Nerve gas

Lord Rothbury · Post by **Lord Rothbury** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:39 am

Comrade Corbyn suggests we should give Russia a sample of the nerve gas used at Salisbury so they can carry out their own tests on it .Apparently they can then confirm if they sourced it .Well that should get to the bottom of the matter .

PaintYorkClaretnBlue · Post by **PaintYorkClaretnBlue** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:49 am

Why not? They may test it and admit to the world that they made it. They wouldn’t lie would they??

What planet is Corbyn on? As much as I hate May and the tories, that man is dangerous!

The country is stuck between a rock and a hard place with the political parties at the moment. There are no decent credible ones to vote into power!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:11 am

Even us sandal wearing libtards were staggered by the level of naivety this shows.

It took Russia fifty years, in the face of all the evidence, the collapse of the Soviet Union and the loss of most of its controlled terrority to apologise for the Katyn Massacre.

The chances of Russia admitting to this is are nil.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:30 am

Do you seriously think it is naivety and not just supporting his beliefs?

Might as well send them some Marmite.

dermotdermot · Post by **dermotdermot** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:55 am

One day, hopefully sooner rather than later, this blip on the political horizon that is Corbyn, will be just an distant unpleasant memory.

Erasmus · Post by **Erasmus** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:59 am

The argument would be that we need to follow due process and thereby undermine one line of Russia's denial. Why not do it? It draws a clear line between us and the Russians.

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:23 am

dermotdermot wrote:One day, hopefully sooner rather than later, this blip on the political horizon that is Corbyn, will be just an distant unpleasant memory.

I'm not a Corbyn fan but when May hands Brexit over to BoJo, Davis, Fox, Gove and Jeremy Khunt is still in charge of health the country has more pressing problems.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:25 am

The argument would be that we need to follow due process and thereby undermine one line of Russia's denial. Why not do it? It draws a clear line between us and the Russians.

I think we are. But the idea that the Russians are going to go "Yep, its ours" are zero.

Staying up - I fully agree with you that Corbyn is hopeless on stuff like this, but surely even he doesn't think that Putins Russia is a socialist country?

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:31 am

I dont understand the issue. Please can someone explain to me exactly what Corbyn has said and why asking for a fair process to be followed is a bad thing.

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:37 am

Because it is a waste of time, Russia will not admit to being responsible even if we gave them a gallon of the stuff to analyse. We have called in an independent body to conduct an analysis, so I believe, and that should be sufficient. Will it be enough for Corbyn, or will he question those results, who knows. In the meantime even his senior shadow cabinet members are distancing themselves from his stance.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:42 am

That is it in a nutshell.

Corbyn achilles heel is anything to do with defence.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:48 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:That is it in a nutshell.

Corbyn achilles heel is anything to do with defence.

Yup. His stance on the mass murder and ethnic cleansing in Kosovo was to do nothing. There's no oil there, no US interests, no cynical big business conspiracy theories. Just vicious warlords wiping out almost helpless communities and he voted to do nowt.

Every now and again, appeasement ain't going to work.

Espia · Post by **Espia** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:33 am

You can form an opinion on this nerve gas thing but in absence of any personal knowledge of the facts you can't say for sure.

Blair once said "I can't tell you how I know, but believe me, there isn't a shadow of doubt that Sadam Hussain has got stock piles of weapons of mass destruction". (No shadow of a doubt is the same as saying that the evidence he had was 100% conclusive).

We all believed Blair because it basically boiled down to one question : Who do you trust ? Blair or Sadam ? Same goes this time round. Who do you trust the most .... May or Putin ? Majority of Brits will say May; Majority of Russians will say Putin .

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:39 am

Ah, but this is the difference here

- The WMD exists
- Its been used on UK citizens, on UK soil
- Its was manufactured in Russia, for the Russian military and the Russians still have stocks of it.

its not Iraq really is it?

Geoff · Post by **Geoff** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:44 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Ah, but this is the difference here

- The WMD exists
- Its been used on UK citizens, on UK soil
- Its was manufactured in Russia, for the Russian military and the Russians still have stocks of it.

its not Iraq really is it?

1. Is it a WMD?
2. Can't disagree on this point.
3. According to who? We also have stocks of nerve agent, a lot of it made under 10 miles away from this incident took place.

dermotdermot · Post by **dermotdermot** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:05 pm

piston broke wrote:I'm not a Corbyn fan but when May hands Brexit over to BoJo, Davis, Fox, Gove and Jeremy Khunt is still in charge of health the country has more pressing problems.

Indeed. And that’s why you need a credible opposition. Not this lying, anti Semitic, anti British, totalitarian, subversive waste of space. I never voted conservative in my life until the last election but did so then as a protest to the depths that the Labour Party has sunk under his leadership. I even voted for a big pansy called Conor Burns whose idol in life was Margaret Thatcher, that’s how strongly I feel about him.

LordBob · Post by **LordBob** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:09 pm

Espia wrote:You can form an opinion on this nerve gas thing but in absence of any personal knowledge of the facts you can't say for sure.

Blair once said "I can't tell you how I know, but believe me, there isn't a shadow of doubt that Sadam Hussain has got stock piles of weapons of mass destruction". (No shadow of a doubt is the same as saying that the evidence he had was 100% conclusive).

We all believed Blair because it basically boiled down to one question : Who do you trust ? Blair or Sadam ? Same goes this time round. Who do you trust the most .... May or Putin ? Majority of Brits will say May; Majority of Russians will say Putin .

Exactly ! !

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:21 pm

dermotdermot wrote:Indeed. And that’s why you need a credible opposition. Not this lying, anti Semitic, anti British, totalitarian, subversive waste of space. I never voted conservative in my life until the last election but did so then as a protest to the depths that the Labour Party has sunk under his leadership. I even voted for a big pansy called Conor Burns whose idol in life was Margaret Tharcher, that’s how strongly I feel about him.

Why don't you sit on the fence...!

One question...

Did you form your opinion on Corbyn from what he has actually said and done, or what he has reportedly said and done?

In the current world of media misrepresentation I think this question is valid.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:25 pm

I'd say it is Geoff and its a nerve agent made and invented in Russia. We are very unlikely to have stocks of a Russian made WMD anywhere I'd have thought.

I haven't a clue if the UK still has nerve agents or even chemical weapons anymore to be honest.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:29 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I haven't a clue if the UK still has nerve agents or even chemical weapons anymore to be honest.

We do, it would be nonsensical for us to not have them - even if it is for research into them and the effects and how to counter them.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:31 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote: I haven't a clue if the UK still has nerve agents or even chemical weapons anymore to be honest.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/the- ... orton-down" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Truth
Chemical and Biological Weapons
The UK’s chemical and biological weapons programme was closed down in the 1950s. Since then Porton Down has been active in developing effective countermeasures to the constantly evolving threat posed by chemical and biological weapons. To help develop effective medical countermeasures and to test systems, we produce very small quantities of chemical and biological agents. They are stored securely and disposed of safely when they are no longer required.

That would be after they poisoned a British Airman with Sarin resulting in his death.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:41 pm

You'd assume they would have small quantities of this then.

I think the word "stocks" is the wrong word here.

I think if it had come from Porton Down, someone would have found out by now.

Espia · Post by **Espia** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:58 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Ah, but this is the difference here

- The WMD exists
- Its been used on UK citizens, on UK soil
- Its was manufactured in Russia, for the Russian military and the Russians still have stocks of it.

its not Iraq really is it?

It's not Iraq , no, but it is about who you trust when you're not privvy to all the detail and the facts.

Porton Down has it also. Otherwise it couldn't verify what it was.

If a Russian citizen is told :-
- that Porton Down is only 8 miles from Salisbury;
- that the UK have this type of gas manufactured (their own admission by saying what it is);
- that May is a weak leader in Europe and that to suddenly become all Churchillian against the Russians helps build her popularity;
- that the Russians would not do this act because it would just be just traced back to them;
- that Russia has all sorts of enemies that would take this opportunity to discredit them;

Then who are they going to believe and trust ?

I also find it rather odd that the person (s) who administered it never became infected. Nor anyone who came in close contact with the couple, such as ambulance men, nurses, doctors, members of the public never got infected. Just the one person, the policeman, who is seriously ill .... and yet no one else is even just slightly ill. But then again , maybe they are and I haven't heard.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:24 pm

Espia, that is the Russian defence for everything though. Ukraine, Georgia, Crimea, Litvochenko

I'm sure they hospitalised other emergency service operatives, closed down a wing of Salisbury A & E, told 500 people to wash their clothes btw

You are effectively saying that Putin and the FSB are more trustworthy than May and M15 because of Iraq (which wasn't May, and wasn't M15)

*apologies if I get MI5 and Mi6 mixed up)

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:35 pm

The one thing I cant stop asking myself is "Why didn't the Russians just kill him when he was already in their prison system?"; then following on from that "Why now?"

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:40 pm

I take it the OP can't see the logic behind giving Russia as little scope as possible for denial. Russia almost certainly won't come clean, but by giving them a sample we remove their defence of "how do we know this is Novichok?" defence.

But i get it. Corbyn suggested it so lets all criticise it without thinking.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:45 pm

IT with the greatest respect, Russia would still say it wasn't Novichok that they produced.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:01 pm

Rick_Muller wrote:Why don't you sit on the fence...!Did you form your opinion on Corbyn from what he has actually said and done, or what he has reportedly said and done?

To be fair Rick, unless you follow him around listening and watching him first hand, we all go off 'reports' for everything we take in however diverse you try and make your sources. His voting record however is there to see.

Domestically, he's right on some things - I agree more often with him than May at least - but on foreign policy he's weak. Of course that's just my view, as one voter among 30 million so it's no biggie. But it's a fairly critical issue at crunch times and will always be targeted as a weakness for him. Being PM isn't the same as protesting from the back bench or campaigning for your local hospital and national security is a huge responsibility. I think he worries voters on this but we'll see.

Chobulous · Post by **Chobulous** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:01 pm

There's only a certain amount available from the crime scene I'm guessing. Maybe there isn't enough to pass around I don't know. What I do know is the we have asked an independent body to analyse what we do have with the results expected in 2-3 weeks.
If we had given a sample to Russia and if Russia could be trusted to actually be honest about the results how long do you think that would take. There would be no end of prevarication, obfuscation and messing about.

Lord Rothbury · Post by **Lord Rothbury** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:30 pm

Espia wrote:It's not Iraq , no, but it is about who you trust when you're not privvy to all the detail and the facts.

Porton Down has it also. Otherwise it couldn't verify what it was.

If a Russian citizen is told :-
- that Porton Down is only 8 miles from Salisbury;
- that the UK have this type of gas manufactured (their own admission by saying what it is);
- that May is a weak leader in Europe and that to suddenly become all Churchillian against the Russians helps build her popularity;
- that the Russians would not do this act because it would just be just traced back to them;
- that Russia has all sorts of enemies that would take this opportunity to discredit them;

Then who are they going to believe and trust ?

I also find it rather odd that the person (s) who administered it never became infected. Nor anyone who came in close contact with the couple, such as ambulance men, nurses, doctors, members of the public never got infected. Just the one person, the policeman, who is seriously ill .... and yet no one else is even just slightly ill. But then again , maybe they are and I haven't heard.

That is it ,forget Putin and Russia question the policeman .

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:35 pm

It amazes me that people actually think Russia did this , because our government never lies to its own people does it .

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:46 pm

Then you have to have a plausible explanation for it.

And there isn't one at the moment.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:52 pm

joey13 wrote:It amazes me that people actually think Russia did this , because our government never lies to its own people does it .

Sure. And Russia would never do anything like this. Right?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:54 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:IT with the greatest respect, Russia would still say it wasn't Novichok that they produced.

So? It still eliminates the accusation that we're not being open about it.It gives them less plausible deniability if we're seen to be willing to share our findings and materials.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:56 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Sure. And Russia would never do anything like this. Right?

In this instance, no I don’t think they have, all governments lie to their own people , Britain, Russia, USA the list is endless.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:57 pm

joey13 wrote:In this instance, no I don’t think they have, all governments lie to their own people , Britain, Russia, USA the list is endless.

What makes you think that this isn't Russia?

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:02 pm

I question it’s even happened, Russia don’t gain anything from this.Its not though it would affect the Russian election is it .

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:05 pm

joey13 wrote:I question it’s even happened, Russia don’t gain anything from this.Its not though it would affect the Russian election is it .

You think Russia testing the boundaries of what we'll put up with isn't something they would do? You don't think they're feeling emboldened byt their successes recently in America and the near zero retaliation? Russia have a long history of testing our boundaries.

And of course they gain somethign from this. They tell everyone that russian double-agents are safe nowhere.

joey13 · Post by **joey13** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:08 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:You think Russia testing the boundaries of what we'll put up with isn't something they would do? You don't think they're feeling emboldened byt their successes recently in America and the near zero retaliation? Russia have a long history of testing our boundaries.

And of course they gain somethign from this. They tell everyone that russian double-agents are safe nowhere.

Russian double agents don’t normally announce they are double agents it sort of blows their cover

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:13 pm

joey13 wrote:Russian double agents don’t normally announce they are double agents it sort of blows their cover

Then thank **** there's no other possible way for the FSB finding out then if they announce it.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:21 pm

FSB - "Yes Sergei, we find you guilty of treason and sentence you to 13 years in prison, BUT - we're going to let you go at some point in the future as a gesture of goodwill, just so that we can show the world that we can kill you anywhere and at anytime... and we shall send the binary nerve agent to you via your daughter too, that will be much easier than just killing you now, you know, whilst we have you in custody, to prove that we can kill double agents anywhere, anytime..."