty that without the exaggeration the player would have gone to ground or even that it has impacted on him scoring ? These are big strapping strong athletes - if you pushed them gently in the street they would not flinch so why is it different on the field ?

The rule should be made much simpler - if someone exaggerates then he is trying to deceive the referee and if they do that then a penalty cannot be given. This means that even if there is contact a player is costing his team a potential penalty by cheating - he wouldn't do it again...especially if he gets a ban. I know this still leaves a grey area in deciding whether a player had exaggerated or not but many of them are so obvious when the hands go up in the air etc.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:23 pm

KRBFC wrote:Which doesn't change the fact that Tarkowski clearly pushed him in the back inside the penalty area. An absolute clear foul regardless of what minute the game is in or which clubs are involved. I'm not sure how our fans cant just accept it and move on...... It was a foul, moaning and making excuses on here wont change that.

But the point is, there was a lot of contact every time a corner was taken. If that was a foul, then so were probably half a dozen others. Why did Mason choose to give that one? Because of the dive.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:23 pm

KRBFC wrote:Which doesn't change the fact that Tarkowski clearly pushed him in the back inside the penalty area. An absolute clear foul regardless of what minute the game is in or which clubs are involved. I'm not sure how our fans cant just accept it and move on...... It was a foul, moaning and making excuses on here wont change that.

Looked like careless which as you say is a clear penalty.

Ramsey's reaction could have made it seem reckless which to me it wasn't, which is a yellow card offense.

Not sure if Tarks was booked for the push, if he was that would be the only thing I think wrong with the decision. I'd have been happy with Ramsey getting only a warning for exaggerating a little rather than a yellow.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:24 pm

It would help if referees (and players) went to watch a rugby game once in a while. Then they might see firstly, how much force it takes to bring a player down against his will; secondly, what it looks like when you do.

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:24 pm

Dyched wrote:Barnes dives (makes the most of contact)when he can win the ball fairly?? But you're ok with that. Why? Cos he plays for Burnley.

I didn't say I'm ok with it, I just explained that's what he does. Throwing yourself to the floor with no chance of reaching a ball three feet above your head is blatant cheating, whereas Barnes is clearly using his opponent's contact to draw a foul when trying to win the ball.

Barnes - Clever, yes. Snide, almost certainly. Cheating? Hmmm.

Again, don't let that detract from the fact you (quite stupidly) said it was the referees fault that players dive.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:25 pm

dsr wrote:But the point is, there was a lot of contact every time a corner was taken. If that was a foul, then so were probably half a dozen others. Why did Mason choose to give that one? Because of the dive.

If the contact was careless it should be given - a controlled push to create space is not deemed careless and so no penalty whereas a push in the back is seen as careless.

Darthlaw · Post by **Darthlaw** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:28 pm

dsr wrote:The problem is, if a con artist sells London Bridge to a mug punter, you might feel sorry for the punter. But when the same man goes on to sell him Tower Bridge, Waterloo Bridge, Blackfriars Bridge, and Putney and Mortlake Bridges. then you start to feel less sorry for him.

Lee Mason - and other refs too - evidently have no concept that a player might try and deceive him. They see a player fall over, and assume that he has been fouled.

I didn't realise Ramsay (the same man) had won so many penalties for Arsenal when Mason was refereeing. I mean it's only Ramsay trying to deceive referees in the game isn't it? Not like it's inherent in the game to have so many cheats, trying to con so many referees.

Of course it's all Lee Mason's fault, eh?

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:30 pm

Careless is all about whether a player takes precautions it doesn't have to be much contact at all.
A firm push in the chest just before a corner might have more contact than a push in the back but be seen as ok.

Careless
Reckless
Excessive

If it's one of those it's a penalty.

Caernarfon_Claret · Post by **Caernarfon_Claret** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:35 pm

For me.

Penalty for Careless push (depending on how careless Tarks was and whether he had enough time to take precautions)
Yellow Card for Ramsey (trying to get Tarks a yellow card when it wasn't yellow card offense)

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:42 pm

Darthlaw wrote:I didn't realise Ramsay (the same man) had won so many penalties for Arsenal when Mason was refereeing. I mean it's only Ramsay trying to deceive referees in the game isn't it? Not like it's inherent in the game to have so many cheats, trying to con so many referees.

Of course it's all Lee Mason's fault, eh?

When I said "Lee Mason - and other refs too" I was trying to imply that other refs as well as Lee Mason made the same mistake.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:20 pm

dsr wrote:But the point is, there was a lot of contact every time a corner was taken. If that was a foul, then so were probably half a dozen others. Why did Mason choose to give that one? Because of the dive.

Well there's a clear difference between two players jostling for position at a set piece and a blatant push in the back when the balls nowhere near either of them. Football is a contact sport, you cant expect penalties to be given everytime two players touch each other. The big difference is Ramsey wasn't touching JT, JT pushed Ramsey. The "dive" is irrelevant it just highlights a clear stupid foul.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:30 pm

KRBFC wrote:Well there's a clear difference between two players jostling for position at a set piece and a blatant push in the back when the balls nowhere near either of them. Football is a contact sport, you cant expect penalties to be given everytime two players touch each other. The big difference is Ramsey wasn't touching JT, JT pushed Ramsey. The "dive" is irrelevant it just highlights a clear stupid foul.

So if Ramsay had stayed on his feet you think the penalty would still have been given?

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:32 pm

dsr wrote:It would help if referees (and players) went to watch a rugby game once in a while. Then they might see firstly, how much force it takes to bring a player down against his will; secondly, what it looks like when you do.

It would help if you grew a brain but it ain't gonna happen. Barnes went down like he'd been shot, does that mean he wasn't fouled? No

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:33 pm

dsr wrote:So if Ramsay had stayed on his feet you think the penalty would still have been given?

Impossible to say but its a foul regardless of Ramsey's actions after the foul.