Jimmy Dunne returns to Burnley with glowing praise

[kentonclaret]

Kevin Long had a loan spell at Accrington earlier in his playing career.

Didn't seem to do him any harm.

[ClaretTony]

With todays transfer fees we only need one every so often to come through.
However given how far behind we were at youth level this will take time. Jimmy Dunne an excellent example of taking those released by bigger academies. However they are 17 etc so have different developmental needs.
We acquired Martin Dobson and Paul Fletcher this way. Also took a punt on Glen Little.
If we only loaned players to championship clubs we are cutting of our nose.
Metz (i know nothing about him) has signed for Chorley. They play Harrogate a full time team tomorrow. There is two ways to look at this. Either it will help him develop playing against men or the club have decided they wont need him next year and are getting him out there so he will get a contract somewhere next year. Either way its good for the player.

Not sure you meant Fletcher, we paid a club record fee to sign him.

[ClaretTony]

On the subject of Dunne playing way below our requirements, according to one poster, it might be worth noting that at the same age Michael Duff was on loan from Cheltenham to a club way down the pyramid. I know it doesn't mean anything but he was aged 26 before he ever played a Championship game.

[MACCA]

Regarding attracting youth players and/or seeing some progress, it will be about 6-8 years before we see any that really come through, or we get genuinely excited about IMO.

2 reasons for this is.
Firstly, it may take a year or so for word to get round about our set up and facilities, before people will put their trust in us rather than the usual talked about academies.

Secondly, at 12 years old the goal posts ( restricted scouting range ) changes. This means clubs no longer need to purely scout locally for players, they can come from anywhere.
This then in turn has a ripple effect down the line.
The likes of Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool and Everton will no longer have 30 local kids in their 12-16 groups as they may opt to take in players from all over the world. Those kids who were once deemed the best 30 available in the area, some will now have to find new clubs.

This is where Burnley and many others will try and step in ( hopefully ) They may have missed out the first time round when these parents chose the bright lights of the big clubs, but we can be the blanket under those big 4, in this area that then rescues these lads.

In a basic way, City will have the best 30 kids in this area at 11, come 12 they may opt to sign 15 new kids from anywhere once the restrictions are lifted. Then 15 of the best kids from the previous season become available ( same thing will happen at the other 3 aforementioned clubs ) leaving the next band of clubs hoping to land any they thought were good enough or got impressed by . Probably the likes of the Sheffield clubs, Stoke, Blackburn etc. Then their under 12s follow the same suit due to new arrivals from potentially City and the lifted restrictions ( probably not as many ) and their released players go to the next level down, and so on and so forth.

We were previously at about level 4 in this area on reputation and facilities, so unless we got them in at 8 right through to 18, we were highly unlikely to catch the maybe's dropping down.

Now however we are firmly right under those big 4 in terms of facilities, now it's all about getting the reputation up.
Of course the whole process accelerates and compliments each other part as soon as, or when the kids start making first team appearances.

So it's a slow process, but one that has started, and one that will in time show results.

Edit - sorry this was done on my phone, and quite quickly, so please excuse any poor spelling or grammar

[superdimitri]

Its quite simple really, if we have a prospect loaned out at such a low level its just obvious they aren't good enough. The higher you can loan a player whilst guaranteeing play time the more they improve.

Don't agree that "playing with men" will give them a boost, they need to being at a decent level. May as well stay and play for our Dev Squad otherwise. Otherwise we end up with players who just have zero technical ability (look at Tom Anderson).

Things have changed as soon 10 years ago, no good mentioning players who have come through like Defoe when the gap between leagues and the gap between us and the better teams is so much bigger now.

There is just no sense in backing youth any more, its a waste of time and effort. You're far better off spending the money on buying young players who don't quite make the cut at better teams. I'd rather we we're wiser with our time and just focused more on the first team, having a couple of 22-23 year olds knocking on the door to our first time wouldn't go a miss if they were actually decent quality.

The situation right now is we just don't have young players good enough and have an ageing first team. There is such a massive gap between our first team quality and those of youngsters coming through its just not going to work.

[ClaretTony]

Its quite simple really, if we have a prospect loaned out at such a low level its just obvious they aren't good enough.

So, basically we can sack the team that make the decisions on all these players (manager, chief exec, acadamy head etc.) and leave it all to you if it is all that obvious to you.

[superdimitri]

Yeah, invest the money in better scouts instead. Don't see what is wrong with that. Forget about developing Dunne and buy him for a few mill if he starts to do well in a respectable league. Less risk and more gained. The real money is to be made that way than it is hoping we get a star once every few years.

[claretspice]

There's certainly a serious debate to be had about youth development if all we are doing is producing at our expense is players for our lower division friends around the north west (oh go on then, lets include Rovers in that). However, before Howe's "changes" to the system, we were doing a bit better than that. We'd produced Rodriguez, McCann and Lafferty all of whom (until injuries and/or attitude variously got the better of them) looked likely to be competent top flight players, plus Chaplow who was probably a notch below in quality.

Jimmy Dunne might make it at Burnley; he might not. Others make a valid point about the length of the process of maturing a top player. Jimmy Dunne is 19. He's had a very successful loan spell in the Conference, he's stepping up to League 2 for the second half of the season. Its not too much of a leap to suggest that a straight line development would have him first team ready for us at 21 - which is absolutely fine. By comparison, Tarkowski was in and out of Oldham's League 1 team at 19. He was 21 when he moved to Brentford after just over a year as a first team regular. This doesn't mean Dunne will make it - even though he's clearly got fabulous reviews at Barrow, the attrition rate is very high.

But I'd say he's an odd one to pick out to support an argument that youth development is a waste of time.

[Lowbankclaret]

Yeah, invest the money in better scouts instead. Don't see what is wrong with that. Forget about developing Dunne and buy him for a few mill if he starts to do well in a respectable league. Less risk and more gained. The real money is to be made that way than it is hoping we get a star once every few years.

So if every club adopts that approach, if only the top 6 bother with academies. What happens then????

[boatshed bill]

I've said this before.
I believe all clubs have a duty to try to develop young players.
It creates employment and is good for the local community and economy, among other good reasons to run a youth system

[superdimitri]

So if every club adopts that approach, if only the top 6 bother with academies. What happens then????

We close in on them by not wasting money on youth development.

I've said this before.
I believe all clubs have a duty to try to develop young players.
It creates employment and is good for the local community and economy, among other good reasons to run a youth system

We're not a charity, do you pay your money to watch the team or get in for free?

If they want teams to develop youngsters they should give less prize money to the big teams and offer greater rewards than they do to youth development. Have you seen the wages countries like Spain pay coaches compared to here in the England?

Just like with cheating and referee decisions, no point playing against it when you can play with it, until the FA step up funding of youth development and clubs like us can actually benefit from it, sod em.

[boatshed bill]

We close in on them by not wasting money on youth development.


We're not a charity, do you pay your money to watch the team or get in for free?

If they want teams to develop youngsters they should give less prize money to the big teams and offer greater rewards than they do to youth development. Have you seen the wages countries like Spain pay coaches compared to here in the England?

Just like with cheating and referee decisions, no point playing against it when you can play with it, until the FA step up funding of youth development and clubs like us can actually benefit from it, sod em.

If you are not prepared to look for the benefits then you will not see them.

[superdimitri]

If you are not prepared to look for the benefits then you will not see them.

I am prepared to look at every benefit, if there was one. If you can think of a benefit by developing our own youngsters compared to buying and reselling like we did with Austin, Ings, Keane, Gray etc let me know.

As far as I can see the £££s from Rodriguez from 5 seasons ago doesn't really outweigh what we received from players we bought young to get into the first team and play right off the bat.

[boatshed bill]

I am prepared to look at every benefit, if there was one. If you can think of a benefit by developing our own youngsters compared to buying and reselling like we did with Austin, Ings, Keane, Gray etc let me know.

As far as I can see the £££s from Rodriguez from 5 seasons ago doesn't really outweigh what we received from players we bought young to get into the first team and play right off the bat.

I understand where you are coming from, but choose to remain optimistic and support the ethic behind youth development.

[TVC15]

I am prepared to look at every benefit, if there was one. If you can think of a benefit by developing our own youngsters compared to buying and reselling like we did with Austin, Ings, Keane, Gray etc let me know.

As far as I can see the £££s from Rodriguez from 5 seasons ago doesn't really outweigh what we received from players we bought young to get into the first team and play right off the bat.

It's a good job the club is not so blinkered to have only one strategy then isn't it ?
It's also a bigger picture than solely how much we can make on selling players. A football club is more than just a first team.

[Lowbankclaret]

I am prepared to look at every benefit, if there was one. If you can think of a benefit by developing our own youngsters compared to buying and reselling like we did with Austin, Ings, Keane, Gray etc let me know.

As far as I can see the £££s from Rodriguez from 5 seasons ago doesn't really outweigh what we received from players we bought young to get into the first team and play right off the bat.

So there would be no Austin’s, Grays or Rod’ if only the top clubs had youth systems.

Not sure your argument stacks up my friend

[piston broke]

So there would be no Austin’s, Grays or Rod’ if only the top clubs had youth systems.

Not sure your argument stacks up my friend

Except Austin and Gray didn't come through Academies. Austin and Gray worked their way up from Non-League.

[Lowbankclaret]

Except Austin and Gray didn't come through Academies. Austin and Gray worked their way up from Non-League.

And where do the majority of non league players come from, oh yes academies

Lots of non league clubs would close without acadamies players, or the standard would be so poor the gems would just get lost in the system.

[randomclaret2]

Dunne made his League Debut today . Came on in 2nd half for Accy

[superdimitri]

And where do the majority of non league players come from, oh yes academies

Lots of non league clubs would close without acadamies players, or the standard would be so poor the gems would just get lost in the system.

Yeah, so pick them up when we know they will be good.

[Lowbankclaret]

Yeah, so pick them up when we know they will be good.

So I have worked for BFC trying to find the next Jay.

Have you???

It’s not that ******* easy.

[Lancasterclaret]

Whoa guys, he's making a counter argument to the "Youth team is the only way to go" mantra.

You might disagree with him, but his argument is being taken by more than one club, for precisely the reasons he's mentioned.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Except Austin and Gray didn't come through Academies. Austin and Gray worked their way up from Non-League.

As Jimmy Dunne is now at a younger age and higher level

[Dark Cloud]

It's certainly an interesting debate/argument. Huddersfield (for example) have taken one view whilst Burnley have taken totally another. Only time will tell who has got it right.

[superdimitri]

So I have worked for BFC trying to find the next Jay.

Have you???

It’s not that ******* easy.

Precisely my argument. Its much easier to find an Austin or a Gray.

[Lowbankclaret]

Precisely my argument. Its much easier to find an Austin or a Gray.

I am not that sure it is.

It was also really difficult for the club.

I remember one year, that club had signed all the under 18 places and then lads turned up who had been released from the Manchester clubs. They were good players better than what were signed but they had to turn them away.

I think there needs to be a balance, we need to bring on players, hopefully a couple come through. Then you also buy in the likes of Austin.

If all the clubs stoped having academies then the whole standard of football down the leagues would get worse, imo.