Bitcoin

dushanbe · Post by **dushanbe** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:07 pm

I remember a bit of a debate about these earlier this year.

The value of 1 bitcoin has this morning passed $10,000 and is currently around $10,800. A work colleague is sat on 6.8 of these and is frantically trying to get shut.

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:17 pm

dush, maybe i'm missing something, or getting the exchange rate the wrong way round,
but why is he "frantically trying to get shut" when the price is rocketing?

Seems odd.

Sutton-Claret · Post by **Sutton-Claret** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:22 pm

ElectroClaret wrote:dush, maybe i'm missing something, or getting the exchange rate the wrong way round,
but why is he "frantically trying to get shut" when the price is rocketing?

Seems odd.

TBF if I had nearly $7K in an imaginery currency that I don't really understand, I'd defo be selling.....

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:24 pm

I imagine he's concerned about the price crashing.

Although I'm seeing some very bullish predictions of potentially hitting $40k by the end of 2018.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:28 pm

Sutton-Claret wrote:TBF if I had nearly $7K in an imaginery currency that I don't really understand, I'd defo be selling.....

What if you had over $70k, like this bloke

dushanbe · Post by **dushanbe** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:28 pm

He's sat on roughly $70,000 obtained years ago for nowt. One of the things driving the price is its a bit more difficult selling bitcoins than buying them. At $10,000 each, once everyone who got them early enough works out how to sell safely the price is likely to fall. In a commodity based on fog and sand, I'd pocket the $70,000 every day of the week, regardless of the chance of a higher price next week.

Remember, man who tries to pick bottom, ends up with stinky finger.

Not quite the right way around, but reverse it for man trying to pick the top..

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:28 pm

I've tried to get my head around this, and I can't.

$40,000 is well, remarkable

South Sea Bubble/tulip territory here or is it actually sustainable?

TonbridgeClaret · Post by **TonbridgeClaret** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:28 pm

There have been predictions of Bitcoin crashing and Bitcoin being a bubble since 2011. I only have about 0.11 Bitcoin and I won't be selling for another 3 or 4 years.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:57 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I've tried to get my head around this, and I can't.

$40,000 is well, remarkable

South Sea Bubble/tulip territory here or is it actually sustainable?

It's a bubble. There is no value to a bitcoin except for the belief that someone in the future will pay even more than you did.

With the tulip bulb bubble, you might pay £1,000 for a tulip bulb worth 5 shillings and the odd £999 15s was for the belief that someone else would pay more. With the South Sea bubble you paid your £1,000 for a share in a company that might pay a few pennies dividend, but most of the value was for the chance that the price would keep going up and you would get more money back.

This bubble doesn't have anything behind it at all. As soon as no-one wants bitcoins any more, or everyone who can afford them and wants them has got them, they're worthless. The only question is when this will be.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:06 pm

What is bitcoin used for? I know its a crypto currency but why would it be worth so much? Am I right in saying crypto currency's are used to get around law in certain countries (gambling laws mainly). I don't see why anyone would buy it?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:21 pm

dushanbe wrote:I remember a bit of a debate about these earlier this year.

The value of 1 bitcoin has this morning passed $10,000 and is currently around $10,800. A work colleague is sat on 6.8 of these and is frantically trying to get shut.

Hi Dushanbe, it sounds like the "bid-offer" spread on bitcoin is very wide - maybe it's a market full where the "ordinary punter" can buy - but none of them can sell....

I'd recommend your friend to see what he can get for 1 bitcoin, or maybe just try to sell a fraction of 1 bitcoin. Depending on what he paid for his 6.8 coins, he might get out without too big a loss.

When everyone else that has been tempted by the bitcoin/cryptocurrency "hype" knows that it's "difficult to sell" my guess is that the value will fall back below $1,000 very quickly. Only the "I need to hide what I'm doing from the authorities crowd" will continue to hold bitcoin when the collapse happens.

Good luck.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:28 pm

And, in The Times today:

Bitcoin sets record as currency surges towards the $10,000 mark

"Bitcoin was in striking distance of the $10,000 mark yesterday as it surged to another record high, despite warnings from top financiers that the digital currency bubble is about to burst."

There's other stuff in the article - but the key fact is bubbles burst.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:34 pm

Bitcoin is partly popular because it is so liquid compared to some of the other coins (24 hour trading volume was in the region of $6bn, $70k is obviously a tiny fraction of this). Shifting 7 coins is straightforward enough, I guess the issue is either that he's trying to minimise fees or that he hasn't been validated on an exchange to cash out that volume (a lot now require photo ID and utility bill for anti-money laundering regulations).

Sutton-Claret · Post by **Sutton-Claret** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:37 pm

Tall Paul wrote:What if you had over $70k, like this bloke

I did actually mean 70k...... Honest

dushanbe · Post by **dushanbe** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:38 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
I'd recommend your friend to see what he can get for 1 bitcoin, or maybe just try to sell a fraction of 1 bitcoin. Depending on what he paid for his 6.8 coins, he might get out without too big a loss.

No, the problem with selling them is a technical one rather than anything to do with the spread or finding willing buyers. As he obtained them for nothing during the very early stages of computer mining, he stands to gain 100% regardless of what they are sold for, but obviously now the price has gone through $11,400 per bitcoin, he's rather keen to have the cash.

karatekid · Post by **karatekid** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:40 pm

dushanbe wrote:I remember a bit of a debate about these earlier this year.

The value of 1 bitcoin has this morning passed $10,000 and is currently around $10,800. A work colleague is sat on 6.8 of these and is frantically trying to get shut.

Your colleague could always put it to good use and buy us all a 12 month pass on sportsmania

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:40 pm

Have a look at ripple.com. Their currency ( similar to bitcoin) is an XRP. Currently worth about 26 cents. I bought at 20 cents a few weeks ago. Could be an interesting punt with a potential for large gain.

dushanbe · Post by **dushanbe** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:40 pm

aggi wrote:...he hasn't been validated on an exchange to cash out that volume (a lot now require photo ID and utility bill for anti-money laundering regulations).

Thats exactly the issue Aggi.

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:43 pm

The other issue is the 'ponzi' style schemes where people buy 'packages'. I have been approached to join one which I declined, mainly due to financial situation but also because I had pre-warning it is a scam.

If you want to invest in Bitcoin do it directly and not through someone convincing you to 'invest' in 'mining' scheme

Jel · Post by **Jel** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:16 pm

FCBurnley wrote:Have a look at ripple.com. Their currency ( similar to bitcoin) is an XRP. Currently worth about 26 cents. I bought at 20 cents a few weeks ago. Could be an interesting punt with a potential for large gain.

I was just going to mention Ripple. From what I have seen it's got great potential. I've got 2000@ 0.24.
Litecoin has just gone past £100 for the first time too

Darnhill Claret · Post by **Darnhill Claret** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:34 pm

Just sell half.

cutsy123 · Post by **cutsy123** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:57 pm

Iitecoin looks a major.investment now way its goin uo

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:52 pm

I write about cryptocurrency for clients on a regular basis. When we're talking about Bitcoin, we can't talk about it without mentioning the blockchain. It's essentially a digital public ledger that allows for a great deal of transparency. The way it works with Bitcoin is that a transaction is made and then it's approved on the blockchain which is made up of millions of computers around the world - that's the beauty of it. It is completely decentralised and has no one point of weakness. As such, it cannot be tampered with by a third party. So if you send Bitcoin to another person your transaction will be verified by people (miners) all around the world on their computers. Blockchain technology's potential reaches far beyond the transactions of Bitcoin. For anyone who is interested, read up a little on Ethereum. Because it's decentralised and public, the blockchain could be used for the storing of contracts and even for voting.

What I'm trying to say is that Bitcoin's value is much more than just the coding that makes up the coins. There's good technology there and I believe it has the potential to change the world. Banks are threatened by it and some have even looked at investing in it themselves. The advantages of Bitcoin are that it's decentralised, transactions are quicker and cheaper than with banking, it provides a level of anonymity (you don't attach any personal information to your Bitcoin wallet) and much more. Personally, I'm invested in a few coins other than Bitcoin. While I respect Bitcoin for leading the way, the technology offered by some other coins is far better. Some have much quicker transactions, cheaper fees, more privacy and so on. Happy to give advice if anybody is interested as it's something I find fascinating

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:06 pm

Indigo.....I suppose a lot of people (including me) would be most concerned with
the apparent difficulty pointed out by dushanbe in post#6 with selling bitcoin if you needed
hard funds.

How do you go about it, and is it so difficult?

Burnleyareback2 · Post by **Burnleyareback2** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:09 pm

IndigoLake wrote:I write about cryptocurrency for clients on a regular basis. When we're talking about Bitcoin, we can't talk about it without mentioning the blockchain. It's essentially a digital public ledger that allows for a great deal of transparency. The way it works with Bitcoin is that a transaction is made and then it's approved on the blockchain which is made up of millions of computers around the world - that's the beauty of it. It is completely decentralised and has no one point of weakness. As such, it cannot be tampered with by a third party. So if you send Bitcoin to another person your transaction will be verified by people (miners) all around the world on their computers. Blockchain technology's potential reaches far beyond the transactions of Bitcoin. For anyone who is interested, read up a little on Ethereum. Because it's decentralised and public, the blockchain could be used for the storing of contracts and even for voting.

What I'm trying to say is that Bitcoin's value is much more than just the coding that makes up the coins. There's good technology there and I believe it has the potential to change the world. Banks are threatened by it and some have even looked at investing in it themselves. The advantages of Bitcoin are that it's decentralised, transactions are quicker and cheaper than with banking, it provides a level of anonymity (you don't attach any personal information to your Bitcoin wallet) and much more. Personally, I'm invested in a few coins other than Bitcoin. While I respect Bitcoin for leading the way, the technology offered by some other coins is far better. Some have much quicker transactions, cheaper fees, more privacy and so on. Happy to give advice if anybody is interested as it's something I find fascinating

I'm interested!

What would you advise and where would you obtain them from?

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:10 pm

Would it be easier, then, for the owner of the 6.8 bitcoins, rather then cash it in, to buy some material with it, such as a car?

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:11 pm

KRBFC wrote:What is bitcoin used for? I know its a crypto currency but why would it be worth so much? Am I right in saying crypto currency's are used to get around law in certain countries (gambling laws mainly). I don't see why anyone would buy it?

If anything, Bitcoin is a store of value like gold. In theory, you can buy and sell with Bitcoin and there are an increasing number of merchants accepting this form of payment. While people could use Bitcoin to buy drugs or other illegal goods or services, it would be stupid to do so. All transactions are public and very transparent. So while the personal information of those involved in a transaction is not public, transactions are. The relevant authorities could figure out the identity of a payment sender or a recipient through their transactions. If a person wants a cryptocurrency for illegal activities, that would be Monero which offers not only anonymity but total privacy.

Why would anyone buy Bitcoin? As a store of wealth, as an investment, because they believe in the technology behind it, because it's decentralised and not controlled by any one entity or form of government, because it's faster and cheaper than traditional banking...the benefits are endless

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:18 pm

ElectroClaret wrote:Indigo.....I suppose a lot of people (including me) would be most concerned with
the apparent difficulty pointed out by dushanbe in post#6 with selling bitcoin if you needed
hard funds.

How do you go about it, and is it so difficult?

While I can't comment on one person's personal experience, in my experience it's not difficult at all. It's easy to buy and sell Bitcoin on a reliable cryptocurrency exchange (I can recommend these if needed) and I don't know anybody who has had any difficulty. The demand for Bitcoin is growing at a rapid rate so it's unlikely to be a problem.

So to buy or sell Bitcoin, look for a cryptocurrency exchange, create an account (you may need to get your account verified with a few security steps) and you're good to go. Please don't take this as investment advice though - the cryptocurrency market is extremely volatile and it's only worth investing what you're prepared to lose.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:26 pm

Burnleyareback2 wrote:I'm interested!

What would you advise and where would you obtain them from?

First of all, I'd just like to say that the cryptocurrency market is extremely volatile and there is no guarantee that the bubble won't burst. Personally, I believe in the technology behind it and I'm in it for the long haul. However, you have to be okay with losing any money you invest. Otherwise it's not worth the anxiety it will cause.

Having said that, I believe in investing in cryptocurrencies that have real benefits and serve a purpose. I'm not going to recommend some crap ICO from Kazakhstan or anything because the majority are so high risk that they're not worth your time. I'd start by looking at the likes of Ethereum, Monero and Litecoin.

Ethereum is a platform that allows for the building of decentralized apps (dapps) which are basically not controlled by any third party. There's huge potential there and the price is rising rapidly. It's the second biggest crypto by market cap at present.

Monero is the ultimate privacy coin. Contrary to popular belief, Bitcoin is not a privacy coin. It only offers anonymity. Monero offers complete privacy so that nobody can be sure a transaction is yours or link it to your account/wallet.

Litecoin has tagged itself as the silver to Bitcoin's gold. Transactions are much quicker with Litecoin and I see it as a much more practical cryptocurrency to use in terms of actual buying and selling in the future.

My advice would be to read up on some cryptocurrencies and find one that appeals to you. I cannot guarantee that prices will continue to rise or that one of the cryptocurrencies I've mentioned will reach Bitcoin's price level. However, I believe in them and think they're exciting projects.

You'd obtain any of these popular cryptocurrencies on a cryptocurrency exchange. There are many of them so be sure to do some research online in advance. Popular exchanges include Coinbase, Kraken, Bittrex, Bitfinex etc. Hope that helps!

Burnleyareback2 · Post by **Burnleyareback2** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:31 pm

IndigoLake wrote:First of all, I'd just like to say that the cryptocurrency market is extremely volatile and there is no guarantee that the bubble won't burst. Personally, I believe in the technology behind it and I'm in it for the long haul. However, you have to be okay with losing any money you invest. Otherwise it's not worth the anxiety it will cause.

Having said that, I believe in investing in cryptocurrencies that have real benefits and serve a purpose. I'm not going to recommend some crap ICO from Kazakhstan or anything because the majority are so high risk that they're not worth your time. I'd start by looking at the likes of Ethereum, Monero and Litecoin.

Ethereum is a platform that allows for the building of decentralized apps (dapps) which are basically not controlled by any third party. There's huge potential there and the price is rising rapidly. It's the second biggest crypto by market cap at present.

Monero is the ultimate privacy coin. Contrary to popular belief, Bitcoin is not a privacy coin. It only offers anonymity. Monero offers complete privacy so that nobody can be sure a transaction is yours or link it to your account/wallet.

Litecoin has tagged itself as the silver to Bitcoin's gold. Transactions are much quicker with Litecoin and I see it as a much more practical cryptocurrency to use in terms of actual buying and selling in the future.

My advice would be to read up on some cryptocurrencies and find one that appeals to you. I cannot guarantee that prices will continue to rise or that one of the cryptocurrencies I've mentioned will reach Bitcoin's price level. However, I believe in them and think they're exciting projects.

You'd obtain any of these popular cryptocurrencies on a cryptocurrency exchange. There are many of them so be sure to do some research online in advance. Popular exchanges include Coinbase, Kraken, Bittrex, Bitfinex etc. Hope that helps!

Thanks for the info, will continue to look into it
Appreciate the help

Jel · Post by **Jel** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:42 pm

Indigo, I'm using Blockchain for Bitcoin and Markets.com for other crypto.
Blockchain has been a bit of a pain to transfer funds and I've had to do it through Coinify.
Markets.com has been fine but I think they are getting worried about the volatility of crypto and suspend trading sometimes.
Who would you suggest as an alternative way to trade?
Thanks in advance

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:43 pm

I’m confident I know enough to get by in all areas of finance or economics - apart from this.

The pros seem to be:

1. It is all created and held on many connected computers.
2. It is not linked to any traditional currencies or to gold.
3. It is not prone to tampering by Governments who are thus likely to be very threatened by it.

The cons seem to be:

1. It is all created and held on many connected computers.
2. It is not linked to any traditional currencies or to gold.
3. It is not prone to tampering by Governments who are thus likely to be very threatened by it.

I thus do not have a clue what will happen. It feels a bit like the Arab Spring in financial form. I may dabble a little as a gamble, as I would in a penny share. I wouldn’t bet my savings on it though.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:51 pm

i'm interested in Lisk which is like Ethereum but does not used it's own proprietary coding language, instead it used Javascript allowing every coder to write applications for it which offers a huge potential customer base.

Also Hodl!!

bluelabrador16 · Post by **bluelabrador16** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:56 pm

Maybe of interest:

RT.....The Bitcoin debate: Max Keiser vs. Steve Keen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IuXhlIbTVE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Loyalclaret · Post by **Loyalclaret** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:18 pm

IndigoLake wrote:I write about cryptocurrency for clients on a regular basis. When we're talking about Bitcoin, we can't talk about it without mentioning the blockchain. It's essentially a digital public ledger that allows for a great deal of transparency. The way it works with Bitcoin is that a transaction is made and then it's approved on the blockchain which is made up of millions of computers around the world - that's the beauty of it. It is completely decentralised and has no one point of weakness. As such, it cannot be tampered with by a third party. So if you send Bitcoin to another person your transaction will be verified by people (miners) all around the world on their computers.

I have no bitcoins or any of the other crypto currency but hope all holders make money out of it.

The points of weakness seem to be the people who hold or exchange the coins, as we’ve seen with a number disappearing.

I do wonder if/when this bursts we will be able to look back at all the the amazing predictions of ever increasing success because we all use the Internet more and it’s commentednon so much.

Or will it be like the bubbles that have predated it and seem to be ignored.

IndigoLake do you produce content/copyright for things you do not believe in regularly as writer?

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:36 pm

A very impassioned talk from Andreas Antonopolous about banks, governments, privacy and bitcoin.

https://youtu.be/DHc81OL_hk4?t=1h47m5s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:47 pm

The reason people want bitcoins is the same as the reason people want Rembrandts - because they think they'll increase in value. But the difference is, they aren't making Rembrandts any more. Rembrandts and bitcoins are increasing in value because more people want them than there are available at present. In future, there are two things which will certainly happen to bitcoins - people who have them will want to sell, and more will be made.

As long as the total number of bitcoins made + the number of people selling, is less than the number of people buying, then the price will continue to rise. If the total number made + the number selling is greater than the number buying, then the price will drop; resulting in more people wanting to sell and to get out when the going is good; and less people buying; accelerating the fall. And because the currency is intrinsically worthless and has no guarantees behind it, there is no reason why its value wouldn't drop to nothing. Just like the south sea trading companies and the tulip bulbs.

It will happen.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:58 pm

dsr wrote:The reason people want bitcoins is the same as the reason people want Rembrandts - because they think they'll increase in value. But the difference is, they aren't making Rembrandts any more. Rembrandts and bitcoins are increasing in value because more people want them than there are available at present. In future, there are two things which will certainly happen to bitcoins - people who have them will want to sell, and more will be made.

As long as the total number of bitcoins made + the number of people selling, is less than the number of people buying, then the price will continue to rise. If the total number made + the number selling is greater than the number buying, then the price will drop; resulting in more people wanting to sell and to get out when the going is good; and less people buying; accelerating the fall. And because the currency is intrinsically worthless and has no guarantees behind it, there is no reason why its value wouldn't drop to nothing. Just like the south sea trading companies and the tulip bulbs.

It will happen.

Is the current price speculation driven, yup. but that does not mean it's not a good technology with a valid use.

Also there will only ever be 21million bitcoin, no more 16.7m are currently in circulation (less as some have been lost). Governments meanwhile can print as much money as they like.
Would you look at me as less mad If I collected rare stamps as a store of value?

In Venazuela Bitcoin is a de-facto currenecy, you could say of the Venazuelan Bolivar

dsr wrote: the currency is intrinsically worthless and has no guarantees behind it"

make believe money is not the exclusive domain of Cryptocurrency, we all use it.

There's also Metcalfe's law which states the value of a network is the square of it's users. A network of anything is valuable if people use it, the more people who do the more valuable it becomes.

A frictionless, borderless, decentralised, private, delfationary, exchangeable, secure, store of wealth. I'm not saying it's current price isn't being fueled by speculation but I believe it does have value.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:52 pm

CombatClaret wrote:Also there will only ever be 21million bitcoin, no more 16.7m are currently in circulation (less as some have been lost). Governments meanwhile can print as much money as they like.

Who guarantees there will be only 21 million?

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:05 am

dsr wrote:Who guarantees there will be only 21 million?

The algorithm, the 100,000 or so miners and core developers. To some extent every one who uses a full wallet as they accept and confirm each newly minted coined and see that the next is harder to find (simplification somewhat). They could potentially change the code but that would probably break the system and you would have to get the consensus of the majority of the network who would not vote to devalue it.

These are the people who've ploded along the last few years when it was worth cents and eventually a couple dollars. Academics, programmers etc looking for a better way to do something, not get rich overnight.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:11 am

CombatClaret wrote:The algorithm, the 100,000 or so miners and core developers. To some extent every one who uses a full wallet as they accept and confirm each newly minted coined and see that the next is harder to find (simplification somewhat). They could potentially change the code but that would probably break the system and you would have to get the consensus of the majority of the network who would not vote to devalue it.

These are the people who've ploded along the last few years when it was worth cents and eventually a couple dollars. Academics, programmers etc looking for a better way to do something, not get rich overnight.

Is it a computer programme that can't fail? Can't be hacked? Can't be spammed, corrupted, or defrauded? Is invulnerable to improvements in technology? Can it be guaranteed that nothing will go wrong in the next, say, twenty years?

ElectroClaret · Post by **ElectroClaret** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:17 am

If you Google bitcoin, the figure 21 million is all over the place.

I don't know how they've arrived at this figure either.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:27 am

ElectroClaret wrote:If you Google bitcoin, the figure 21 million is all over the place.

I don't know how they've arrived at this figure either.

It's a vitally important point. If the rare stamps analogy is to work, it has to be rigidly enforced (by who?). There have been examples of rare stamps that lost all their value because the post office concerned printed some more.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:31 am

dsr wrote:Is it a computer programme that can't fail? Can't be hacked? Can't be spammed, corrupted, or defrauded? Is invulnerable to improvements in technology? Can it be guaranteed that nothing will go wrong in the next, say, twenty years?

It's possible in future, I'd be an idiot to say otherwise. But you have to attack and change every computer running it, that why being decentralised is a plus.
As opposed to having one centralised ledger like a bank has.

It is being refined as we speak too, so any improvements in technology will be implemented into it but only with the consensus of the the majority of the network.

You can spam and defraud people out of thier Bitcoin but the system is very secure. If you tried to counterfeit one you couldn't, because everyone has a copy of a verifiable ledger which says who has what any one time.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:34 am

dsr wrote:It's a vitally important point. If the rare stamps analogy is to work, it has to be rigidly enforced (by who?). There have been examples of rare stamps that lost all their value because the post office concerned printed some more.

I wasn't saying bitcoin is like collecting rare stamps. I was making the point people use lots of different things as a store of value.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:40 am

ElectroClaret wrote:If you Google bitcoin, the figure 21 million is all over the place.

I don't know how they've arrived at this figure either.

Found this in two seconds with a Google.:

Here's a mathematical explanation:
Calculate the number of blocks per 4 year cycle:

6 blocks per hour
* 24 hours per day
* 365 days per year
* 4 years per cycle
= 210,240
~= 210,000
Sum all the block reward sizes:

50 + 25 + 12.5 + 6.25 + 3.125 + ... = 100
Multiply the two:

210,000 * 100 = 21 million.

The exact number of Bitcoins is not important. Whether the end result is 1 million or 100 billion makes little real difference.

The important aspect here is the process, not the quantity.

New Bitcoins enter the system in an orderly, predicable way.
Outside forces cannot arbitrarily flood the currency with new money.
An incentive is provided for people to apply their CPU power to make the currency more secure.
Eventually, Bitcoin has to be self-supporting through transaction fees. Hence the tapering off of blockchain rewards.

Having said all that, there are some psychological advantages to having a low limit like 21 million. It was inevitable that people would see Bitcoin as being "more valuable" if the exchange rate for a whole Bitcoin was over $1. Ensuring this "high exchange rate" but making the coins highly divisible was probably a conscious design decision.

Here is the original 9 page paper on Bitcoin, including why it was created and how it works.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sourc ... jwcHh8i0Vw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BennyD · Post by **BennyD** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:04 am

This is just another dot com scam thought up by some visionary to line his pockets at the expense of people who don't fully understand what's going on. Some will end up with millions and millions will end up with nothing.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:31 am

BennyD wrote:This is just another dot com scam thought up by some visionary to line his pockets at the expense of people who don't fully understand what's going on. Some will end up with millions and millions will end up with nothing.

A scam is a 'dishonest scheme', nothing about bitcoin is dishonest, it's completely the opposite in its total transparency, you can view the code, look at the ledger, keep your own copy etc. It is 100% honest, if you buy a bitcoin that is what you get.

What people disagree on is that coin's value.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:38 am

Jel wrote:Indigo, I'm using Blockchain for Bitcoin and Markets.com for other crypto.
Blockchain has been a bit of a pain to transfer funds and I've had to do it through Coinify.
Markets.com has been fine but I think they are getting worried about the volatility of crypto and suspend trading sometimes.
Who would you suggest as an alternative way to trade?
Thanks in advance

Hi Jel, I haven't personally used Blockchain.com or Markets.com. I suppose it really depends what you're looking for...exchange with low fees, high security, reliable servers, certain payment method, advanced trading features...

I have personally used Kraken and Binance. Binance is probably the better of the two at this moment in time since Kraken has been hugely unreliable - the founder says it will receive a major update early next month. Coinbase is quite popular because it's very user-friendly but fees are a little higher. A couple of other popular options include Bittrex and Bitfinex. I recommend you take a look at those and see if any take your fancy.

Do you take your crypto off the exchange? If you don't, I strongly advise it. I like the Electrum wallet for Bitcoin.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:47 am

Loyalclaret wrote:I have no bitcoins or any of the other crypto currency but hope all holders make money out of it.

The points of weakness seem to be the people who hold or exchange the coins, as we’ve seen with a number disappearing.

I do wonder if/when this bursts we will be able to look back at all the the amazing predictions of ever increasing success because we all use the Internet more and it’s commentednon so much.

Or will it be like the bubbles that have predated it and seem to be ignored.

IndigoLake do you produce content/copyright for things you do not believe in regularly as writer?

I'd say the point of weakness you point out is also a point of strength. Bitcoins disappear if someone has a virus infect the coding of their wallet (not that common), if someone loses or forgets their private key (more common) or simply passes away without telling someone the private key. Some people trust themselves far more than they trust others - if Bitcoins are lost forever because someone forgets or loses their private key or passes away, then that goes to show that some of the wallets are pretty secure. Plus lost Bitcoins only further limits supply and increases demand. Bitcoin is in the user's control and it is their responsibility - perhaps a blessing and a curse!

With regard to your question, I spent years writing about all sorts of topics which I neither believed in nor didn't believe in. However, I enjoy writing about cryptocurrency and found that having a niche would be more profitable so I decided to specialise in it. I would say I believe in blockchain technology more than any one cryptocurrency. I'm perfectly happy to write about something I don't believe in but there's a limit. For example, I'll write an article about a cryptocurrency Ponzi scheme like BitConnect if it's a fair and honest review. However, I couldn't write one blatantly selling it to people since I'd be feeding them lies. Sorry for such a long-winded answer!