Bitcoin

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:00 am

Jel wrote:Indigo, I'm using Blockchain for Bitcoin and Markets.com for other crypto.
Blockchain has been a bit of a pain to transfer funds and I've had to do it through Coinify.
Markets.com has been fine but I think they are getting worried about the volatility of crypto and suspend trading sometimes.
Who would you suggest as an alternative way to trade?
Thanks in advance

Blockchain is a wallet rather than an exchange (although if you have a decent amount of bitcoin you should be looking at an offline wallet for extra security). Localbitcoins and bittylicious are meant to be OK for UK trading. Personally I use https://bittrex.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for trading between coins

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:01 am

I see it dropped overnight, probably due to a lot of people cashing out after it hit the mental barrier of $10,000. I suspect it will rally but we shall see.

gandhisflipflop · Post by **gandhisflipflop** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:19 pm

Don't be buying bitcoin. You will be losing money next year that's a promise. I'll be shorting it.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:25 pm

IndigoLake wrote:I write about cryptocurrency for clients on a regular basis. When we're talking about Bitcoin, we can't talk about it without mentioning the blockchain. It's essentially a digital public ledger that allows for a great deal of transparency. The way it works with Bitcoin is that a transaction is made and then it's approved on the blockchain which is made up of millions of computers around the world - that's the beauty of it. It is completely decentralised and has no one point of weakness. As such, it cannot be tampered with by a third party. So if you send Bitcoin to another person your transaction will be verified by people (miners) all around the world on their computers. Blockchain technology's potential reaches far beyond the transactions of Bitcoin. For anyone who is interested, read up a little on Ethereum. Because it's decentralised and public, the blockchain could be used for the storing of contracts and even for voting.

What I'm trying to say is that Bitcoin's value is much more than just the coding that makes up the coins. There's good technology there and I believe it has the potential to change the world. Banks are threatened by it and some have even looked at investing in it themselves. The advantages of Bitcoin are that it's decentralised, transactions are quicker and cheaper than with banking, it provides a level of anonymity (you don't attach any personal information to your Bitcoin wallet) and much more. Personally, I'm invested in a few coins other than Bitcoin. While I respect Bitcoin for leading the way, the technology offered by some other coins is far better. Some have much quicker transactions, cheaper fees, more privacy and so on. Happy to give advice if anybody is interested as it's something I find fascinating

Hi IndigoLake, I guess we can separate bitcoin from blockchain.... I'm interested in understanding what blockchain offers - how it works - and why, for example, anyone would want to store their contracts in a "decentralised and public" arena.

So, you describe blockchain as "a digital public ledger" - and it's made up of "millions of computers around the world..." What does this mean? How is a blockchain created? How many computers are required to start a blockchain? What happens if other people/computers want to join the blockchain? Similarly, what happens if people/computers chose to leave?

What does "decentralised" mean in your description? And, who would be a "third party" who might want to tamper with the records? What if the "third party" who wants to tamper is also a member of the blockchain - but is not part of the transaction (contract, or whatever)?

"Voting" - so, I feel this implies there are rules on voting and a body that governs the outcome of a vote? Who chooses the governing body? Can anyone join the governing body? How does this work with "millions of computers around the world?"

Why are banks "threatened by it?" Is my bank account, my savings with bank X or Y also threatened by it? I've seen that banks are looking at blockchain. Is the opportunity for banks that it can improve on their, generally old, banking systems? And, I can agree that there is a lot of scope for improvement in the speed of transmitting money from a bank account in one country to another bank (and bank account) in another country - particularly when there are several correspondent banks connector the two banks and clients bank accounts.

Loyalclaret · Post by **Loyalclaret** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:38 pm

To get a very basic understanding of Bitcoin I watched this on the Internet some time ago Paul.

Your questions may be genuine or rhetorical but I found it interesting. Gave some history, the people involved, the interaction with regulators and the bank system.

http://m.imdb.com/title/tt5033790/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Banking in Bitcoins

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:57 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi IndigoLake, I guess we can separate bitcoin from blockchain.... I'm interested in understanding what blockchain offers - how it works - and why, for example, anyone would want to store their contracts in a "decentralised and public" arena.

So, you describe blockchain as "a digital public ledger" - and it's made up of "millions of computers around the world..." What does this mean? How is a blockchain created? How many computers are required to start a blockchain? What happens if other people/computers want to join the blockchain? Similarly, what happens if people/computers chose to leave?

What does "decentralised" mean in your description? And, who would be a "third party" who might want to tamper with the records? What if the "third party" who wants to tamper is also a member of the blockchain - but is not part of the transaction (contract, or whatever)?

"Voting" - so, I feel this implies there are rules on voting and a body that governs the outcome of a vote? Who chooses the governing body? Can anyone join the governing body? How does this work with "millions of computers around the world?"

Why are banks "threatened by it?" Is my bank account, my savings with bank X or Y also threatened by it? I've seen that banks are looking at blockchain. Is the opportunity for banks that it can improve on their, generally old, banking systems? And, I can agree that there is a lot of scope for improvement in the speed of transmitting money from a bank account in one country to another bank (and bank account) in another country - particularly when there are several correspondent banks connector the two banks and clients bank accounts.

Hi Paul Waine. Plenty of questions there and I'll do my best to answer them all in the time I have!

A block is a set of transactions. Blocks are connected to each other in chronological order over time, hence the chain. The blockchain network is made up of nodes (computers connected voluntarily to the network). The more nodes, the more secure the network. In order to run a node and be connected to the network, a person would need to download the Bitcoin core client and basically keep running it. Now, Bitcoin's blockchain is made up of millions of nodes (computers running this Bitcoin core client, connected to the network). As the blockchain grows, the demands of storage, bandwidth and power are all higher. In theory, very few computers are required to start a blockchain as long as there's little information stored on it. As it grows, more nodes are needed. If a person wants to join or leave the blockchain (ie set up or abandon a node) they can do so at any time.

Decentralised refers to the fact that Bitcoin (and indeed most cryptocurrencies) are not controlled by any one person or entity. So Bitcoin is held by millions of people and the records are accessible by anybody with a computer and an internet connection. Because these records are stored in such a way, they are safe from tampering since they're not located in one central location. Records cannot be tampered with without the network becoming aware and rejecting the changes made. So who would want to interfere with something on the blockchain? It could be anyone from a lone hacker to a corrupt government. If a third party wanted to tamper with a transaction in the blockchain, they could attempt do so but it would not be approved as the information stored on the other computers would have a different record, rejecting it by consensus.

Regarding voting, I perhaps wasn't clear enough in my original comment. With regard to voting, the blockchain could be used to store voting records without the fear of vote manipulation. How that would work in practice is not something I can answer however since the technology is still being designed and developed - I can only speculate. I cannot see how a governing body would be necessary since the results of the vote would be apparent in the blockchain across the whole network of computers. Regardless, this is all just speculation but the fact that this is being explored is pretty exciting in my opinion.

Banks are threatened by cryptocurrency and the blockchain because it's decentralised and offers people many things that centralised banking institutions cannot. They will always be threatened by something that takes money, power and control away from them because their biggest fear is people realising that they don't need banks. Yes, banks such as Santander have partnerships with the likes of Ripple. However Ripple is somewhat controversial in cryptocurrency as many argue that it's not actually decentralised. I can see more and more financial institutions adopting this new technology in order to offer themselves and clients cheaper and faster transactions.

I hope this answers your questions. I don't have a lot of time this morning so I'll come back with more info if I think of anything to add.

Edit - you asked why somebody would want to store a contract on the blockchain. A contract can be stored on the blockchain without all of the private information being made public. Contracts would be secured with cryptography making them much safer than traditional paper contracts. Essentially, the coding behind it would allow the contract to execute a particular action when a condition is fulfilled such as a price target or an expiration date, depending on the type of contract. The people behind the contract would remain anonymous. The advantages of having a contract on the blockchain is that it offers autonomy - no need for a third party such as a lawyer and the costs involved. Also, you don't need to rely on trust and the other party not backing out or claiming they lost a particular document, for example.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:07 am

IndigoLake wrote:Hi Paul Waine. Plenty of questions there and I'll do my best to answer them all in the time I have!

(detailed text deleted - see full response above: PW).

I hope this answers your questions. I don't have a lot of time this morning so I'll come back with more info if I think of anything to add.

Thanks, IL. Helpful.

My big interest is in understanding blockchain - rather than bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. I'm trying to understand if blockchain has advantages in the trading world: derivatives, commodity trades and such. I know there are people who say they are looking at these things. But, I wonder whether they are starting from a lack of knowledge of the components and record keeping that are required for these types of trades to work...

Re voting: I thought that bitcoin had "split" a few months back, that some bitcoin "miners" (are they all miners?) had voted to make some changes and others had voted against them. I'm not sure did the changes introduce "bitcoin lite" (or something similar)? In a broader sense, how is a "consensus" identified if it's not through a process of expressing opinions and "voting?"

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:13 am

Blockchain is very interesting and I suspect Paul Waine gets invited to many of the same seminars that I do which are about blockchain applications for law, banking, finance, etc. It's an area that I really feel I should learn more about when I get some free time if anyone wants to suggest some reading.

On the decentralised thing, I have a very small investment in a coin called Crown where you can set up a systemnode which acts as another machine on the network. There's a small return of about coin a day and hosting costs of about $5 per month (to run a computer on the network). It's more out of curiosity than an expectation of a return (the return on the coins may easily be outweighed by the exchange rate fluctuations). There are currently a few thousand machines in the network (and that is increasing by about 600 a week for an idea of how decentralised these things can become) https://crowncentral.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:26 am

Paul Waine wrote:Thanks, IL. Helpful.

Re voting: I thought that bitcoin had "split" a few months back, that some bitcoin "miners" (are they all miners?) had voted to make some changes and others had voted against them. I'm not sure did the changes introduce "bitcoin lite" (or something similar)? In a broader sense, how is a "consensus" identified if it's not through a process of expressing opinions and "voting?"

My understanding is you essentially need 51% of miners to follow any change to the source code. There have been changes which have been given full support, If however some smaller fraction decides to add changes which are incompatible with the original core Bitcoin a 'hard fork' occurs where a token based on bitcoin but is incompatible is created. This has happened before with Bcash, Bitcoin Gold. One oddity is that anyone holding Bitcoin at the time is also given a duplicate of the new token.

There was a large split penciled last month but it was very contentious as it appeared to be a take over by a few large players in the market but did not represent the larger mining community. As such it was called off when it was apparent the network would not follow them.

FYI I'm only an enthusiast so IL may well give you more insightful information.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:37 pm

Just heard that R4 will do Money Programme Live on Bitcoin - this coming Wednesday lunchtime.

Funkydrummer · Post by **Funkydrummer** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:41 pm

I tried to subscribe to Sportsmania, who only accept payment by Bitcoin. I will try anything once
and I am not slow by any stretch of the imagination but it was a nightmare trying to work out what
and how to do it. I firstly registered with localbitcoins.com, which was the easy bit (excuse the pun)

From then on in it was a nightmare and so unnecessarily complicated that I packed it in. From sending
selfies holding your clear form of ID, to having to send a message to the seller and completing "I'm
not an effing robot" forms finally ending up with 5 separate tabs open all at the same time. Some of
the sellers had a minimum sales figure which wasn't disclosed until you got a fair way into the process.

AND ALL THIS FOR A 34 DOLLAR SUBSCRIPTION - My final message to the seller was :-

"I am not p!ssing about with this any longer, and am going to look elsewhere".

Have not heard back from him.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:21 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Thanks, IL. Helpful.

My big interest is in understanding blockchain - rather than bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. I'm trying to understand if blockchain has advantages in the trading world: derivatives, commodity trades and such. I know there are people who say they are looking at these things. But, I wonder whether they are starting from a lack of knowledge of the components and record keeping that are required for these types of trades to work...

Re voting: I thought that bitcoin had "split" a few months back, that some bitcoin "miners" (are they all miners?) had voted to make some changes and others had voted against them. I'm not sure did the changes introduce "bitcoin lite" (or something similar)? In a broader sense, how is a "consensus" identified if it's not through a process of expressing opinions and "voting?"

Sorry for the slow reply. In reference to your first question, not everyone who buys and sells Bitcoin is a Bitcoin miner. Bitcoin miners serve two purposes: they secure the network by confirming transactions and they create new Bitcoins. New Bitcoins are created through computers solving increasingly complex puzzles. Once upon a time, a normal CPU could solve these puzzles. However, nowadays the competition and complexity is such that ASICs are best. The problem with ASICs (basically mining machines in this case) is that they're expensive and so mining has become somewhat centralised in the case of Bitcoin. Ie you get these things called mining pools (the largest of which are based in China where electricity is cheaper) and these mining pools are made up of lots of Bitcoin miners who are pooling their resources together.

There have been a number of Bitcoin forks. In particular there were two hard forks resulting in the creation of Bitcoin Cash and Bitcoin Gold. Only miners vote since they're the ones who are actually doing the work in creating the currency in the first place. They're better placed than anyone to say if a new chain is needed or not. The way voting works (as I understand it) is that in each block mined by a miner, there is a space in which they can write a short message - it's within this they can indicate whether they support the hard fork or not (ie starting a new chain or continuing on the current one). Hope that makes sense.

Funkydrummer · Post by **Funkydrummer** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:32 pm

Here's an example of their attempt at an explanation, bearing in mind I only want to bloody pay
Sportsmania 34 bloody dollars :-

LocalBitcoins users who create advertisements are charged a 1% fee for every completed trade.
Bitcoin transaction fees
Transactions to wallets of other LocalBitcoins users are free.
Transactions to other Bitcoin wallets are subject to Bitcoin network transaction fee. The current fee is visible on the wallet page under the heading Bitcoin Network Fees. The size of the fee changes depending on the current usage rate of the Bitcoin blockchain, we automatically adjust this fee based on the current network congestion to make sure your transactions are confirmed as quickly as possible. The transaction fee is paid from your LocalBitcoins wallet when you send a transaction.
When sending to LocalBitcoins wallet, a bitcoin network fee is deducted from the deposit. The fee varies on how congested the Bitcoin Network is. If your deposit amount is smaller than the bitcoin deposit fee, the deposit will not be processed. The current sending fee is visible on the wallet page under the heading Incoming transactions and fees.
Other fees
When using our merchant invoicing services a fee of 0.5% is deducted from the paid invoice amount of each invoice. Also Bitcoin network deposit fee is deducted from the invoice amount, if the invoice is paid with an external transaction.
Custom work, e.g. research of possible external problems, is 200 EUR/hour paid in Bitcoin at the current market rate. Minimum billable amount is 200 EUR.

FFS, is all that necessary for a simple payment to be made ?

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:59 pm

I just looked today.

I did a bit of mining (2 days or so, about 4 years ago) and what was worth about 5p a when I last looked is now worth a fiver!

I've got a whopping 0.00007 of a coin!

Don't rob me!

gandhisflipflop · Post by **gandhisflipflop** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:16 pm

And my post is ignored. When it falls through the floor next year I will revisit this thread.

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:28 pm

Someone my brother works with bought £1k about a month ago when it was around £6k and sold when it hit £10k.

He tried to sell when it was dropping the other day on Coinbase and couldn't actually sell them.

This is far too volatile for me to be interested in.

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:32 pm

gandhisflipflop wrote:And my post is ignored. When it falls through the floor next year I will revisit this thread.

Your post was probably ignored because there was no substance to it. People like yourself have been claiming the death of Bitcoin for years and it just goes from strength to strength. Is it a case that you just don't understand it? Or do you actually have some reason and rationale to your claims?

Also, is it just Bitcoin that you think will fail or is it the case for all cryptocurrencies? Do you have the same pessimism regarding blockchain technology?

Carter2711 · Post by **Carter2711** » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:28 pm

I have recently got involved with the Bitcoin business and I use usi tech who mine the Bitcoin so I gain a % a day on my capital regardless of Bitcoin value and obviously seeing it rise so much is like a double profit for me as I buy pacakges at £50 a pop. It's making me quite a bit of money wether this will last is another question! I guess it's just a gamble in a way.

http://roadmaps.global/carter2711/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:45 am

I am not daft. However, I having read the detailed posts, I have no idea how bitcoin interacts with real money and how you get in and out of the system. Not only that, I have no understanding of the value or point of the exercise.
The language and explanations were detailed and yet almost a foreign language to my eyes!

I am pretty chuffed this week as I paid for some shopping on my phone, in Aldi, ad I had forgotten my wallet! I don't think Aldi accept Bitcoin.

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:08 am

USI Tech are a 'ponzi scheme' that recruits miners. I have had a friend of mine trying to recruit me for a while but just don't see it holding. I have a mate who trades daily and is making some serious cash but I also have a mate who 'invested' in something similar to USI and it crashed leaving him with nothing.

USI Tech is headed by 2 gentlemen who have already been done for fraud and people are being warned off it as they are listed on a banks website as being known fraudsters running different ponzi schemes over the years!

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:13 am

IanMcL wrote:I am not daft. However, I having read the detailed posts, I have no idea how bitcoin interacts with real money and how you get in and out of the system. Not only that, I have no understanding of the value or point of the exercise.
The language and explanations were detailed and yet almost a foreign language to my eyes!

I am pretty chuffed this week as I paid for some shopping on my phone, in Aldi, ad I had forgotten my wallet! I don't think Aldi accept Bitcoin.

Hi IanMcL. You can buy and sell Bitcoin on a Bitcoin exchange of which there are many online. Bitcoin exchanges vary but it's possible to pay via bank transfer, debit/credit card and even PayPal in some cases. So getting in and out of the system is as simple as setting up an account on an exchange, transferring funds and buying some Bitcoin. When you want to sell, you sell and transfer the fiat currency back to your account, PayPal or whatever.

You're right that Aldi doesn't yet accept Bitcoin! Bitcoin is still in its very early stage in terms of being accepted as a payment method. However it's making huge progress. Here are some of the companies who accept Bitcoin at least for selected products or in certain locations: Wordpress, Microsoft, Expedia, Steam, Subway. I think we'll see this number grow a great deal over the coming months and years. However, it may well include other cryptocurrencies such as Litecoin which has much faster transactions (making it more practical for day-to-day spending).

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:03 pm

Carter2711 wrote:I have recently got involved with the Bitcoin business and I use usi tech who mine the Bitcoin so I gain a % a day on my capital regardless of Bitcoin value and obviously seeing it rise so much is like a double profit for me as I buy pacakges at £50 a pop. It's making me quite a bit of money wether this will last is another question! I guess it's just a gamble in a way.

http://roadmaps.global/carter2711/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What carter isn't saying here is that Usi tech looks like a scam and the main way of getting money is by getting other people to sign up, hence the link.

Carter2711 · Post by **Carter2711** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:19 pm

aggi wrote:What carter isn't saying here is that Usi tech looks like a scam and the main way of getting money is by getting other people to sign up, hence the link.

Hi aggi

No I don't agree with you here, yes to a point getting people involved does earn me capital but it's not the be all and end all by any means. I gain 1% a day on what I put in regardless of people joining up. The link above is actually my journey on it and information regarding the company. I have seen no reason to believe this is a scam as I have withdrawn more than I have put in anyway so I'm technically onto a profit. I treat it as a game!

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:53 pm

Carter2711 wrote:Hi aggi

No I don't agree with you here, yes to a point getting people involved does earn me capital but it's not the be all and end all by any means. I gain 1% a day on what I put in regardless of people joining up. The link above is actually my journey on it and information regarding the company. I have seen no reason to believe this is a scam as I have withdrawn more than I have put in anyway so I'm technically onto a profit. I treat it as a game!

Have you managed to withdraw any cash or is it just a number rising every day?

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:21 pm

Carter2711 wrote:Hi aggi

No I don't agree with you here, yes to a point getting people involved does earn me capital but it's not the be all and end all by any means. I gain 1% a day on what I put in regardless of people joining up. The link above is actually my journey on it and information regarding the company. I have seen no reason to believe this is a scam as I have withdrawn more than I have put in anyway so I'm technically onto a profit. I treat it as a game!

Hi Carter, is that 1% per day or 1% per annum per day? Can someone do the maths? what is 1% per day compound for 365 days?

I don't know anything about USI Tech. It is possible that all cryptocurrencies are Ponzi schemes of one form or another. The fact that people are able to take out money in the early stages isn't evidence that it's not a Ponzi scam.

Wiki has a long list of "Ponzi schemes." A few of the ones mentioned in recent years include cryptocurrencies.

Including this quote:" The ~$30 billion Ethereum cryptocurrency Initial coin offering was referred to as the first "smart ponzi" by the Financial Times' Alphaville blog and as a ponzi scheme by the Atlantic Monthly in May-June, 2017."

wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ponzi_schemes

I'm a bit surprised to see Ethereum listed. I've heard this one promoted by people I with reputable backgrounds. But, wasn't Bernie Madoff well thought of by his "investors" for several decades before his Ponzi scheme came crumbling down?

Struck me as a little ironic that when I looked up Ponzi schemes on wiki the first thing I see is wiki asking everyone for £2... but, I guess these things need to keep going... If I was them I'd be asking google and the other browsers to cover their costs.

CombatClaret · Post by **CombatClaret** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:12 am

You can spot the Ponzi schemes a mile off, Bitconnect and maybe USI Tech.

Classic signs:
Offering daily compounding interest. So a $1000 investment at 1% daily worth is worth $50 million+ in 3 years.... Sounds legit :roll
Heavily insensitivity to use the affiliate schemes to bring in more members.
Encouraged to re-invest rather than withdraw.

Scams, giving Bitcoin a bad name.

Carter2711 · Post by **Carter2711** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:10 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:Have you managed to withdraw any cash or is it just a number rising every day?

Yes I have managed to withdraw some cash out

Carter2711 · Post by **Carter2711** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:16 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi Carter, is that 1% per day or 1% per annum per day? Can someone do the maths? what is 1% per day compound for 365 days?

I don't know anything about USI Tech. It is possible that all cryptocurrencies are Ponzi schemes of one form or another. The fact that people are able to take out money in the early stages isn't evidence that it's not a Ponzi scam.

Wiki has a long list of "Ponzi schemes." A few of the ones mentioned in recent years include cryptocurrencies.

Including this quote:" The ~$30 billion Ethereum cryptocurrency Initial coin offering was referred to as the first "smart ponzi" by the Financial Times' Alphaville blog and as a ponzi scheme by the Atlantic Monthly in May-June, 2017."

wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ponzi_schemes

I'm a bit surprised to see Ethereum listed. I've heard this one promoted by people I with reputable backgrounds. But, wasn't Bernie Madoff well thought of by his "investors" for several decades before his Ponzi scheme came crumbling down?

Struck me as a little ironic that when I looked up Ponzi schemes on wiki the first thing I see is wiki asking everyone for £2... but, I guess these things need to keep going... If I was them I'd be asking google and the other browsers to cover their costs.

I get my returns based on a 5 day working week, and with this I can rebuy further packs to gain more of a daily return or withdraw at my convenience. Currently I have been in for 2 months now and I have withdrawn cash, albeit a small amount to actually see if it was possible because like you guys I'm sceptical! If it sounds too good to be true it usually is but with this I'm seeing a decent return. I'm sure many of these schemes are deemed as scams, I am no salesman or financial advisor I just posted my link to see if people are doing similar things and what sort of results they were getting.

At the end of the day there are many ways of getting involved in Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies by buying direct or something similar to what I'm involved in.

cockneyclaret · Post by **cockneyclaret** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:37 am

These % sites are all a scam, but scams that work..
All depends when you get on etc.. I'm currently on chain.group which pays me around $10 per day and has been doing so since Oct.
I normally take out £70 once a week and top up my said coins.
My initial investment has now been covered and now basically getting free money! Yes I know the site could close any day but I knew the risks. (A safe gamble)
If anyone is interested in a decent ICO, this comes live today.. Steneum will be a big coin..
My last one isn't doing too bad lol minexcoin

Loyalclaret · Post by **Loyalclaret** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:42 am

It’s good you feel involved, I hope you make lots of cash (which you can withdraw) and it’s doesn’t fall to pieces once the system fails to recruit new investors.

If it is a Ponzi scam you can feel reassured sensible people have been falling for it for years and years.

cockneyclaret · Post by **cockneyclaret** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:15 am

Most of my money is on BTC and alt coins which is safe enough for me.
The Ponzi schemes will fall apart but I've got my investment back so I'm happy..
Only play with what you can afford to lose

Loyalclaret · Post by **Loyalclaret** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:19 am

Apologies my reply was to Carter.

Aye f**k those who get involved in the scam after you

timshorts · Post by **timshorts** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:32 am

I hope thsee transactions are all subject to capital gains tax or some equivalent tax.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:18 am

Put it this way, a £1 investment compounding daily at 1% would give you six quadrillion pounds (six followed by fifteen zeroes) after 10 years.

USI Tech don't mine bitcoin, they do mine some alternative currencies but these are generally smaller in nature with less opportunity for significant profit. They attempt to play the margins on the markets to make profits (although people are struggling to identify the transactions involved in the blockchain) but the common consensus is that the market isn't big enough with enough arbitrage opportunities to make the profits they are claiming. They also lied about buying $70m of Bitcoin.

In the short-term if you're far enough up the chain you may get away with constantly taking the money out and getting a return so long as you don't feel guilty about screwing over those further down the chain (i.e. people you've recommended to invest in the scheme).

It's a pyramid scheme, it will only last so long as more members can be tempted in, it will end with those at the bottom being screwed.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:21 am

timshorts wrote:I hope thsee transactions are all subject to capital gains tax or some equivalent tax.

Guidance is a bit unclear at the moment. One school of thought is that they are so speculative that it is more like gambling and so tax-free. For the more established currencies then CGT is probably due but they're being reviewed on a case by case basis.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:40 am

The Times, today:

Drug gangs launder cash using bitcoin ATMs in corner shops

Drug dealers are using cryptocurrency cash machines to launder their money, police say.

Cash is fed into unregulated machines that convert it into currencies such as bitcoin that are outside national controls. It can then be moved around the world without checks. Dealers are attracted to the method because cash has become harder to launder, police said.

Detective Inspector Tim Court, of Scotland Yard’s fraud squad, said: “It’s a great opportunity for them to dispose of cash quickly. You can shift it across borders, send it anywhere in the world to buy commodities.”

Bitcoin has become increasingly attractive to criminals as its value has risen. Last week it was trading above $11,000 (£8,164).
There are more than 70 cryptocurrency ATMs in convenience stores across London. Users can transfer cash into cryptocurrency provided they have set up an online wallet. Several ATMs allow transactions of up to £500 with no identification.

Drug dealers also like to dispose of the cash in case they get stopped by police or robbed by fellow criminals.

The Metropolitan Police are increasingly working with the authorities in other countries to seize criminal assets that were purchased using bitcoin.
The inspector said that cryptocurrency had been created by honest people but “would appear to have been hijacked by some people in the criminal underworld”. Some cryptocurrencies are designed to hide transactions, making tracking even harder.

Raj Samani, chief technology officer of the global security firm McAfee, said: “There is no doubt that digital currencies facilitate money laundering . . . In addition to virtual currencies [being used] in cybercrime, there appears to be evidence of their use in ‘traditional’ physical crime. For some criminals cash is no longer king.”

A recent report published by Mr Samani, a Europol adviser, found that “electronic currencies act as the main method of payment for illicit products such as drugs”.

He said: “Virtual currencies offer a number of benefits . . . they are reliable, relatively instant and anonymous. Even when privacy issues have been raised with particular currencies, notably bitcoin, the market has responded with extensions to provide greater anonymity.”

The government hopes to crack down on the use of bitcoin in money laundering and tax-dodging. Measures expected to come into force by early next year will require exchange platforms and wallet providers to disclose their identity and report suspicious activity, according to The Daily Telegraph.
The ATMs are run by individual entrepreneurs and companies who connect them to the digital exchange.

A shopkeeper in Brixton, south London, who did not want to be identified, said: “Sometimes the machine will not be used at all and then you’ll get several guys coming in a short space. It is mainly youngish guys.”

Last week more than £27 million in illicit money transfers using digital currency was uncovered by Europol. About 90 per cent of 1,719 illegal transactions identified during the campaign were linked to cybercrime, with cryptocurrencies such as bitcoin playing an increasing role in money-laundering schemes, the agency said.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:18 pm

aggi wrote:Guidance is a bit unclear at the moment. One school of thought is that they are so speculative that it is more like gambling and so tax-free. For the more established currencies then CGT is probably due but they're being reviewed on a case by case basis.

I'm pretty sure any gain on owning cryptocurrencies would be subject to CGT - it applies on all assets.

In a legal sense it's not a gamble: buy....sell (or sell short and then buy) - very different from a bet on the 3:30 at Haydock or the spin or a roulette wheel....

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:58 pm

Paul Waine wrote:I'm pretty sure any gain on owning cryptocurrencies would be subject to CGT - it applies on all assets.

In a legal sense it's not a gamble: buy....sell (or sell short and then buy) - very different from a bet on the 3:30 at Haydock or the spin or a roulette wheel....

That's the HMRC guidance at the moment:
Whether any profit or gain is chargeable or any loss is allowable will be looked at on a case-by-case basis taking into account the specific facts. Each case will be considered on the basis of its own individual facts and circumstances. The relevant legislation and case law will be applied to determine the correct tax treatment. Therefore, depending on the facts, a transaction may be so highly speculative that it is not taxable or any losses relievable.. For example gambling or betting wins are not taxable and gambling losses cannot be offset against other taxable profits.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... currencies" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Potentially they don't want a load of losses which can be offset against more traditional CGT areas.

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:10 pm

aggi wrote:That's the HMRC guidance at the moment:
Whether any profit or gain is chargeable or any loss is allowable will be looked at on a case-by-case basis taking into account the specific facts. Each case will be considered on the basis of its own individual facts and circumstances. The relevant legislation and case law will be applied to determine the correct tax treatment. Therefore, depending on the facts, a transaction may be so highly speculative that it is not taxable or any losses relievable.. For example gambling or betting wins are not taxable and gambling losses cannot be offset against other taxable profits.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... currencies" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Potentially they don't want a load of losses which can be offset against more traditional CGT areas.

Hi aggi, if I'm reading this HMRC guidance correctly, I think it says that bitcoin gains (and losses) are subject to CGT:

"Gains and losses incurred on Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies are chargeable or allowable for CGT if they accrue to an individual..."

HMRC guidance is dated Mar-2014. Given that there are now some futures exchanges (CME, I understand) that quotes contracts related to bitcoin, I'd expect the HMRC guidance may be due for an update.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:25 am

James O'Brien doing an hour on this now

ebby · Post by **ebby** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:37 pm

My son bought Bitcoin when it was just under US$6.6K - its now over US$11.5K
I only asked him to buy me a small amount - wish now I had gone in for more....

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:45 pm

I entered the market 3 weeks ago, with $1,250 against my credit card. My crypto of choice was eth.x. I bought in at $331. My exchange is coinbase.

I've since shorted ethereum, selling half at $462 firstly into Litecoin, buying roughly 10 of them at $92.79, and it currently sits at $102.23
Yesterday I then converted the other half of my eth.x into iota.x (this is now a relationship between eth.x and iota.x - I don't quite understand it). I bought iota.x at 0.00626 and it currently sits at 0.00666 (changes every second)...

I'm long in both of these cryptos.

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:47 pm

indigolake - my iota.x exchange is binance.com. Signed up and transferred eth.x into it to buy iota.x...... eventually figured out the transaction. However, I have no clue how to exit if I want to short it.... can you take a look? My guess is convert back to eth.x then transfer over to coinbase?

Loyalclaret · Post by **Loyalclaret** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:11 pm

NRC why are you trading or investing with money from a credit card- or is that the only way to upload your money?

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:49 pm

it was the easiest way to transfer money/open the coinbase wallet, loyalclaret

NRC · Post by **NRC** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:12 pm

To the notion of blockchain brought up earlier...... I just got back from a major European IT industry event. In it I "owned" 3 "discussion forums." these are for 1 expert:6-max customers at a table, and not sessions delivered to a wider audience. The reason for this is sessions are limited in number and at this time IT vendors are not seeing the revenue to justify kicking out a bigger ticket subject (at this point).

All 3 of these intimate 1:6 engagements were drowned out by audiences in excess of 40 each time.... there's clearly a reaction/thirst for more info in the industry. I spoke with a couple of "born-in-the-cloud" online UK banks too, and blockchain is a potential hit to that strategy as the industry needs to figure out how to provide blockchain licensing as part of the cloud subscription packaging/charges

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:58 pm

Article in the Guardian on-line - think it also references a report in Telegraph:

UK and EU are progressing with regulations that will require all people holding/transaction etc in cryptocurrencies, bitcoin and all the rest, to have their identities verified. Anti-money laundering regulations will be extended to crypto-exchanges, wallet holders etc.

It's reported as being aimed at stopping bitcoin being used for money-laundering, other criminal activities (drugs, terrorism) and tax evasion.

Guardian said these rules might operate early in 2018. And, reference brexit, this is something the UK as well as EU27 are keen to do.

Out of interest, any of you guys who have bought bitcoin et al, were you subject to "anti-money laundering verification of identity" when you started dealing?

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:25 pm

Yep. Pretty much all of them went through standard AML stuff (passport/utility bill) if you wanted to buy/sell more than a few pounds.

In fact didn't this thread start because someone's colleague couldn't cash out as they hadn't done the AML stuff.

gandhisflipflop · Post by **gandhisflipflop** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:20 pm

IndigoLake wrote:Your post was probably ignored because there was no substance to it. People like yourself have been claiming the death of Bitcoin for years and it just goes from strength to strength. Is it a case that you just don't understand it? Or do you actually have some reason and rationale to your claims?

Also, is it just Bitcoin that you think will fail or is it the case for all cryptocurrencies? Do you have the same pessimism regarding blockchain technology?

The big money people are manipulating the markets. They are luring speculative traders like many on here to believe the price is going long. When they get enough orders they will reverse their positions and take all your profits similar to what happened in the 2008 crash. We have already seen an indecision in the markets recently and early next year it will drop like a stone.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:55 pm

IndigoLake wrote:Your post was probably ignored because there was no substance to it. People like yourself have been claiming the death of Bitcoin for years and it just goes from strength to strength. Is it a case that you just don't understand it? Or do you actually have some reason and rationale to your claims?

Also, is it just Bitcoin that you think will fail or is it the case for all cryptocurrencies? Do you have the same pessimism regarding blockchain technology?

Bitcoin is the "safest" of the cryptocurrencies because it's the first one, it has built a reputation, and its theoretical maximum number of units in existence is believed to be true. "Other cryptocurrencies" as a bloc are infinite, so if you don't have enough of one, you can create a new one of your own. No wealth needed, it's just a clever computer program.