Sam Vokes

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:32 am

We all like him and he always gives 100% but seems to be a bit off form this season.

Is he genuinely out of his depth (too slow) in the top half of the PL?
Does he need a partner and a 4-4-2 lineup to perform at his best?
Is he training in the right way (too much upper body strength and not enough short sprints)?

We have signed two good wingers who SHOULD supply better quality crosses but unless we recruit a real quality Danny Ings like No. 10 I just can't see him with a long term future at the club.

Over to you Sam to prove me completely wrong !

MarkGreen · Post by **MarkGreen** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:34 am

I'd say he's already within the parameters of being a 'long term' player!

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:36 am

Mala591 wrote:Is he training in the right way?

I would have thought, after over five years of Dyche, that is something that would not be questioned.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:40 am

Probably not playing enough.
At present he's mainly a sub and most players can appear out of sorts or slow if they're only getting half an hour here and there.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:42 am

ClaretTony wrote:I would have thought, after over five years of Dyche, that is something that would not be questioned.

Watching the speed and movement of the Leicester forwards I think that SD might just have something left to learn.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:45 am

Dyche has something to learn?

For starters I doubt you'd see a Dyche team virtually down tools to get a manager fired, twice.

Leicester have a more mobile front line, you can't necessarily train that into someone who isn't that mobile.

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:49 am

Sidney1st wrote:Dyche has something to learn?

Yes plenty, and he'll say that himself.

However getting Vokes to run around like Vardy isn't something he can learn to do.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:53 am

He relies on a run of games like most strikers, I'm surprised he's behind Barnes in the pecking order and he's probably shocked by it too. It must be a real confidence blow sat on the bench watching Barnes start games.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:59 am

Not enough game time and with how he finished last season it's a big mistake.

KateR · Post by **KateR** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:09 pm

I like Sam a lot and would prefer him to start rather than Ash and reverse there roles but SD has other ideas but agree with other comments, he's a long term Claret who needs a run of starts.

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:12 pm

Sams lack of mobility is his biggest drawback at this level

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:13 pm

No one else at Stamford Bridge for first game of season? Sam got 2 goals and we won 2-3.

No one else at St Mary's at the start of Nov? Sam scored a great goal and we won 0-1.

UTC

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:15 pm

We are playing a different system this season, very successfully, but it isn't a system suited to Sam.
He still has a vital role to play, and if the system morphs he could get a lot more game time in the future.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:44 pm

Possibly have to wait and see with regard to better supply off the new guys but with the best will in the world, and I wish he would prove me wrong I really do, I don't think he is PL material. At Championship level he shines but in the PL I don't think so. Having said that I'm as mystified as anyone as to why he's behind Barnes. We all know Ashley's absolute commitment to the cause but you can only get so far in the PL with bluster, muscle and bullying defenders. Barnes lacks subtlety, which is fine sometimes, particularly if you're chasing a game, but on a 'day to day' basis his skill/technical ability just don't seem good enough. All is good just now but if we don't get Wood back soon and/or another striker in this window I fear a slip out of the top 10 is on the cards, and although relegation is all but impossible finishing bottom half after the start we had would be a major disappointment.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:49 pm

houseboy wrote: I fear a slip out of the top 10 is on the cards, and although relegation is all but impossible finishing bottom half after the start we had would be a major disappointment.

A major disappointment, and the first time a team would have done it since the PL began. There was a stat after the Stoke game i think, which said 80% chance of a top 7 finish based on previous seasons, and no team had ever failed to finish top half with the same points tally which we had, in any premier league season gone by.

Walesfan1978 · Post by **Walesfan1978** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:55 pm

Having watched Vokes for over 10 years now (since he came into the Welsh u21 team) I would say that he's a very good player who you just have to accept will always look a little limited at the very highest level.

He'll always be a hero in Wales because his goal against Belgium was truly one of the greatest moments in Welsh football history but one of the reasons we are not going to the World Cup is that Vokes and Hal Robson-Kanu are our first choice strikers and they only managed to score a goal each (vs Moldova) in qualifying.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:57 pm

houseboy wrote: I fear a slip out of the top 10 is on the cards, and although relegation is all but impossible finishing bottom half after the start we had would be a major disappointment.

Agreed, while survival is great, the amazing start 7th place and European football had us all dreaming. Bad transfer business, no adequate replacements for injuries has left us in a rut and in need of quality additions this window. It seems the club are happy with just survival, a bit disappointing really because with a few additions this window we'd be in great shape to rival Leicester for 7th. It's almost like we're happy to sit on the cash and survive.

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:57 pm

I think youre spot on there WF to be honest

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:01 pm

Regarding Leicester, I don't see Ulloa and Slimani ripping defences apart with sizzling speed.
Vardy and Mahrez are superb and having both of them together was a real stroke of fortune.

boiledclaret · Post by **boiledclaret** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:14 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Probably not playing enough.
At present he's mainly a sub and most players can appear out of sorts or slow if they're only getting half an hour here and there.

Agree, He gets the same criticism as Barnes. Big lads tend to resemble lumps who are slightly off the pace unless they get playing time, preferably starting matches.

You can only start with 11. II'd still regard him as an important player for us.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:16 pm

Last season, he scored 10 league goals from 21 starts and 16 sub appearances, or a goal every 200 minutes he was on the pitch (10 from 2055). This season he has 3 league goals in 5 starts and 13 sub appearances, which again works out at roughly a goal every 200 minutes (3 from 595 minutes). So statistically, he's doing absolutely fine for us at this level and his goalscoring record bears comparison with any striker in the league outside the elite clubs and Jamie Vardy.

The problem I think we have had getting Vokes into the team is that whilst he's a good target man, he's not necessarily a great loan striker. He holds the ball well, but he's not as good as Barnes at dealing with the rough and tumble that goes with holding the ball long enough to allow a midfield 5 who aren't especially blessed with pace to get up alongside him.

He comes into his own when we are able to get men around him so that he's got an easy lay off, or even better the neat pass. There are some short memories around what a decent footballer he is - anyone who saw the way he combined with Ings will remember the way in which he can feed a fellow attacker who is willing to break the line and get beyond him. Vokes is no number 10 but he's at his best dropping off the centre back to meet the ball and then link with someone coming on the burst, with the pace to exploit the space Vokes' movement has helped create.

Lennon is a winger rather than a striker like Ings, but I can easily imagine them linking in a very similar way (we've seen glimpses of it with Brady and JBG at times, but neither have the pace to really expose the space Vokes can create). So Lennon could be the man to really reignite Vokes' season - lets hope so because he's too good a player to be on the margins.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:18 pm

Sam came on as substitute at Southampton, so he can have an impact as sub.

I agree he needs games to be at his best but the team is not really set up to use him. He is an outdated mode of forward and Dyche is trying to move us on in our style of play. Mobility is now the key requirement.

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:23 pm

I think his lack of starts is the biggest drawback. I personally think Wood brings more to the team but he has been absent since the Spurs game and I would have started Sam in a few of the games since.

The Boss chose to go with Ash and with little to show points wise it would be of concern were it not for some very good performances.

We have had a run of fixtures over December and January that has yielded 2 points. A decent referee would have given a penalty at Huddersfield and an opportunity for 2 more points. Palace was always going to be difficult as will Newcastle. We were guilty of poor defending against Liverpool and matched Man Utd all the way, it's hardly relegation form in reality.

Man City at home then that is all the big boys out of the way.

I've said before 34 points after 34 games would have been brilliant but there are some pessimists who perhaps think our season is over after 24 games.

Relax, there is more to come from this team of ours and Sam will contribute with goals given the opportunity.

UTC

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:25 pm

houseboy wrote: I fear a slip out of the top 10 is on the cards, and although relegation is all but impossible finishing bottom half after the start we had would be a major disappointment.

it really wouldn't be.

finishing higher than last year would still make a successful season.

anyway, fear not, we'll finish top 10, no worries.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:33 pm

Lack of mobility and lack of aggression are my issues with him but I agree we are not currently playing a system that suits his strenghths. Has looked out of sorts for Wales lately too.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:41 pm

Hipper wrote:Sam came on as substitute at Southampton, so he can have an impact as sub.

I agree he needs games to be at his best but the team is not really set up to use him. He is an outdated mode of forward and Dyche is trying to move us on in our style of play. Mobility is now the key requirement.

That's nonsense. He's not an outdated type of forward at all. He's a fairly modern type of target man with good feet and a good game on the deck. There are plenty of fairly similar types of forward playing in the Premier League and his goalscoring record stacks up well.

The key isn't that every player in the team is mobile, its that you've got the right mix of players, including players like Vokes who offer a target but also players with pace. Vokes has suffered because we've not had quite enough of that pacey type to offset his relative lack of pace, or take advantage of the good stuff he does. That's why as we evolve there is a decent chance Vokes will become more important to us, not less.

Claret82 · Post by **Claret82** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:42 pm

KRBFC wrote:Agreed, while survival is great, the amazing start 7th place and European football had us all dreaming. Bad transfer business, no adequate replacements for injuries has left us in a rut and in need of quality additions this window. It seems the club are happy with just survival, a bit disappointing really because with a few additions this window we'd be in great shape to rival Leicester for 7th. It's almost like we're happy to sit on the cash and survive.

If you're already naffed off with survival, you have a lot of painful seasons to come.

You are similar to Arsenal fans attitude to success, never happy, never grateful,

The worse thing that could happen to you is winning the title, all down hill from there

I feel sorry for you.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:19 pm

Claret82 wrote:If you're already naffed off with survival, you have a lot of painful seasons to come.

You are similar to Arsenal fans attitude to success, never happy, never grateful,

The worse thing that could happen to you is winning the title, all down hill from there

I feel sorry for you.

''Agreed, while survival is great''

Sounds like I'm really naffed off and upset.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:44 pm

Sam started the season well and probably felt his place was fairly secure. Suddenly however we went out and got Wood who leapfrogged him in SD's plans and whilst Sam was still digesting that, Wood got injured and he found Barnes was being preferred. I agree that recently when he is on the field his body language and demeanour these days aren't what it was, but he may be (justifiably?) slightly piqued. I also agree that Sam is probably an unfortunate victim of the 4-5-1 approach this season and to be his most effective he needs a good "No 10". Out of the 3 main strikers SD clearly believes he's the least capable "lone" striker which is probably fair tbh.

DuckworthsEA · Post by **DuckworthsEA** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:57 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:Not enough game time and with how he finished last season it's a big mistake.

Agreed. Add to that his 2 goals at Chelsea and that beauty of a header against Southampton.

He needs a run in the team for me, I think he better suited to our style of play than Barnes. That might upset some people but I think he is a better player and scored more goals when selected.

BleedingClaret · Post by **BleedingClaret** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:06 pm

I think he's still our best forward in a 442 but that's not our chosen system.
Personally I don't think Hendrick is now doing enough and I'd revert to 442 with Vokes one of the 2.
IMO, but what do I know...
In Dyche WE Trust.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:07 pm

Hendrick was one of the best players on the park against Man Utd.

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:14 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Hendrick was one of the best players on the park against Man Utd.

10th best according to player ratings, and about 8th best according to the MOTM vote...

We'll be generous, and give him 9th best overall.

Also let's not forget Sam got married over the summer, these sorts of crazy decisions and subsequent traumas take time to get used to.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:17 pm

If you read the player ratings from people who actually know about football, Hendrick was highly rated.

There were just a couple of massive weirdos who rated him suspiciously low, suggesting an agenda maybe.

Who would that be Macca?

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:22 pm

Hendrick - 8 - Great to see him play well today. Clever passes and tidy play
Hendrick 7 (wanted to give 12 to balance out the idiotic 4 from MACCA)
Hendrick - 7 far better playing further back with the play in front of him, second half especially he was very good today
'Best game in weeks'
Anyone giving Hendrick a 4 is smacked off their tits to be perfectly honest, as he did one bad pass all afternoon.
Hendrick - 7 - so much better than the last few games
Totally clueless to give him a 4. Simple as that.
Hendrick 7 (would have been 8 but for a couple of errant passes in second half, great movement picking up pockets of space, gave us options)
Hendrick - 8 - Greater control behind him in midfield gave him more quality ball to get into the game, and he took his opportunity with a really strong first half performance full of positive running, good prompting but also some really good covering to allow Cork and Defour to go forwards. We saw plenty of him in the second half too, particularly surging forwards, but badly messed up one counter attack which seemed to knock his confidence a little.
Hendrick 8
Hendrick 7 Jeff has come in for some stick recently but you couldn't fault him today.
Hendrick 7 good game from him. The groan which went up when he made one misplaced pass was pathetic from the crowd. He had 2nd best pass completion rate behind Cork.

Conroy92 · Post by **Conroy92** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:26 pm

Like others have said, gametime and confidence is what our Sam needs. Recently he's started to look like the player that first joined us, a player low on confidence and lacking in gametime maybe also feeling a little unwanted with the amount of loan spells. He embraced the chance here, found a home and when he got playing he never really looked back.

However, unless we can guarantee Vokes more game time, letting him go could suit both partys. I really like Sam but without the minutes his form will not improve. Could be a good time to look for a new, younger option, Dembele anyone

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:29 pm

DuckworthsEA wrote:Agreed. Add to that his 2 goals at Chelsea and that beauty of a header against Southampton.

He needs a run in the team for me, I think he better suited to our style of play than Barnes. That might upset some people but I think he is a better player and scored more goals when selected.

Why would a rational opinion upset some people?

You will find that what upsets people is the few weirdo sandal wearers we have on here, who have hate in their hearts for Barnes.

Taffy on the wing · Post by **Taffy on the wing** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:43 pm

The moaners and whiners are out in full force......Too bad! This fantastic team deserves better.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:21 pm

we've just brought in two speedy wingers who should dramatically increase the supply to all of our forwards, too soon to write Sam off given his lack of supply

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:29 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:If you read the player ratings from people who actually know about football, Hendrick was highly rated.

There were just a couple of massive weirdos who rated him suspiciously low, suggesting an agenda maybe.

Who would that be Macca?

Out of interest:

Who do you rate as knowing about football?

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:31 pm

boatshed bill wrote:Out of interest:

Who do you rate as knowing about football?

Philip Neville?

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:52 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:If you read the player ratings from people who actually know about football, Hendrick was highly rated.

There were just a couple of massive weirdos who rated him suspiciously low, suggesting an agenda maybe.

Who would that be Macca?

MOTM vote you only get 1 vote each.
Shows, that a lot of people thought there were 8 players who preformed better, but obviously those maybe weirdos or know nothing about football.

Also is this table is down to people who have an agenda? when you play every game, and in a creative/attacking role and have scored 2 winning goals to your name and you're behing 1 player who's played 40 minutes for us, it kind of sums up your contribution...

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:54 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Hendrick - 8 - Great to see him play well today. Clever passes and tidy play
Hendrick 7 (wanted to give 12 to balance out the idiotic 4 from MACCA)
Hendrick - 7 far better playing further back with the play in front of him, second half especially he was very good today
'Best game in weeks'
Anyone giving Hendrick a 4 is smacked off their tits to be perfectly honest, as he did one bad pass all afternoon.
Hendrick - 7 - so much better than the last few games
Totally clueless to give him a 4. Simple as that.
Hendrick 7 (would have been 8 but for a couple of errant passes in second half, great movement picking up pockets of space, gave us options)
Hendrick - 8 - Greater control behind him in midfield gave him more quality ball to get into the game, and he took his opportunity with a really strong first half performance full of positive running, good prompting but also some really good covering to allow Cork and Defour to go forwards. We saw plenty of him in the second half too, particularly surging forwards, but badly messed up one counter attack which seemed to knock his confidence a little.
Hendrick 8
Hendrick 7 Jeff has come in for some stick recently but you couldn't fault him today.
Hendrick 7 good game from him. The groan which went up when he made one misplaced pass was pathetic from the crowd. He had 2nd best pass completion rate behind Cork.

Where are the 5's and 6's thoughts?

Look.at the table above.
Shocking for a player that has played every game. Look at some of those above him!!!

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:00 pm

Wow another couple of tables where 91% and 82% of players scored better overall with the MAJORITY of fans.
Must be a hell of a lot of people peddling an agenda on here.

Or is it just people realising Jeff 's form has been way below par recently and/or his contributions to games have been, well not as much as the rest.

See how many times he's been hooked in the last half a dozen games. I'd guess ( and it's only a guess ) it's every time!

levraiclaret · Post by **levraiclaret** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:09 pm

Paul Waine wrote:No one else at Stamford Bridge for first game of season? Sam got 2 goals and we won 2-3.

No one else at St Mary's at the start of Nov? Sam scored a great goal and we won 0-1.

UTC

Yes I was at both, but I can't help but wonder if Sam lost a couple of stones he would be a more effective player. I don't think he used his bulk to score any of those goals, he noticeably lumbers when he starts to run. If you check out early photos, Sam looks much leaner and his game would benefit from being sharper.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:48 am

Would be one if the first names on the sheet for me. Especially with wood injured.

Shown time and again he guarantees goals and assists.

Behing behind Barnes is bizarre.

Hopefully starts at newcastle. Especially given we are averaging about 0.7 goals a game and he has scored a third of our meagre total from his limited starts.

Barnes goalscoring and assist record is abysmal.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:52 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:If you read the player ratings from people who actually know about football, Hendrick was highly rated.

There were just a couple of massive weirdos who rated him suspiciously low, suggesting an agenda maybe.

Who would that be Macca?

That would be you with an agenda against Barnes

KefkaClaret · Post by **KefkaClaret** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:01 am

I often wonder how good Vokes would be if he didn’t get that injury. He just seem to lose something since it happened. He’s done well to come back from it mind.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:12 am

As daft as it sounds i dont think its as big an issue as it would be for a smaller quicker player. Hes not a player who bases his game on quick turns and twists.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:35 am

People complaining about dropping into the bottom half after the start we had need a reality check.
We go into tomorrow's match missing 7 players who if fit would be natural starters. To see how this team has competed despite that injury list, is testament to the fantastic squad we have, and how far we have come as a team.
I think we've played some fantastic football since we failed to turn up against Spurs. The fact that the points haven't come is coincidence, rather than a sign that we are slipping.
Put the violins away and grow a pair.