Nick Pope & Sean Dyche

Funkydrummer · Post by **Funkydrummer** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:04 am

He wanted to leave Wet Spam because he has fallen out of favour, and that might
spoil his chances of going to the World Cup.

NO, Joe, you might not go because you're cr@p.

Get over it and count your money.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:20 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Pope won't make the England squad.

For one, his kicking is erratic at best. At international level possession is key, and Pope just does not possess the skills to find his own teammates more often than not. For every successful pass, he's found touch once, found their keeper once and sliced one. That's not the standard required of a modern elite level goalkeeper.

Secondly, he has definitely made errors leading to goals.

Heaton is by far the better all round goalkeeper, with Pope only edging him in the claiming crosses department.

Given how much you love stats, I'm surprised you didn't check them before you posted this.

dougcollins · Post by **dougcollins** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:21 am

Height always for me, in a keeper.

Pope keeps the shirt unless he shows a loss of form.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:54 am

Tall Paul wrote:Given how much you love stats, I'm surprised you didn't check them before you posted this.

I hadn't checked the stats, but thank you for the pointer.

Top of the Pops when it comes to Inaccurate Long Balls for goalkeepers in the whole of the Premier League is Nick Pope, with 20.1 inaccurate long balls per 90 minutes.

Jack Butland has 16.2
Hart 16.1

Nick Pope plays an inaccurate long ball once every 4.5 minutes. Again, he's the worst offender in the whole Premier League for this.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:56 am

dougcollins wrote:Height always for me, in a keeper.

So you'd have Costel Pantilimon over Buffon?

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:00 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:I hadn't checked the stats, but thank you for the pointer.

Top of the Pops when it comes to Inaccurate Long Balls for goalkeepers in the whole of the Premier League is Nick Pope, with 20.1 inaccurate long balls per 90 minutes.

Jack Butland has 16.2
Hart 16.1

Nick Pope plays an inaccurate long ball once every 4.5 minutes. Again, he's the worst offender in the whole Premier League for this.

The stats indeed show that 2/3rds of Nick Pope's passes are inaccurate.

52% of Butland's are inaccurate, 53% of Hart's are inaccurate.

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:00 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:I hadn't checked the stats, but thank you for the pointer.

Top of the Pops when it comes to Inaccurate Long Balls for goalkeepers in the whole of the Premier League is Nick Pope, with 20.1 inaccurate long balls per 90 minutes.

Jack Butland has 16.2
Hart 16.1

Nick Pope plays an inaccurate long ball once every 4.5 minutes. Again, he's the worst offender in the whole Premier League for this.

Not helping that stat by the fact every single time we start attacking, it somehow ends up back to him. Even from corners. Well, either that or another shot on goal.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:04 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:The stats indeed show that 2/3rds of Nick Pope's passes are inaccurate.

52% of Butland's are inaccurate, 53% of Hart's are inaccurate.

It's actually 61%. You said it was 3/4, or 75% before.

The stats also say that he hasn't made any errors leading to a goal.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:11 am

Tall Paul wrote:It's actually 61%. You said it was 3/4, or 75% before.

The stats also say that he hasn't made any errors leading to a goal.

Ball going through his hands at Bournemouth
Giving penalty away v Man City
Charging out of his area at City
Diving wrong way against Utd

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:14 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Ball going through his hands at Bournemouth
Giving penalty away v Man City
Charging out of his area at City
Diving wrong way against Utd

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top ... ad_to_goal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:17 am

Tall Paul wrote:https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top ... ad_to_goal

So you don't watch our games then?

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:25 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:So you don't watch our games then?

Hang on, are you saying the stats are wrong in this case? How do we know when to believe the stats and when not to?

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:28 am

Passes are quantifiable with stats.

The PL's errors leading to goal are misplaced short passes or dispossessions, hence why outfield players are on there.

They don't look at goalkeepers racing 30 yards out of goal for no apparent reason, or diving completely the wrong way when faced with a shot, or the ball passing straight through their arms, or sliding into other players and giving away penalties.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:30 am

dougcollins wrote:
Pope keeps the shirt unless he shows a loss of form.

This is the only reason to drop Pope, a loss of form.
As it stands right now we aren't sliding down the table and he's still making saves to keep us in the game etc.

He's hardly having a mare and you can throw your stats in the bin.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:34 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:Passes are quantifiable with stats.

The PL's errors leading to goal are misplaced short passes or dispossessions, hence why outfield players are on there.

They don't look at goalkeepers racing 30 yards out of goal for no apparent reason, or diving completely the wrong way when faced with a shot, or the ball passing straight through their arms, or sliding into other players and giving away penalties.

How do we compare Pope's performance in this regard to other goalkeepers?

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:35 am

Tall Paul wrote:How do we compare Pope's performance in this regard to other goalkeepers?

By watching with your eyes.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:38 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:By watching with your eyes.

From watching with my eyes I think Pope compares favourably with other goalkeepers (and the stats appear to bear this out).

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:39 am

I don't watch much footy on TV anymore, I'm guessing you record and/or watch a lot of footy?

I only see other GK's when they're playing against us.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:41 am

Tall Paul wrote:From watching with my eyes I think Pope compares favourably with other goalkeepers (and the stats appear to bear this out).

My first point was with regards to his distribution. As I've shown, the stats support what I've seen with my own eyes, home and away.

His passing accuracy is way off the elite level required for him to be a goalkeeper for England in a World Cup.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:43 am

I've seen GK's at the world cup who aren't elite players.

I've seen England players at world cups who aren't elite players.

DingleDangle · Post by **DingleDangle** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:44 am

To be honest, I think its up to Tom to prove his fitness and to train hard to grab the shirt back off Nick, as he really hasn't done anything wrong to deserve being dropped and I wouldn't expect Sean to just drop Nick back to the bench either.

We have 2 very good keepers on our books and its a very good situation for us to be in and a difficult conundrum for Dyche to work out. I think we also underestimate the camaraderie between both Heaton and Pope have built up off the pitch, as they both seem very level headed lads and they train together day in day out, building up a friendship, trust and respect with each other......so I honestly cant see where any 'bitterness' would come from if either one wasn't playing or was dropped for the other,and also given the fact that they both know and understand that only one keeper can play in a match.

Imo it's stupid to bring the above stats up, as it seems we're now trying to beat Pope with a stick and to justify why Heaton should be starting in place of him......just plain mind-numbingly stupid......as is the earlier notions of getting rid of Pope in the summer or even more bizzarely and daft, loaning Pope out (eh!?!). If stats is your bag (not mine), then surely the only ones that matter are Heaton v Pope?

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:47 am

UpTheBeehole wrote:My first point was with regards to his distribution. As I've shown, the stats support what I've seen with my own eyes, home and away.

His passing accuracy is way off the elite level required for him to be a goalkeeper for England in a World Cup.

They don't support your original comment that only one out every four of his passes is successful though.

Don't be going all Ringo on us, admit your mistake.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:52 am

Tall Paul wrote:They don't support your original comment that only one out every four of his passes is successful though.

Don't be going all Ringo on us, admit your mistake.

A sliced kick can still reach a teammate.

My point stands. He's statistically the worst keeper at retaining possession in the Premier League. That was my impression from watching him, and it was borne out by the statistics.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:00 pm

Yet we are still doing well.

Sometimes you need to look past the stats

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:01 pm

Heaton's passing accuracy was very similar last season, not sure it's all down to the goalkeeper.

claretcarrot93 · Post by **claretcarrot93** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:12 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Ball going through his hands at Bournemouth
Giving penalty away v Man City
Charging out of his area at City
Diving wrong way against Utd

Charging out his area at City is his only error out of them and the game was already lost. The other three are bullshit.

He should have done better at Leiceister though.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:12 pm

claretcarrot93 wrote:Charging out his area at City is his only error out of them and the game was already lost. The other three are bullshit.

He should have done better at Leiceister though.

Oh I forgot that one.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:14 pm

: pickford stats.JPG (79.1 KiB) Viewed 2828 times

: hart stats.JPG (73.78 KiB) Viewed 2828 times

: pope stats.JPG (76.91 KiB) Viewed 2828 times

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:15 pm

Pickford, Hart, Pope in that order for stats this season.

HiroshimaClaret · Post by **HiroshimaClaret** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:15 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:Ball going through his hands at Bournemouth
Giving penalty away v Man City
Charging out of his area at City
Diving wrong way against Utd

Balls, I say...balls!

claretcarrot93 · Post by **claretcarrot93** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:16 pm

Sidney1st wrote:
pickford stats.JPG

hart stats.JPG

pope stats.JPG

The high claims stat is good. Best thing about Pope that. Takes the pressure off. Very assured in that department

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:17 pm

Forgot to add, Pickford has only played a couple more games than Pope and Hart has played about a dozen.

tim_noone · Post by **tim_noone** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:20 pm

IanMcL wrote:England's 1 and 2 for World Cup anyone?

I think toms injury may curtail him playing.pickford pope an A nother for me.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:23 pm

: Ederson stats.JPG (73.67 KiB) Viewed 2810 times

: courtois stats.JPG (75.06 KiB) Viewed 2810 times

: de gea.JPG (75.03 KiB) Viewed 2810 times

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:23 pm

Good discussion this. In my opinion, Pope should keep the shirt. He has done well since coming in and I believe that instantly dropping him for Heaton would be unfair and send out the wrong message. Yes, Heaton is our captain and an England international. He's an excellent goalkeeper. However, I don't see any reason to drop Pope unless he suffers a downturn in form. What a problem to have, eh!

Either way, I think there's absolutely no rush to get Heaton back in the side (though I'm sure he's chomping at the bit and keen to be involved in the world cup). I hope that both Pope and Heaton are here in the summer and fighting for the spot. I'd be disappointed to see Pope go as he obviously has a bright future. Hopefully it's with us!

BurnleyPete · Post by **BurnleyPete** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:25 pm

I liken this to when Courtois was on loan and wanted a permanent move away from Chelsea. Chelsea ended up selling the older, Petr Cech, so keeping their younger goalkeeper who had more years left in the tank.

Should we be doing the same by selling Heaton and keeping the younger Pope now he has proved himself at Premier League level? Ideally we'll play Heaton and Pope will be happy to stay. Both fantastic keepers.

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:26 pm

Tom needs to get in ASAP.

If they're planning to use him next season, he needs to start when he's able.

quoonbeatz · Post by **quoonbeatz** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:36 pm

wouldn't be surprised for pope to see the season out.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:56 pm

Great problem to have.

Pope has done brilliantly, but its not contradictory to point out that at the same, time, he's got away with a few goals against that would have seen previous keepers - Jensen and Grant for two - knocked for. But its good he's had that patience and goodwill.

The biggest thing Heaton adds is that I'm fairly sure he's a bit more vocal as an organiser, and also he's a better kicker (this is obviously a big weakness in Pope's game).

KefkaClaret · Post by **KefkaClaret** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:10 pm

“Nick Pope, if he could only kick a ball, Nick Pope”

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:12 pm

Not so sure how Hart would qualify on the stats presented.

There is another stat which was presented last season about goals conceded and saves made relating to how many should have been saved versus how many conceded unneccessarily. Heaton was out front by a distance.

KefkaClaret · Post by **KefkaClaret** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:16 pm

If you like the use of stats in football you may like this table.

Xg is what the expected goals should have been.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:20 pm

Thanks Kefka. that's the one.

Others eg Forster, were much worse and yet still touted ahead of Tom, at the time.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:14 am

watsonsclarets wrote:Pope 6 One big arm save poor kicking

Slurpy wrote:Pope 5- Not much to do but some of the worst kicking I've ever seen miss Heatons distribution.

FCBurnley wrote: Pope 5 Nothing to do and kicking was shocking....again

careyclaret wrote:What an awful game and awful performance. I thought the 88th minute summed it up. We desperately need a goal and we are passing it sideways and backwards, lose possession, they almost score, Pope kick goes into touch.

Always a fan wrote:Pope 6 kicking just don't know what to expect.

CaptJohn wrote: Pope 6 Great reaction save from one of the Ayews in the 2nd half but poor kicking again.

jedi_master · Post by **jedi_master** » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:22 am

Pope's done great, but Heaton is the best goalkeeper I have ever seen at Burnley and I am reliably told is one of the very best we have ever had by people who have been watching since the Glory days.

You can't pick a team on sentimentality and whilst Pope has done wonders this season and clearly is the number one in waiting, you cannot-not play Tom Heaton. He is the captain, Mr Consistency and has been one of (if not THE, after Dyche) key reasons we are where we are.

If he's fit, he goes straight in for me.

1914tyrone · Post by **1914tyrone** » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:54 am

jedi_master wrote:Pope's done great, but Heaton is the best goalkeeper I have ever seen at Burnley and I am reliably told is one of the very best we have ever had by people who have been watching since the Glory days.

You can't pick a team on sentimentality and whilst Pope has done wonders this season and clearly is the number one in waiting, you cannot-not play Tom Heaton. He is the captain, Mr Consistency and has been one of (if not THE, after Dyche) key reasons we are where we are.

If he's fit, he goes straight in for me.

Spot on, me to. Pope not in same league just yet.

Ric_C · Post by **Ric_C** » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:06 am

Young keeper gets thrown into the deep end with his first experience of premier league football, and does WAY better than anyone could have ever dreamed of...

And here we have a thread picking apart his few mistakes and his poor kicking

Go figure!

For my money Tom is the better all round keeper, but I wouldn’t be rushing him back as he’s got the worst injury a goalkeeper could possibly get. I know from experience

Ooogeorgeorgeoghani · Post by **Ooogeorgeorgeoghani** » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:25 am

All this Dyche is loyal to his players is true to a certain extent , however he will always pick who he thinks is the better player, anyone think long will keep tarks on the bench ! Heaton will be back in when he proves he is fully fit , pope has done really well but Heaton has more to his game and has showed this consistently, pope is young and hopefully will be Heaton replacement in years to come

watsonsclarets · Post by **watsonsclarets** » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:08 am

I would bring Heaton back as soon as he ready for leadership and ability.

Pope not done nothing wrong he just not Tom Heaton.

In all the time Heaton been here he has been outstanding and steady and i expect him to be our number 1 when fit.

He for me is a better all round keeper.

whiffa · Post by **whiffa** » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:13 am

For me it's not just about their ability between the sticks shot-stopping. As good as Pope has been, Heaton is our Captain and also has a better distribution. If Heaton is Dyche fit, he has to come back in. With Butland, Forster, Hart and Pickford all not having great seasons - I'd hope it'd give Tom enough time to atleast be put into possible contention for the World Cup.