Here are Pep's tactics, how do you counter them?

[Stan Tastic]

Come on you keyboard managers, how do you get the better of them? I realise it's Barcelona but he's using the same tactics.

Before Barcelona played Manchester United in the Champions League final at Wembley last May, Alex Ferguson said that the way Barça pressured their opponents to win the ball back was “breathtaking”. That, he said, was Guardiola’s innovation. Ferguson admitted that United hadn’t known how to cope with it in the Champions League final in Rome in 2009. He thought it would be different at Wembley. It wasn’t. Barcelona start pressing (hunting for the ball) the instant they lose possession. That is the perfect time to press because the opposing player who has just won the ball is vulnerable. He has had to take his eyes off the game to make his tackle or interception, and he has expended energy. That means he is unsighted, and probably tired. He usually needs two or three seconds to regain his vision of the field. So Barcelona try to dispossess him before he can give the ball to a better-placed teammate. Furthermore, if the guy won the ball back in his own defence, and Barcelona can instantly win it back again, then the way to goal is often clear. This is where Lionel Messi’s genius for tackling comes in. The little man has such quick reflexes that he sometimes wins a tackle a split-second after losing one. The Barcelona player who lost the ball leads the hunt to regain it. But he never hunts alone. His teammates near the ball join him. If only one or two Barça players are pressing, it’s too easy for the opponent to pass around them.

If Barça haven’t won the ball back within five seconds of losing it, they then retreat and build a compact ten-man wall. The distance between the front man in the wall (typically Messi) and their last defender (say, Carles Puyol) is only 25 to 30 metres. It’s hard for any opponent to pass their way through such a small space. The Rome final was a perfect demonstration of Barcelona’s wall: whenever United won the ball and kept it, they faced eleven precisely positioned opponents, who stood there and said, in effect: “Try and get through this.” It’s easy for Barcelona to be compact, both when pressing and when drawing up their wall, because their players spend most of the game very near each other. Xavi and Iniesta in particular seldom stray far from the ball. Cruijff recently told the former England manager Steve McClaren, now with FC Twente in Holland: “Do you know how Barcelona win the ball back so quickly? It’s because they don’t have to run back more than 10 metres as they never pass the ball more than 10 metres.”

Once Barcelona have built their compact wall, they wait for the right moment to start pressing again. They don’t choose the moment on instinct. Rather, there are very precise prompts that tell them when to press. One is if an opponent controls the ball badly. If the ball bounces off his foot, he will need to look downwards to locate it, and at that moment he loses his overview of the pitch. That’s when the nearest Barcelona players start hounding him. There’s another set prompt for Barça to press: when the opposing player on the ball turns back towards his own goal. When he does that, he narrows his options: he can no longer pass forward, unless Barcelona give him time to turn around again. Barcelona don’t give him time. Their players instantly hound the man, forcing him to pass back, and so they gain territory.

If an opposing player gets the ball anywhere near Barcelona’s penalty area, then Barça go Italian. They apply what they call the “3-1 rule”: one of Barcelona’s four defenders will advance to tackle the man with the ball, and the other three defenders will assemble in a ring about two or three metres behind the tackler. That provides a double layer of protection. Guardiola picked this rule up in Italy. It’s such a simple yet effective idea that you wonder why all top teams don’t use it.

When Barcelona win the ball, they do something unusual. Most leading teams treat the moment the ball changes hands – “turnover”, as it’s called in basketball – as decisive. At that moment, the opponents are usually out of position, and so if you can counterattack quickly, you have an excellent chance of scoring. Teams like Manchester United and Arsenal often try to score in the first three seconds after winning possession. So their player who wins the ball often tries to hit an instant splitting pass. Holland – Barcelona’s historic role models – do this too. But when a Barcelona player wins the ball, he doesn’t try for a splitting pass. The club’s attitude is: he has won the ball, that’s a wonderful achievement, and he doesn’t need to do anything else special. All he should do is slot the ball simply to the nearest teammate. Barcelona’s logic is that in winning the ball, the guy has typically forfeited his vision of the field. So he is the worst-placed player to hit a telling ball. This means that Barcelona don’t rely on the element of surprise. They take a few moments to get into formation, and then pretty much tell their opponents, “OK, here we come.” The opposition knows exactly what Barça are going to do. The difficulty is stopping it. The only exception to this rule is if the Barça player wins the ball near the opposition’s penalty area. Then he goes straight for goal.

Keeping the ball has been Barcelona’s key tactic since Cruijff’s day. Most teams don’t worry about possession. They know you can have oodles of possession and lose. But Barcelona aim to have 65 or 70 per cent of possession in a game. Last season in Spain, they averaged more than 72 per cent; so far this year, they are at about 70 per cent. The logic of possession is twofold. Firstly, while you have the ball, the other team can’t score. A team like Barcelona, short on good tacklers, needs to defend by keeping possession. As Guardiola has remarked, they are a “horrible” team without the ball. Secondly, if Barça have the ball, the other team has to chase it, and that is exhausting. When the opponents win it back, they are often so tired that they surrender it again immediately. Possession gets Barcelona into a virtuous cycle. Barça are so fanatical about possession that a defender like Gerald Pique will weave the most intricate passes inside his own penalty area rather than boot the ball away. In almost all other teams, the keeper at least is free to boot. In the England side, for instance, it’s typically Joe Hart who gives the ball away with a blind punt. This is a weakness of England’s game, but the English attitude seems to be that there is nothing to be done about it: keepers can’t pass. Barcelona think differently. Jose Mourinho, Real Madrid’s coach and Barcelona’s nemesis, has tried to exploit their devotion to passing. In the Bernabeu in December, Madrid’s forwards chased down Valdes from the game’s first kickoff, knowing he wouldn’t boot clear. The keeper miscued a pass, and Karim Benzema scored after 23 seconds. Yet Valdes kept passing, and Barcelona won 1-3. The trademark of Barcelona-raised goalkeepers – one shared only by Ajax-raised goalkeepers, like Edwin van der Sar – is that they can all play football like outfield players.

No other football team plays the Barcelona way. That’s a strength, but it’s also a weakness. It makes it very hard for Barça to integrate outsiders into the team, because the outsiders struggle to learn the system. Barcelona had a policy of buying only “Top Ten” players – men who arguably rank among the ten best footballers on earth – yet many of them have failed in the Nou Camp. Thierry Henry and Zlatan Ibrahimovic did, while even David Villa, who knew Barcelona’s game from playing it with Spain, ended up on the bench before breaking his leg. Joan Oliver, Barcelona’s previous chief executive, explained the risk of transfers by what he called the “one-second rule”. The success of a move on the pitch is decided in less than a second. If a player needs a few extra fractions of a second to work out where his teammate is going, because he doesn’t know the other guy’s game well, the move will usually break down. A new player can therefore lose you a match in under a second. Pedro isn’t a great footballer, but because he was raised in the Masia he can play Barcelona’s game better than stars from outside. The boys in the Masia spend much of their childhood playing passing games, especially Cruijff’s favorite, six against three. Football, Cruijff once said, is choreography. Nobody else thinks like that. That’s why most of the Barcelona side is homegrown. It’s more a necessity than a choice. Still, most of the time it works pretty well.

[cutsy123]

gave up after 1st sentence

[tim_noone]

gave up after 1st sentence

me to.....

[Quickenthetempo]

We used to have the same tactics of pressing and hunting the ball when we had Ings, Boyd et al.

[Vegas Claret]

by pass the midfield, give the new lad Laporte Barnes and Vokes to contend with. I'd play our biggest team and try and get something from set pieces. Oh, and ask the police to use that wall they stick up when we play Bastards - "across our 6 yard box will do nicely lads"

[KRBFC]

Narrow fullbacks who tuck inside to overcrowd and dominate the midfield which gives De Bruyne and Silva licence to roam forward. The central defenders split wide. Almost creates a 2341 formation. Genius really

[dibraidio]

We used to have the same tactics of pressing and hunting the ball when we had Ings, Boyd et al.

I don't agree. We don't target 65-70% possession for a start. We never press just after losing the ball because we hardly have the ball in the first place. We have a press but it's a completely different kind of press. When in possession we try to transition the ball efficiently to get it forward and our poor pass completion shows that it doesn't work as often as we might like. The player who won the ball doesn't look for a teammate who'll have a better vision of what's going on on the pitch, more often than not he'll bomb forward in the hope of hitting the opponent before they can get organised.

The only similarity in style is the last bit where he says, their style of play is so different to other teams that it takes time for players to learn the system.

[Hedontplayforyou]

Stick Barnes and Vokes up top. Arfield Cork Westwood and Lennon with same back four but changing Lowton for Bardsley.

Bit of pace with lennon and some rough and tough up top

[Spijed]

Interesting that it worked so well at Barcelona but not as well when he was in charge at Bayern Munich.

Wonder why?

[bfccrazy]

by pass the midfield, give the new lad Laporte Barnes and Vokes to contend with. I'd play our biggest team and try and get something from set pieces. Oh, and ask the police to use that wall they stick up when we play Bastards - "across our 6 yard box will do nicely lads"

Barnes did that when Magala 1st went there ... we drew 2-2 after being 2-0 down if I remember correctly. I'm still adamant Mangala had a quiet cry to himself after that match.

Palace went at them hard and it worked well. They "don't like it up em" anyways. The thing I noticed in the cup against them was the amount of respect we gave them compared to how much they gave us - every pass we made was hounded where we sat 3/4 yards off their players waiting for them to do something magical but also giving them the time/room to do so. Get in their faces and I think they'll worry more - the sort of players they have though, they'd still get out of it but make them play a different game than they're used to and things could change.

[bfccrazy]

Interesting that it worked so well at Barcelona but not as well when he was in charge at Bayern Munich.

Wonder why?

Because De Bruyne is a better anchor than he had at Bayern.

[ElectroClaret]

Barnes must play. He'll do the same job (hopefully) as last night, mashing up
the back line. As long as he stays on the pitch, of course.

And they've a few out.

And yes, De Bruyne needs looking after. Exceptional talent.
Stranger things have happened.

[claretcarrot93]

Interesting that it worked so well at Barcelona but not as well when he was in charge at Bayern Munich.

Wonder why?

To be fair its not like he failed ay Bayern he broke the european record for most wins in a row

[get stuck in tracy]

Stick your index finger directly up there bumhole, it has an amazingly debilitating effect. (It used to work up Towneley) !

[IanMcL]

All well and good if the other team a. Can't keep up and b. Also like to pass to their own man a few yards away.

However, if you are Dychefit and play 2 up front - one to hold up play or head on and the other with searing pace, you push them backwards or just score. Simple old style British would be best. Whoosh!

[JimmyMac'sMate]

Get stantastic on the staff now utc

[dsr]

First and foremost, Barcelona's tactic was to sign the best players. Once you've done that, you can assess your options; but with the players they had, they could have played long ball like John Beck and still won the league.

[Silkyskills1]

Narrow fullbacks who tuck inside to overcrowd and dominate the midfield which gives De Bruyne and Silva licence to roam forward. The central defenders split wide. Almost creates a 2341 formation. Genius really

Who'd have thought it was such a simple plan? Now I know what a genius can achieve, especially if there's a few hundred million pounds available to facilitate the process. I used to think Jimmy Mc was a genius. Oh, how wrong I was.

[Down_Rover]

easy. Play hoofball and keep winning the second ball. These sort of tactics do wind up the purists and if it starts to work it messes with their heads

[Stan Tastic]

gave up after 1st sentence

Why's that then, do you not fancy reading how they manage 70% possession in most games?

It's a football forum where I've just posted one of the most enlightening articles on football tactics and you and a couple of your mates can't be bothered to read it?

If it's too much for you maybe you could try reading a sentence a day and get back to us in time for next season's games against them.

[Quickenthetempo]

I don't agree. We don't target 65-70% possession for a start. We never press just after losing the ball because we hardly have the ball in the first place. We have a press but it's a completely different kind of press. When in possession we try to transition the ball efficiently to get it forward and our poor pass completion shows that it doesn't work as often as we might like. The player who won the ball doesn't look for a teammate who'll have a better vision of what's going on on the pitch, more often than not he'll bomb forward in the hope of hitting the opponent before they can get organised.

The only similarity in style is the last bit where he says, their style of play is so different to other teams that it takes time for players to learn the system.

You're right in it's different approach, what I meant was we try to catch people out in possession. If they make a mistake in their final 3rd of the pitch we have a lot better chance of it ending in a goal than if we start a move from the back and their all in position.

[boyyanno]

Peps tactics aren't revolutionary and they are certainly beatable.

I'm not saying he isn't a good manager but a lot of it comes back to Cruyff in my opinion. He also inherited Barcelona, went to Bayern and has spent hundreds of millions at City. How does he prove himself when he's at that level of club spending that amount of money?

[CoolClaret]

Balls into the channels for quick wingers to put crosses into the box for Vokes & Barnes...

Just gotta hope we can get out of our own half....

[Spijed]

Crystal Palace did very well, as did Bristol city.

Who knows?

[elwaclaret]

Remember Barcelona once getting murdered by pass and move. Think it was by someone you'd not of given much hope to.... might have been Ajax.

Not suggesting that we could match Ajax levels of passing but its always harder to hit a moving target.

[KRBFC]

Who'd have thought it was such a simple plan? Now I know what a genius can achieve, especially if there's a few hundred million pounds available to facilitate the process. I used to think Jimmy Mc was a genius. Oh, how wrong I was.

It's genius, don't worry keep hating, the majority of the football world will see him as a world class coach.

[KRBFC]

Peps tactics aren't revolutionary and they are certainly beatable.

I'm not saying he isn't a good manager but a lot of it comes back to Cruyff in my opinion. He also inherited Barcelona, went to Bayern and has spent hundreds of millions at City. How does he prove himself when he's at that level of club spending that amount of money?

I've never understood the logic behind an opinion like this, you're saying it like he has to prove himself in the Championship to manage in the Champions League. It's like saying you need experience sweeping the floor to become the owner of the place. Do footballers need experience in the lower leagues to play at the very top? Do PL players need that experience out in France? Why would a manager at one of the top clubs need experience in the free transfer world? How would that benefit City? Surely it's the opposite and he needs experience managing big clubs, in big competitions, handling world class players and assembling the squad.

It's like some on here are bitter about the finance at the top, it's the way modern day football is. Think of it this way, why has Dyche not got a Champions League job? after all he's proven himself at a lower level and with free transfers? I'll tell you one reason...... because the top 4 clubs don't employ managers good at getting out of the Championship or avoiding relegation on a shoestring budget because it's a whole different game at the top. There's levels to the game, look at Paul Cook, is that 3 successive promotions at 3 different clubs? why is he not managing Barcelona? he's proven at different clubs he can win the league.

''How does he prove himself when he's at that level of club spending that amount of money?'' Let me flip this, How does Dyche prove himself to be capable of managing in the Champions League and winning titles when he hasn't proven he can manage world class players or attract world class stars.

[boyyanno]

I've never understood the logic behind an opinion like this, you're saying it like he has to prove himself in the Championship to manage in the Champions League. It's like saying you need experience sweeping the floor to become the owner of the place. Do footballers need experience in the lower leagues to play at the very top? Do PL players need that experience out in France? Why would a manager at one of the top clubs need experience in the free transfer world? How would that benefit City? Surely it's the opposite and he needs experience managing big clubs, in big competitions, handling world class players and assembling the squad.

Except that isn't what I said at all. I asked a general question on how he does prove himself. If you think moving clubs from the world best teams and spending more money than anyone else is a barometer of how good a manager you are then I'd completely disagree. Brian Cloughs achievements will dump all over Peps unless he goes on to win everything, and I'm including world cups in that. The expectation at Peps clubs is to win everything, my genuine question is how does he go about making himself the best of the best? Which I think we both agree he could be at some point in the future.

[CFS]

They cannot be countered just seem to be bullying the s**t out of teams tbh.

[jlup1980]

Going off this season it would appear the only way to beat them is to take them on at their own game. They're incredible going forward but suspect at the back. However, you can only really take them on if you have players of a similar standard. Liverpool showed this. It was like watching an old Newcastle game under Keegan!! Just two teams going at each other, closing each other down and aiming to out score each other. It helps if you have Firmino, Salah, Mane etc... we don't! The only way we can hope to get anything is by keeping narrow, forcing them out wide and hoping lady luck is on our side!!

[KRBFC]

Except that isn't what I said at all. I asked a general question on how he does prove himself. If you think moving clubs from the world best teams and spending more money than anyone else is a barometer of how good a manager you are then I'd completely disagree. Brian Cloughs achievements will dump all over Peps unless he goes on to win everything, and I'm including world cups in that. The expectation at Peps clubs is to win everything, my genuine question is how does he go about making himself the best of the best? Which I think we both agree he could be at some point in the future.

The best managers tend to get the top jobs, it's just how it works. To be considered one of the best you win trophies and style of play is important. Pep's biggest achievement isn't winning trophies, it's his coaching and tactical work that creates the style of play we see. He has already put himself down as one of the best coaches ever from his style of play. The PL has seen nothing like it and the financial power has always been there. Johan Cruyff invented tiki-taka at Barca in the 90s while Pep was playing, Cruyff was Pep's idol and he's took that style of play and transformed it. I think some people believe to be the best you have to win trophies in the lower leagues and work on a shoestring budget which is hilarious.

[dsr]

I've never understood the logic behind an opinion like this, you're saying it like he has to prove himself in the Championship to manage in the Champions League. It's like saying you need experience sweeping the floor to become the owner of the place. Do footballers need experience in the lower leagues to play at the very top? Do PL players need that experience out in France? Why would a manager at one of the top clubs need experience in the free transfer world? How would that benefit City? Surely it's the opposite and he needs experience managing big clubs, in big competitions, handling world class players and assembling the squad.

It's like some on here are bitter about the finance at the top, it's the way modern day football is. Think of it this way, why has Dyche not got a Champions League job? after all he's proven himself at a lower level and with free transfers? I'll tell you one reason...... because the top 4 clubs don't employ managers good at getting out of the Championship or avoiding relegation on a shoestring budget because it's a whole different game at the top. There's levels to the game, look at Paul Cook, is that 3 successive promotions at 3 different clubs? why is he not managing Barcelona? he's proven at different clubs he can win the league.

''How does he prove himself when he's at that level of club spending that amount of money?'' Let me flip this, How does Dyche prove himself to be capable of managing in the Champions League and winning titles when he hasn't proven he can manage world class players or attract world class stars.

The point is, he has proved that he can win championships when he's managing the club with the most money and the best players. That's not a mark of genius - it's a mark that he's good, but it's no proof that he's better than the man who comes second. It's a bit like Lewis Hamilton - does he consistently finish first because he's the best driver, or is it because he's got the best car?

[TheFamilyCat]

Nobble their lasagne

[boyyanno]

The best managers tend to get the top jobs, it's just how it works. To be considered one of the best you win trophies and style of play is important. Pep's biggest achievement isn't winning trophies, it's his coaching and tactical work that creates the style of play we see. He has already put himself down as one of the best coaches ever from his style of play. The PL has seen nothing like it and the financial power has always been there. Johan Cruyff invented tiki-taka at Barca in the 90s while Pep was playing, Cruyff was Pep's idol and he's took that style of play and transformed it. I think some people believe to be the best you have to win trophies in the lower leagues and work on a shoestring budget which is hilarious.

Do you read anyone's posts? No one has said you have to win trophies in the lower leagues to be the best have they?

I bet you **** when you fart you're that eager to blow hot-air out.

[Silkyskills1]

It's genius, don't worry keep hating, the majority of the football world will see him as a world class coach.

A strange reply. You do assume a lot about others especially when drooling about your 'Pep'. I'm not 'worrying' and not 'hating' anybody or anything. He's made his mark in football as have many,many others before him and as will many more after him.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Guardiola or ‘Pep’ (to those who seem to know him well) will be taking a restraining order out at this rate come full time on Saturday!

[KRBFC]

The point is, he has proved that he can win championships when he's managing the club with the most money and the best players. That's not a mark of genius - it's a mark that he's good, but it's no proof that he's better than the man who comes second. It's a bit like Lewis Hamilton - does he consistently finish first because he's the best driver, or is it because he's got the best car?

He spent hardly anything at Barca in his first season and won the treble. He bought Pique for £3M and promoted Busquets and Pedro from the B team where he coached them through the system.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

He has spent nearly 1 billion pounds in transfer fees alone in his 10 years as a manager.

[dsr]

He spent hardly anything at Barca in his first season and won the treble. He bought Pique for £3M and promoted Busquets and Pedro from the B team where he coached them through the system.

I don't know how much he spent, but he did sign Dani Alves, Seydou Keita, Martin Caceres, Gerard Pique, Alexander Hleb, and Henrique.

Wikipedia claims that Alves cost €30m Keita €14m, Caceres €16.5m, Pique €5m, Hleb €17m, and Henrique €10m. But Wikipedia could be wrong, and maybe they did cost £3m for the lot. (This was to add to a side that had just reached the semi-final of the Champions League.)

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

I’m pretty confident Sean, Ian, Billy and the rest of our coaching staff along with captain Ben will have put plenty of thought into how to counter Pep.

[KRBFC]

I don't know how much he spent, but he did sign Dani Alves, Seydou Keita, Martin Caceres, Gerard Pique, Alexander Hleb, and Henrique.

Wikipedia claims that Alves cost €30m Keita €14m, Caceres €16.5m, Pique €5m, Hleb €17m, and Henrique €10m. But Wikipedia could be wrong, and maybe they did cost £3m for the lot. (This was to add to a side that had just reached the semi-final of the Champions League.)

I said £3M for Pique not the lot? you're so awkward

[dsr]

I said £3M for Pique not the lot? you're so awkward

OK, take it not so much as a correction, more as an addition to what you said. "He spent hardly anything at Barca in his first season and won the treble. He bought Pique for £3M and promoted Busquets and Pedro from the B team where he coached them through the system" is true if you count €90m as "hardly anything", but I think knowing the actual total spend adds something to the tale. Don't you?

[IanMcL]

On Saturday....

Barnes up front with Lennon playing off him.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

On Saturday....

Barnes up front with Lennon playing off him.

Ashley and Aaron.

[Clevedon Claret]

Ashley and Aaron.

AA
Breakdown boys.

[KRBFC]

OK, take it not so much as a correction, more as an addition to what you said. "He spent hardly anything at Barca in his first season and won the treble. He bought Pique for £3M and promoted Busquets and Pedro from the B team where he coached them through the system" is true if you count €90m as "hardly anything", but I think knowing the actual total spend adds something to the tale. Don't you?

They spent around 80 million and brought in about 50 million from sales, hardly a fortune compared to clubs around him. Like I said, he promoted young players and coached them into super stars and bought Pique back from Man United for about the same as we spent on Juke and Sordell.

[ElectroClaret]

Barnes'll rough em up. Could be good, Lennon feeding off his efforts.

Suspect it'll not be enough, though. Hope I'm wrong.
Stranger things have happened.

[dsr]

They spent around 80 million and brought in about 50 million from sales, hardly a fortune compared to clubs around him. Like I said, he promoted young players and coached them into super stars and bought Pique back from Man United for about the same as we spent on Juke and Sordell.

Don't sweat it. They spent €90m, which you call "hardly anything", there is no issue here. And like you say, Real Madrid and Sevilla each spent €30m, Athletico Madrid €20m, Sevilla €10m, Racing Santander and Real Mallorca about €5m each - as you say, the clubs around Barcelona actually spent more money. If you add them all together.

[City fan]

Obviously I am a fan of Guardiola!

Guardiola hasn't just assembled a lot of very expensive players, he has introduced a style of play with the characteristics that his Barcelona and Bayern teams were known for and 25 games in, we've won 22. That's pretty amazing. City spent big under Hughes, Mancini and Pellegrini. None of them came close to the football that Pep has produced. In fact under Hughes we were mid-table. We had Robinho, Adebayor, Gareth Barry, Kolo Toure, De Jong, Lescott all very expensively acquired.

The previous best side was the one that pipped Utd to the title in the last seconds of the season with that Aguero moment. That season we won 28 games. To match that we need 6 wins from 13 games. And this City side is in the Champions League, the FA Cup and the League Cup final.

Individual players are much improved. what I really like is the total commitment of the team in every game. That comes from the manager. You have that too.

City could well get beat at Burnley. I've said lots of good things about Guardiola, not because I think he has made us invincble. We are not, and I always think we could get beat in the next game. We have just had an amazing season so far. You have to pinch yourself to believe that this is happening to our club.

I do think that city are entering a difficult period now because we have lost players. Players like Jesus and sane have been outstanding, and we miss them no matter how good the other players are. Sane can produce some amazing runs. There just is no one else like him. Going to be out for quite a while.

[HunterST_BFC]

I do think that city are entering a difficult period now because we have lost players. Players like Jesus and sane have been outstanding, and we miss them no matter how good the other players are. .

We've relied on the Pope.