Why are the more established PL teams struggling to stay up?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:10 pm

Just looking at the PL table and the teams relegated last season and I'm wondering why the more established teams are starting to get relegated more than the newly promoted teams, inc teams in the PL for the first time?

Is it the quality of the managers?

Or is it the players?
I've seen it mentioned on here over the last couple of seasons that we've had a team made up of mainly Championship standard players yet they've put in outstanding performances to keep us up last season and in the top 10 this season.

It can't just be down to effort can it?

MACCA · Post by **MACCA** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:15 pm

To make it a a short reply...
IMO it's all about money, too much too young, and plenty of players happy to sit on their arse ( some not always giving 100% ) picking up a wage without wanting to put the hard yards in.

northernpowerhouse · Post by **northernpowerhouse** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:16 pm

Because of all the money from the latest TV deal. Even newly promoted clubs can spend a shedload and they're spending it quite well at the moment. It evens the playing field.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:18 pm

Variance.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:18 pm

Makes you wonder why Boro & Hull failed so miserably last season.

d1sc0 · Post by **d1sc0** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:20 pm

Championship standard...... I think not. IMO the majority of our considered first team do not look out of place in the premier league.

Any successful business, team, enterprise are successful with a combined team effort. Starts from the top down. Every tiny little cock in a well oiled machine. We are were we currently are because we are that good. Not because we are a team.of championship players that run harder than anybody else........ although we do run harder than the majority

ClaretTony · Post by **ClaretTony** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:22 pm

Two of the promoted teams - Hull and Middlesbrough - went down last season which was the last relegation from the Premier League.

In all likelihood, this year will be an exception. I think all of Brighton, Newcastle and Huddersfield have a reasonable chance of surviving.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:23 pm

because the likes of Stoke and WBA have forgotten what got them established. Stoke fans where sick of Pulis and his style of play and wanted a more "cultured" style and WBA have followed suit.

UpTheBeehole · Post by **UpTheBeehole** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:23 pm

d1sc0 wrote: Starts from the top down. Every tiny little cock in a well oiled machine.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:36 pm

All the teams at the bottom seem unbalanced. Mixture of too old and too young. Lack of leaders on the field. Some poor signings.
Then the unknown is always the dressing room. Are they mates or are there cliques? Is there unrest over salaries?
It's fantastic to see the changing of the guard in the PL and long may it continue.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:53 pm

I remember reading that a total of 49 different Clubs have played in the Premier League since it's inception in 1992...when you include this season..

I wonder if anyone can tell us how this compares to say Italy, Spain, France and Germany over the same period ?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:59 pm

Clarets4me wrote:I remember reading that a total of 49 different Clubs have played in the Premier League since it's inception in 1992...when you include this season..

I wonder if anyone can tell us how this compares to say Italy, Spain, France and Germany over the same period ?

According to an online quiz I've found, there are 50 clubs to name that have appeared in Serie A since 1992.

jurek · Post by **jurek** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:01 pm

Probably because they have conceded far too many goals.
Apart from the top 6, us and Leicester they've all got minus goal differences
and in some cases quite considerable differences. From -10 to -28.
It says a lot.
They may have scored more than we have but not that many more.

Possibly because they've concentrated on attack too much?

Chester Perry · Post by **Chester Perry** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:05 pm

A lot of it comes from believing you should be winning cups or aiming for European places while being entertaining - the change in style is being demanded almost immediately after 1 or 2 seasons staying up (we see it here). The problem comes if you try to evolve too quickly without the necessary understanding and due diligence of the players you are bringing in. This can be suicidal if the team you have spent years building a squad to play one way and then expect the same players to play a completely different way the next season. For many clubs this is the responsibility of the Director of Football as the coach (no longer manager in traditional terms) just has to work with what he is given. All this leads to short term thinking from coaches and players.

The other main factor is that once you start to show yourself as a threat to the established order, those with deep pockets cherry pick off you with the temptation to players/managers of multiplying their wages. Teams can get away with it once or twice but if you are a Southampton say - it has happened too often for them to retain stability (though their situation is magnified by sacking a manager who finished 8th and could have one a cup if the referee got his eyes fixed). This can either be the big boys (most likely players) or close rivals in league places (players and managers).

For instance everyone would expect Burnley to struggle if Dyche went in the summer (don't expect it for the reasons I outlined in the Pellegrino thread http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... =2&t=26893" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). As Jason Burt pointed out on 5Live last night - clubs need to be lining up players and managers as replacements 2 or 3 steps ahead (i.e. the next one and the one after that)

ŽižkovClaret · Post by **ŽižkovClaret** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:11 pm

In a word, complacency.

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:16 pm

The worry for these teams is that if they are relegated is what happens next.

Look at Sunderland, Bolton and Birmingham all struggling at the wrong end of the championship and then a step further Wigan and them down the road in league 1.

Makes our achievement of going straight back up look more of an achievement.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:19 pm

To me these teams fall into a trap. Sometimes it takes longer than others, but eventually pretty much all teams bar the traditional "top 6" fall foul. They constantly evolve and upgrade, but also constantly up their expectations. They come to believe (not unreasonably) after a few years, that at the start of every season they will definitely be there for the start of the next season with the accompanying cash that guarantees safely in the bank. They end up having the resources to pay over the odds for average players (often from abroad) who haven't been properly scouted or who may well not fit their system or club or even their manager, but because they can afford to take chances and a somewhat scatter gun approach, they do. Some work out and some don't, but it only takes the balance to tip over and SEVERAL to not work out and you're suddenly stuffed. I REALLY, REALLY hope all at BFC are alert to this as naturally just now our aspirations and our expectations are very high, but they ARE manageable and they remain realistic...for now! We must NOT lose sight at any time, even if we stay in the PL for 5/6 years, of what has got us where we are. Prudent buying at sensible prices of the RIGHT players who desperately WANT to step up, prove a point and play! The list is almost endless from Arfield to JBG and Pope. We must never change or stop doing what we do so well, but when you look at Villa, Sunderland, Rovers, Norwich et al and now (possibly 3 from) West Brom, Stoke, Southampton, West Ham, they've lost touch with what got them where they are.

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:32 pm

I think ChesterP in POST 14 has pretty much nailed it.

I think there's also an element of player hunger. When teams are fresh in the Prem, players are hugely driven by wanting to prove they can "do it on the big stage" (and improve their earnings of course). What happens when they've done that for a few years? The very best of them get snapped up by big6 clubs, the rest have proved they can survive & improved their standing & earnings; it's just a holding operation for them from then on & some (not all) will drift a bit.
It's a fairly close balance between relegation and mid-table security. Only takes the loss of a couple of key players and/or a couple to lose a bit of drive and away you go, especially if recruitment of new blood isn't spot on.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:01 pm

Newcastle, Brighton and Huddersfield played the season with most of their squad from last year. Therefore they had a team that didn't change much.
Boro and Hull both tried to buy new teams, and upset the apple cart in the process.
Many of the teams struggling are teams that have made a lot of changes, or paid big money for players that just haven't delivered.

I know a few people on here have complained about the lack of new players coming in, historically, and or the quality/cost, but small steps, little improvements each window is the best way of maintaining success.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:30 pm

Benitez wanted to buy a new squad, but Ashley wouldn't give him any pocket money to do so

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:40 pm

ZizkovClaret wrote:In a word, complacency.

Yup, I'd say so. You hear 'established' bandied about so much I think clubs' chairman and directors begin to believe it. There is no 'established' outside the top 6. Every single one of us could get relegated the next season.

West Brom, Stoke and Southampton would have been top of everyone's 'established' list at the start of the season, for what it's worth. You just need the three clubs coming up to have some balls and not to panic and anyone can struggle.

SalisburyClaret · Post by **SalisburyClaret** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:03 pm

Too many foreign managers who don't understand the PL and can't speak English well enough

Too much player recruitment abroad rather than the Championship etc

Lack of emphasis on developing a team

Trying to buy success - it doesn't work that often

Dublin7Claret · Post by **Dublin7Claret** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:07 pm

I think it's down to the quality of managers with the promoted teams. Benitez knows what he's doing at Newcastle, Hughton has been underrated and harshly treated at previous jobs, jury still out a wee bit with mini Klopp at Uddersfield but seems a good un. And of course we have Sir Sean

evensteadiereddie · Post by **evensteadiereddie** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:09 pm

An excellent summary, Darkcloud.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:14 pm

Shouldn't Everton be lumped into the top 6 to become the top 7 as they never get relegated?

As for the traditional big clubs, Man City were in the 3rd tier not many decades ago.

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:21 pm

Spijed wrote:Shouldn't Everton be lumped into the top 6 to become the top 7 as they never get relegated?

As for the traditional big clubs, Man City were in the 3rd tier not many decades ago.

And don’t forget that, for a brief period, Newcastle United were a Major Player at the Top End of the Division. Then, they were not and have subsequently been relegated twice.

Firthy · Post by **Firthy** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:38 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:And don’t forget that, for a brief period, Newcastle United were a Major Player at the Top End of the Division. Then, they were not and have subsequently been relegated twice.

So were Rovers and look at them now.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:06 pm

Only one club has Sean Dyche.

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:17 pm

IanMcL wrote:Only one club has Sean Dyche.

I posted this in late December....

" I would suggest we have upset a rather large number of premiership Managers, who are now having to explain to their Directors why they've asked for a mega-money transfer budget and a massive wage bill in order to get a tophalf finish etc, when there's some ginger skinhead ex-lower league " Stopper ", taking an unfashionable Club from a town half the size of Burton on Trent to 7th in the Premier League on a net spend of £5 million a year..... "

I think it rather reinforces your point, Ian !!

UTC !!

bodge · Post by **bodge** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:29 pm

Difficult to understand how WBA and Soton in particular have done so badly with the players at their disposal, i would take Morrison, Brunt, Jay, Rondon and Phillips at WBA (some as back up).

Likewise Saints have more than enough attacking threat, Tadic and Redmond haven't delivered though and Charlie has been missed.

Stoke i always had down as strugglers as they have no real goal threat outside of the giant Crouch and the prolific Berahino.

It's great news if 3 established sides go down as we need to make sure we stay up first and foremost and if Huddersfield, Brighton, Watford and Bournemouth avoid the drop, we are better positioned next season, likewise if Villa stay in the Championship.

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:37 pm

A lot of it is to do with them teams trying to play like the top end teams do.

Trying to walk the ball into the net.

Oh look, he's out wide, should he cross it? Should he F***, he's going back on his self and playing it across outside the penalty area, hoping that someone else can thread a pass through the eye of a needle.

CnBtruntru · Post by **CnBtruntru** » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:44 pm

Buying players for a lot of money who
A. are not good enough
B. are only there for the money/one last payday before retirement
We fortunately have picked up some gems in JBG,Tarks and The Pope, all three have been exceptional for a little over £5-6 million.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:40 am

CnBtruntru wrote:Buying players for a lot of money who
A. are not good enough
B. are only there for the money/one last payday before retirement

They are paying top money to middle ability players, can't go on forever.

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:44 am

Clarets4me wrote:I posted this in late December....

" I would suggest we have upset a rather large number of premiership Managers, who are now having to explain to their Directors why they've asked for a mega-money transfer budget and a massive wage bill in order to get a tophalf finish etc, when there's some ginger skinhead ex-lower league " Stopper ", taking an unfashionable Club from a town half the size of Burton on Trent to 7th in the Premier League on a net spend of £5 million a year..... "

I think it rather reinforces your point, Ian !!

UTC !!

That's not totally correct Clarets4me!
If one lives there, I believe one calls it Burton Upon Trent!

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:14 am

bodge wrote:
Stoke i always had down as strugglers as they have no real goal threat outside of the giant Crouch and the prolific Berahino.

Am I missing the sarcasm here about Berahino?

Clarets4me · Post by **Clarets4me** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:42 am

IanMcL wrote:That's not totally correct Clarets4me!
If one lives there, I believe one calls it Burton Upon Trent!

Good point, well made Ian !

Mrs Clarets4me viewed a youtube clip of Madge, as I explained how grossly unfair to our Continental friends it was that British talent shows unveiled Susan Boyle, Stavros Flatley and Paul Potts, whilst the French public had to endure our " Madge "...

I was treated to a rather " old fashioned " look....

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:36 am

boatshed bill wrote:They are paying top money to middle ability players, can't go on forever.

Interesting comment, especially as there are numerous Burnley fans who want, or believe, our wage bill needs to increase a lot more to enable us to remain competitive.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:48 am

Sidney1st wrote:Interesting comment, especially as there are numerous Burnley fans who want, or believe, our wage bill needs to increase a lot more to enable us to remain competitive.

Not quite.
Premier league players should be on premier league wages. I've always thought it's cheaper to pay our star players what they are worth, rather than take the money and try to replace them. There are always clauses you can add to avoid it causing problems in the future.
That said it must be a very, very happy squad. To sit where they are in the league, having made the various journeys to get there. They should be on cloud 9. Why would you want to leave

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:01 am

At what point do we start paying PL wages then and what amount are we talking about?

There are numerous players in the league being paid what you'd call PL wages but not really earning them.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:13 am

Sidney1st wrote:At what point do we start paying PL wages then and what amount are we talking about?

There are numerous players in the league being paid what you'd call PL wages but not really earning them.

Good question, and no answer.
The club will be wise as to what our peers are paying. That excludes the top 8 if you include Everton and Leicester. Everyone else should, if they have any sense, be tightening their belts while we slacken ours.
I would hate any of our players to move sideways, just for more money. As I said, it is cheaper to pay than replace, unless as in the case of Keane and Tarks, you have a ready made replacement already on the books.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:21 am

West Brom had have Pulis in charge. In the nicest possible way, they would probably stay up under Pulis but never do anything else and the squad has become so stale that even that wouldn't be a guarantee. Pardew plays a much more attacking style of football and he's just not got the time or the tools to change it.

Southampton keep changing managers and signing players who don't really fit in with the premier league, and made a bad decision last summer to sack Puel and bring in Pellingrini (but at least they tried to appoint someone different, if Hughes gets the job its like "well, look at what he's done at Stoke)

Stoke have spent a fortune on being mediocre. Both the board and Hughes are at fault here but for what they have spent they are not as good as they should be. I'm not sure Paul Lambert is the manager to turn that around and shows the difficulty of getting really good managers in mid-season.

Main reason is though that every club has £100 million each season. Only the top six are safe from a relegation struggle to be honest, and it only takes a bad start for the narrative to turn to that club. Add fan expectations levels (some of the stuff on here for example when we lose is beyond ridiculous) and a toxic atmosphere quickly develops as we saw (extreme case I admit) on Saturday.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:56 am

Sidney1st wrote:Interesting comment, especially as there are numerous Burnley fans who want, or believe, our wage bill needs to increase a lot more to enable us to remain competitive.

Whilst I have no idea what we pay individual players it's apparent that we are paying enough to be competitive.
It's good to see the club setting such high standards on the field whilst controlling expenditure.
There are clearly some players hungry enough. (if you can find them!)

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:19 am

Fairness is a key to pay within our squad. All paid similar, I understand. No doubt, some more than others but not outrageous,

The danger for any club is to sign one or two who stick out and yet fail to deliver. Beginning of the end.

Up the Clarets.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:42 am

I think our wage bill will be very hefty this year with a lot of bonuses being paid. I wouldn't be surprised if some players are approaching 100% bonuses on their basic wage with the way this season has gone.

NL Claret · Post by **NL Claret** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:58 am

aggi wrote:I think our wage bill will be very hefty this year with a lot of bonuses being paid. I wouldn't be surprised if some players are approaching 100% bonuses on their basic wage with the way this season has gone.

Would this be in line though with the final league position payment / bonus?

If we were to stay in 7th that would be roughly £17m more than last season's £9.5m (based on last season's merit payments taken from the Daily Mirror)

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:10 am

In terms of what we pay, I've seen references in the past couple of years that suggest we have a more performance-related element in our remuneration cf what many other clubs have.
If this is so, I'm in favour. If you get £40k per week irrespective of how you play, it makes it a bit "comfort zone" to types who aren't that competitive/ conscientious (though that would be a minority I think).
If we finish 7th rather than 16th this season, that'll be c £18 million extra prize money for the club. Passing on a few £million of that to the players (and management) seems a good move.
If bonuses are mostly equally shared by the team - even better.

chekhov · Post by **chekhov** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:28 am

Bin Ont Turf wrote:A lot of it is to do with them teams trying to play like the top end teams do.

Trying to walk the ball into the net.

Oh look, he's out wide, should he cross it? Should he F***, he's going back on his self and playing it across outside the penalty area, hoping that someone else can thread a pass through the eye of a needle.

Yes I like what you're saying. I think the same thing.I like to watch pretty football but sometimes I'm shouting at my screen, just get the ball in the box! I'm sure loads of attacking opportunities are lost by teams/managers being too "proud" to say, get the ball forward quick and create chances. Leicester City are a notable exception, as are we.

AshevilleNCClaret · Post by **AshevilleNCClaret** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:58 pm

Honestly I think it comes down to effort. We are willing to put in a full shift for 90 mins. Most teams don't.
The talent difference between the 7th and 20th places is negligible.
Managers do make a difference but they can only pull so many strings to get their team prepared.
SD gets a full effort from our team each week. Sure, there have been weeks we have look poor, but you can't doubt our effort

I looked at the table and half of the teams are scoring 1 goal or less per match.
More effort would turn 1-0 losses into 0-0 draws.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:09 pm

I also believe there is another point to be made here. Someone said above "they let in too many goals" and I think that's a very good point. And they let in too many goals (imo) because forwards are relatively easy to find and forwards who score 3/4 goals in a few months suddenly become hot property and worth zillions, but really good defenders are actually much, much harder to find and to defend properly you have to get 5 chaps all aligned and all in perfect harmony, PLUS the set up in front of them has to be disciplined and give as much protection as possible. SD is an absolute master at this and the likes of Ward, Lowton, Mee etc are not players that well known away from Turf Moor, but they are excellent DEFENDERS and getting a grip of the "goals against" column is the first step to PL survival. It's not always that other teams can't see this, it's just that it's such a difficult thing to sort because the necessary personnel don't grow on trees. As kids, everyone wants to be a striker and score goals, stopping them isn't nearly so much fun! (Unless you're Ben Mee that is!)

Stayingup · Post by **Stayingup** » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:01 pm

Because fans demand more entertaining football. I've heard the rumblings at Burnley this season already and we haven't completed two seasons in the EPL yet
As our manager says incremental improvement season on season. Entertain when you can and dig in when you have to. Points are what matter. That is a mantra seemingly forgotten at Stoke and W. Brom. I think.both of these will go down along with Southampton. Going to be tough for Blackburn next season, particularly when the Champìonship.deadwood (pun!!!) like Sunderland yes Sunderland and Burton are gone.