Jeff Hendrick

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:07 am

Hendrick did what he's been doing a lot recently: fade badly after 55 minutes or so.

That said, I thought he was good for that first 55 minutes and most of our good play involved him.

He's not helped by having Barnes in front of him however, as he's nothing to play a ball through to

3putt · Post by **3putt** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:48 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Er, yes that is what fans do.

You'll forgive me though for thinking that some seem to think that they might know a bit more than our best manager in our lifetime though!
To me, Hendrick is having good bits and bad bits in games, but replacing him with a more attacking player would mean (hopefully!) more chances at one end, but also less defensive solidity at the other because of what he does to help out when we are not in possession.

Thats the dilemma that our manager has, and as we are so hard to score against, I think he's got it about right.

With a bit of better defending in the 90th minutes and a fair referee, we'd be on 39 points so I don't think we are doing too much wrong!

You are absolutely right in that we could and probably should be on 39 point which is unbelievable, 34 points and 7th place is equally incredible. As you say we can't being doing that much wrong.

The one thing I would say is that we clearly don't score enough goals or create enough chances. That makes us vulnerable to having points snatched off us late in the game. This is the problem with Hendrick in my opinion, he is nowhere good enough in an attacking no.10 role. Do we need his defensive attributes with our best back 5 playing and Defour in front of them? I'm not sure. But I suspect with a really good attacking no.10 replacing Hendrick we would do even better.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:29 am

I'm far from Hendrick's biggest fan but when talking to other fans yesterday he was getting pelters. It's alright Dyche stubbornly picking him but the last thing anyone wants is for him to become a boo boy.

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:40 am

I like Hendrick. As others have said he’s probably the best “all round” midfielder we have. The can tackle, he’s pretty quick, got good first touch & can create chances with with a pass or cross.

But he’s a midfielder, not a number 10. I just don’t think he “knows” where to run to support the front man we choose to play with

taio · Post by **taio** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:54 am

wilks_bfc wrote:I like Hendrick. As others have said he’s probably the best “all round” midfielder we have. The can tackle, he’s pretty quick, got good first touch & can create chances with with a pass or cross.

But he’s a midfielder, not a number 10. I just don’t think he “knows” where to run to support the front man we choose to play with

Not as good as Defour or Cork up to now - simple as that otherwise he'd be playing instead of one of those.

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:11 pm

taio wrote:Not as good as Defour or Cork up to now - simple as that otherwise he'd be playing instead of one of those.

Agree and never said he was. I wouldn’t be breaking up that partnership at the moment

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:21 pm

Inchy wrote:I think Jeff is doing a good job in a difficult position. He presses well and puts in a lot of defensive work. However, when the ball is at his feet I don't see enough. He doesn't make many passes which create chances, although that could be because he only has Barnes ahead of him.

I just think we could do better and expect that he wont be starting in that position next season.

As you say though, he currently only has Barnes (or whichever striker we play) in front of him. A lot of the time, he's picking the ball up with no forward pass on.

Therefore, isn't the fair thing to do to make allowances at the minute and wait and see how he gets on if and when we're able to get more pace into the team in wide areas?

This would help Hendrick in three ways - firstly, it should give him an extra option for a forward pass when he gets the ball in midfield; secondly, it should provide an extra threat to draw defenders away from him (he's getting crowded out a fair bit); and thirdly, it should mean that our defenders and midfielders have another potential out ball when we're under the cosh - as it stands, the alternative to going long to barnes is going semi-long to hendrick, in the centre of the park with his back to goal, and no-one would argue this is his strength.

I'm pretty sure this is how Dyche sees the team evolving - its consistent with the interest in Lennon back in the summer. The point about Hendrick fading in the second half is a valid one, but in both the last two games JBG has also faded in the second half and that makes me wonder if it isn't in large part because others have faded in the second half and so we're getting less ball into both Hendrick and JBG (and indeed Arfield), and that which we are providing is of a lower quality.

Finally, its very easy for fans to argue for bringing in more attacking players and sacrificing the solidity Hendrick offers. Its something I'm sure we'd all like to see. But I'm not sure any "truer" "number 10" would thrive in our system, and I suspect we'd be a lot poorer defensively without being correspondingly better in attack. So we'd be a poorer unit overall. We're moving gradually towards more of a 4-3-3- set up, but that takes time.

taio · Post by **taio** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:54 pm

claretspice wrote:As you say though, he currently only has Barnes (or whichever striker we play) in front of him. A lot of the time, he's picking the ball up with no forward pass on.

Therefore, isn't the fair thing to do to make allowances at the minute and wait and see how he gets on if and when we're able to get more pace into the team in wide areas?

This would help Hendrick in three ways - firstly, it should give him an extra option for a forward pass when he gets the ball in midfield; secondly, it should provide an extra threat to draw defenders away from him (he's getting crowded out a fair bit); and thirdly, it should mean that our defenders and midfielders have another potential out ball when we're under the cosh - as it stands, the alternative to going long to barnes is going semi-long to hendrick, in the centre of the park with his back to goal, and no-one would argue this is his strength.

I'm pretty sure this is how Dyche sees the team evolving - its consistent with the interest in Lennon back in the summer. The point about Hendrick fading in the second half is a valid one, but in both the last two games JBG has also faded in the second half and that makes me wonder if it isn't in large part because others have faded in the second half and so we're getting less ball into both Hendrick and JBG (and indeed Arfield), and that which we are providing is of a lower quality.

Finally, its very easy for fans to argue for bringing in more attacking players and sacrificing the solidity Hendrick offers. Its something I'm sure we'd all like to see. But I'm not sure any "truer" "number 10" would thrive in our system, and I suspect we'd be a lot poorer defensively without being correspondingly better in attack. So we'd be a poorer unit overall. We're moving gradually towards more of a 4-3-3- set up, but that takes time.

Considering the above, do you still feel that Hendrick isn't playing the position of AMC?

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:03 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:I like Hendrick. As others have said he’s probably the best “all round” midfielder we have. The can tackle, he’s pretty quick, got good first touch & can create chances with with a pass or cross.

But he’s a midfielder, not a number 10. I just don’t think he “knows” where to run to support the front man we choose to play with

Completely agree, he's a really good box to box midfield worker with added quality on the ball. He has really neat feet and a nice balance but he just isn't a number 10, never in a million years and him being played in a number 10 role is making him look a pretty bad footballer which isn't the case at all. He's a ball carrier not a striker.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:17 pm

taio wrote:Considering the above, do you still feel that Hendrick isn't playing the position of AMC?

Well, he's playing as the most advanced of our 3 central midfielders, for sure. But as you know, I don't particularly think these generic labels - "AMC", "number 10" are particularly helpful in defining the role he is playing. I've said before that I think part of the problem with Hendrick is people want him to play like a classic playmaker, when that's not the role being asked of him at all - his is more like the role Gerrard used to play for Liverpool sometimes in Europe, with two holding players behind him.

That's a very different role to the one that, say, Totti used to perform for Roma. The heat map might show their average field position is similar, but that would badly reflect the amount of additional roving and running Gerrard used to do and it would even worse reflect the actual functions Gerrard performed in that role.

So use whatever badge you like, but I maintain Hendrick is being asked to do a very particular job based on the particular system Dyche has developed this season.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:43 pm

Speaking of heatmaps, here's yesterday's.

Shows we had virtually nothing around their penalty box. That has to improve.

: Lpoolheatmap.png (230.37 KiB) Viewed 3753 times

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:50 pm

The whoscored stats also show that Hendrick's pass completion rate was 88%

Compare to the rest of the team:

Pope 43%
Bardsley 67%
Tarkowski 67%
Mee 80%
Taylor 59%
JBG 79%
Defour 84%
Cork 81%
Arfield 79%
Barnes 55%

superdimitri · Post by **superdimitri** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:44 am

Please for the love of god can we sign a decent AMC if we are going to play this way.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:39 pm

Hes just broke into the box then completely run out of ideas and gave up ffs. Not sure where hes playing today

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:33 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Hes just broke into the box then completely run out of ideas and gave up ffs. Not sure where hes playing today

Neither does he, but it's running into months now since his last good game.
But we seem to be persisting with him in behind and playing others out of position to accompany him.

Makes you wonder whether the nil is more important to us than him offering an attacking contribution, as he offers zero in the final 3rd.

Murger · Post by **Murger** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:37 pm

1 of Dyches untouchables.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:38 pm

MACCA wrote:Neither does he, but it's running into months now since his last good game.
But we seem to be persisting with him in behind and playing others out of position to accompany him.

Makes you wonder whether the nil is more important to us than him offering an attacking contribution, as he offers zero in the final 3rd.

Its a week - he had a good game at City.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:44 pm

claretspice wrote:Its a week - he had a good game at City.

I like him, and have agreed with your assessments before, but I cannot support your claims of him being on form in any of the recent games. He's offered nothing of note and made no contributions to the team in the role he's been asked to play.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:48 pm

MACCA wrote:I like him, and have agreed with your assessments before, but I cannot support your claims of him being on form in any of the recent games. He's offered nothing of note and made no contributions to the team in the role he's been asked to play.

He did absolutely fine last week. He made a significant contribution. The idea he had made no contribution to the team last week is plain wrong. Sorry, but it is.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:49 pm

I am sure Spice is his agent

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:51 pm

I'm just trying to give the lad a fair hearing. He's had some good games, some poor games, some indifferent games and he's certainly not been one of our better players, but he's done an awful lot better than he's being given credit for and last Saturday is a case in point.

By and large, when Burnley play half decently, Hendrick does well. He struggles to get into the game a bit when we are struggling to get good possession. Not there today, but it sounds like a day when we struggled to get good possession of the ball and so Hendrick struggles to be a factor in games. Partly his fault, more the teams fault.

bfc-sparta · Post by **bfc-sparta** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:53 pm

Time to drop hendrick now please, 5 games now that he's look lost

whiffa · Post by **whiffa** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:56 pm

Hendrick and Bardsley out for the next game - I don't care who for, we need a change.

KefkaClaret · Post by **KefkaClaret** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:58 pm

Recent weeks I'd excuse Hendrick for the poor performance due to the position. Today though was a man with absolutely no confidence and needs a break because it will only harm the team if he continues to play.

Iloveyoubrady · Post by **Iloveyoubrady** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:59 pm

N’Koudou left and arfield in Hendricks position for now until we buy a proper cam.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:00 pm

KefkaClaret wrote:Recent weeks I'd excuse Hendrick for the poor performance due to the position. Today though was a man with absolutely no confidence and needs a break because it will only harm the team if he continues to play.

Again, he had plenty of confidence last week, so I'd be astounded if its all drained away in a week. Can we not keep the analysis simple and say he struggled today in what sounds to have been a really poor team performance in the first hour from back to front?

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:00 pm

KefkaClaret wrote:Recent weeks I'd excuse Hendrick for the poor performance due to the position. Today though was a man with absolutely no confidence and needs a break because it will only harm the team if he continues to play.

Again, he had plenty of confidence last week, so I'd be astounded if its all drained away in a week. Can we not keep the analysis simple and say he struggled today in what sounds to have been a really poor team performance in the first hour from back to front?

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:02 pm

If you're playing the number 10 role, your job is to create, link up, provide, score etc.

Hendrick has looked lost and out of ideas whilst in the final 3rd. Whether that's his fault or not, or the manager for picking him to play there, but he needs to show more commitment and desire whilst in the pitch. I genuinely don't know what he contributed today that I couldn't have, and that's worrying

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:04 pm

whiffa wrote:Hendrick and Bardsley out for the next game - I don't care who for, we need a change.

Fully agree , but I've been saying this for the last 4 games.

Reecey1987 · Post by **Reecey1987** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:05 pm

Dyche keeps playing jeff there

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:05 pm

Do we blame Hendrick for playing out of position or the manager for continuing to play him there? I really like Hendrick, he's alot to offer and is our best ball carrier but why he's playing that role I have no idea.

Reecey1987 · Post by **Reecey1987** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:08 pm

KRBFC wrote:Do we blame Hendrick for playing out of position or the manager for continuing to play him there? I really like Hendrick, he's alot to offer and is our best ball carrier but why he's playing that role I have no idea.

Most probably because he wants to keep defour and cork in midfield and thats the only place were he can fit him in

whiffa · Post by **whiffa** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:09 pm

MACCA wrote:Fully agree , but I've been saying this for the last 4 games.

I've been saying it for a while too, this isn't a snap decision.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:13 pm

MACCA wrote:If you're playing the number 10 role, your job is to create, link up, provide, score etc.

Hendrick has looked lost and out of ideas whilst in the final 3rd. Whether that's his fault or not, or the manager for picking him to play there, but he needs to show more commitment and desire whilst in the pitch. I genuinely don't know what he contributed today that I couldn't have, and that's worrying

You're defining the role you think he should be playing. I don't think that's the role the manager wants him to play at all. I think the manager wants him to be a third central midfielder, giving Defour in particular freedom to get around the park whilst keeping the basic midfield shape, leading our pressing game, and playing as much of the game as possible. His job isn't necessarily to take up positions to provide the ultimate assist, but to play passes that get us moving earlier in the move, and I think he's doing that fine.

As I said, not perfect, and certainly when we're struggling to control the game we revert to our 2 banks of four and ask him to operate just ahead which isn't his strength, so in a game when we never get a toe-hold we'll never see the best of him. But he was good against City, and more than satisfactory against both City and Huddersfield, and from what I understand (wasn't there) good at United too.

wilks_bfc · Post by **wilks_bfc** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:14 pm

I think we’ve all be saying it

Personally I think Barnes is more suited in that number 10 role than Jeff. He can hold the ball, knows where Vokes/Wood will be making moves to in front and get forward to support.

Hopefully we’ll see GK out wide next week in Ashley’s place & Ashley replace Hendrick

claretman1 · Post by **claretman1** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:15 pm

Been the invisible man for too long.

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:20 pm

claretspice wrote:You're defining the role you think he should be playing. I don't think that's the role the manager wants him to play at all. I think the manager wants him to be a third central midfielder, giving Defour in particular freedom to get around the park whilst keeping the basic midfield shape, leading our pressing game, and playing as much of the game as possible. His job isn't necessarily to take up positions to provide the ultimate assist, but to play passes that get us moving earlier in the move, and I think he's doing that fine.

As I said, not perfect, and certainly when we're struggling to control the game we revert to our 2 banks of four and ask him to operate just ahead which isn't his strength, so in a game when we never get a toe-hold we'll never see the best of him. But he was good against City, and more than satisfactory against both City and Huddersfield, and from what I understand (wasn't there) good at United too.

Your analysis is usually excellent but in my opinion you are way off the mark here. Hendrick is NOT playing as a 3rd central midfielder...most definitely `in the hole` behind the striker.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:23 pm

HiroshimaClaret wrote:Your analysis is usually excellent but in my opinion you are way off the mark here. Hendrick is NOT playing as a 3rd central midfielder...most definitely `in the hole` behind the striker.

Spice is the only one who sees that.

And tbh if he IS playing CM he is playing even bloody worse!!!

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:23 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Spice is the only one who sees that.

And tbh if he IS playing CM he is playing even bloody worse!!!

I don't think I am the only one, I just think I'm more vocal about it.

My main point is that this desire to pigeon hole players into pre defined roles is a bit Championship Manager. I strongly suspect that if you told Sean DycheDyche he was playing Jeff Hendrick as a number 10 he'd laugh and tell you hes a natural midfielder playing a slightly more advanced role doing a number of jobs Dyche has allocated to him, and thst he doesn't really use badges like "number 10".

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:46 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:I am sure Spice is his agent

is Spice related to Hendrick?

Pearcey · Post by **Pearcey** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:49 pm

I’m not one for slating our players but I have to agree that Hendrick isn’t good enough to play in this position. He is nowhere near to being a cultured footballer. He needs a rest I think.

KlyBfc · Post by **KlyBfc** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:15 pm

I wasn’t there today nor did I watch any stream so I can’t comment on today’s performance, but a bit like spice I’m very much in the camp that Hendrick does an awful lot of good for the team that people don’t often acknowledge. I also think Jeff gets grief (be it on here or at games) about things other players get away with doing.

At the end of the day Hendrick in this role has been successful as it has seen us reach seventh in the premier league and pick up an amount of points, away from home, in particular, we could only dream about in August (I read somewhere the ridiculous statement that replacing him is 23 games too late). He has played his part in that success of that I have no doubt.

I do however believe we need an alternative to Jeff when he doesn’t play well or when we need to force a game and so I agree we need to bring a player in.

I also do not see how anyone looks at Barnes performances through his time at Burnley and can see a player that can do the role as the spearhead of our central midfield in the premier league.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:29 pm

Here's is stats for the premier league.
https://www.premierleague.com/players/8 ... rick/stats" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
9 shots on target in 52 games. 2 assists and another big chance created?

He's not good enough I'm afraid. We have give him a fair crack of the whip.

IAmAClaret · Post by **IAmAClaret** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:41 pm

Hendrick is a good player, both technically and physcially. He simply hasn't adapted to the role he is being asked to play, yet he can still be a massive part of this team.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:49 pm

I haven't seen or heard anybody else - not one other person - suggest it's wrong to say that Hendrick is playing in the space between Defour/Cork and the striker, whether that's on here or speaking to many other Burnley supporters.

3putt · Post by **3putt** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:03 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Here's is stats for the premier league.
https://www.premierleague.com/players/8 ... rick/stats" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
9 shots on target in 52 games. 2 assists and another big chance created?

He's not good enough I'm afraid. We have give him a fair crack of the whip.

He's had more than a fair crack of the whip in my opinion.

A real weak link of the team and has been for most of the season.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:05 pm

On absolutely every level in this division we shouldn't be 7th, but we are.

Thats because of the team spirit and organisation, which Hendrick is a part of.

Its injuries that are the reason we've not won for six, not Jeff Hendrick

3putt · Post by **3putt** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:09 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:On absolutely every level in this division we shouldn't be 7th, but we are.

Thats because of the team spirit and organisation, which Hendrick is a part of.

Its injuries that are the reason we've not won for six, not Jeff Hendrick

Nothing to do with injuries at all. Very unlucky to concede in extra time against Man U and Liverpool and should of beaten Huddersfield and probably would of done if we had the cert penalty awarded.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:34 pm

This is also true, but injuries have played a part.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:42 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:On absolutely every level in this division we shouldn't be 7th, but we are.

Thats because of the team spirit and organisation, which Hendrick is a part of.

Its injuries that are the reason we've not won for six, not Jeff Hendrick

Man City are romping the title but their fans will still want to improve their team. Some will think Delph isn't good enough for left back or they still need a Centre half.

If you stand still you go backwards.