O/T Madeleine McCann

[TVC15]

Circumstantial evidence indicates you are unwilling to use Google in this instance. Don't be lazy. If you're truly interested in the case and not just having a barney on here, do a bit of research.

Just post the links - you profess yourself to be an expert on the case so it should be a lot easier for you to post the appropriate links rather than others without your detailed investigative skills hunt round google.

Whilst you are at it can you please post the links for the moon landings (or lack of them) and any links you have for the cold blooded murder of Roger Rabbit.

[otto1959]

If only Svenster has been assigned the case. It’d have save the taxpayer millions and there’d be no need for this silly debate.

agree Would also like to find out if Beehole bellender has children. Come forward all those that haven't made mistakes with your children. I for one have let my kids wander around the beach while i read my paper. Lots could have gone wrong there.

[SammyBoy]

Just post the links - you profess yourself to be an expert on the case so it should be a lot easier for you to post the appropriate links rather than others without your detailed investigative skills hunt round google.

Whilst you are at it can you please post the links for the moon landings (or lack of them) and any links you have for the cold blooded murder of Roger Rabbit.

I couldn’t find any dirt on the McCann’s but I’ve cracked the Diana one.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b4meFC1ee7Q

[Svenster]

Just post the links - you profess yourself to be an expert on the case so it should be a lot easier for you to post the appropriate links rather than others without your detailed investigative skills hunt round google.

Whilst you are at it can you please post the links for the moon landings (or lack of them) and any links you have for the cold blooded murder of Roger Rabbit.

I don't profess to be anything of the sort. I just stated that there's a lot more to this affair than is generally publicized. Go and have a look if you're interested. It's not hard to find.

As for the ad hominem attack in your second sentence - well I think you just killed this discussion - if not the thread.

[SammyBoy]

I don't profess to be anything of the sort. I just stated that there's a lot more to this affair than is generally publicized. Go and have a look if you're interested. It's not hard to find.

As for the ad hominem attack in your second sentence - well I think you just killed this discussion - if not the thread.

I guess there's no point asking for your sources again, but your reluctance to provide anything to back up your opinion speaks volumes. I'll file this alongside my Grandma's insistence that Diana was murdered just because she doesn't like Prince Charles.

[Right_winger]

You've got to ask why a career PR expert got involved with the McCanns aswell.

Do you not think it's very odd that the initial cry was abduction, she could have wandered on her own accord as far as anyone is aware. Why Madeline and not the other 2?

Why the delay in alerting the authorities? All seems a bit suspect don't you think?

[TVC15]

I don't profess to be anything of the sort. I just stated that there's a lot more to this affair than is generally publicized. Go and have a look if you're interested. It's not hard to find.

As for the ad hominem attack in your second sentence - well I think you just killed this discussion - if not the thread.

You’ve mentioned enough times on this thread how you have taken a special interest in the case and how if we all dig under the surface or do more detailed research what we will find.

You are now taking the strange position of calling posters lazy for not doing the research themselves - instead of just posting the links which could prove that you are not talking utter sh-ite

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

In my opinion its more likely that the parents are involved, theres simply no evidence of Madeleine being kidnapped by a stranger.

I find it very strange that the British police terms of reference for this inquiry as excluded the possibility of the McCanns being involved. Never once have they 'officially' interviewed the McCanns. Why did Clarence Mitchell who was Gordon Brown's PR man at no.10 get involved in this case? it's a bit of a jump.

Kate McCann herself stated that the morning before Madeleine's disappearance (after they had been to the bar the night before), Madeleine came to her and said "Why didn't you come when we were crying last night?" What kind of heartless parents on hearing this information go out and do the exact same thing the same night? putting the three very young children in the same exact position. Why didn't the McCanns use the babysitting service at the resort?

Why are the McCanns using money raised by the general public to fight legal cases? Surely if they thought Madeleine was out there somewhere they would want every single penny to be used in the search for Madeleine.

I could go quite easily go on.

[SammyBoy]

In my opinion it's more likely there has been parental involvement than there is of Madeleine being kidnapped by a stranger.

I find it very strange that the British police terms of reference for this inquiry as excluded the possibility of the McCanns being involved. Never once have they 'officially' interviewed the McCanns. Why did Clarence Mitchell who was Gordon Brown's PR man at no.10 get involved in this case? it's a bit of a jump.

Kate McCann herself stated that the morning before Madeleine's disappearance (after they had been to the bar the night before), Madeleine came to her and said "Why didn't you come when we were crying last night?" What kind of heartless parents on hearing this information go out and do the exact same thing the same night? putting the three very young children in the same exact position. Why didn't the McCanns use the babysitting service at the resort?

Why are the McCanns using money raised by the general public to fight legal cases? Surely if they thought Madeleine was out there somewhere they would want every single penny to be used in the search for Madeleine.

I could go quite easily go on.

Why would Gordon Brown and his PR man have a stake in making sure the McCann's evade justice? Unless Gerry McCann has some photos of GB in an uncompromising position I can't think of any.

[TVC15]

You've got to ask why a career PR expert got involved with the McCanns aswell.

Do you not think it's very odd that the initial cry was abduction, she could have wandered on her own accord as far as anyone is aware. Why Madeline and not the other 2?

Why the delay in alerting the authorities? All seems a bit suspect don't you think?

Maybe they thought they needed a PR agent since the chief of police in the investigation decided to write a book full of lies ?

Where is the evidence she delayed in telling the authorities ? Genuine question as I don’t know - my understanding was after running downstairs hysterically to say she had been taken that they contacted the police.

You are saying that a hysterical mother screaming that her daughter had been taken is suspicious / unusual - it seems pretty normal to me.

[SammyBoy]

You are saying that a hysterical mother screaming that her daughter had been taken is suspicious / unusual - it seems pretty normal to me.

That'd probably be my first thought if I had a child that'd gone missing, as it's natural to think the worst. I wouldn't think perhaps she'd gone for a swift half at the hotel bar.

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

Why would Gordon Brown and his PR man have a stake in making sure the McCann's evade justice? Unless Gerry McCann has some photos of GB in an uncompromising position I can't think of any.

If a child dies in suspicious circumstances the first line of inquiry immediately is are the parents involved? Chances are in most cases they are involved. Why are the British police not able to pursue this part of the investigation? Their excuse is that that the information they have gathered from the Portuguese satisfies them that the parents are not involved. However the Portuguese have still not declared the parents innocent. The British authorities seem to pick and choose which parts of the Portuguese investigation they choose to believe.

[SammyBoy]

If a child dies in suspicious circumstances the first line of inquiry immediately is are the parents involved? Chances are in most cases they are involved. Why are the British police not able to pursue this part of the investigation? Their excuse is that that the information they have gathered from the Portuguese satisfies them that the parents are not involved. However the Portuguese have still not declared the parents innocent. The British authorities seem to pick and choose which parts of the Portuguese investigation they choose to believe.

I'm not well versed enough in legal police procedure to really comment, but my original question was about the motives of Gordon Brown's PR man?

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

I'm not well versed enough in legal police procedure to really comment, but my original question was about the motives of Gordon Brown's PR man?

Who knows? Who's paying his wages? he won't come cheap.

[SammyBoy]

Who knows? Who's paying his wages? he won't come cheap.

I'm more inclined to go with TVC15's view that it was probably to help them deal with the huge media storm and invasion of privacy at such a trying time, rather than to cover up wrongdoing (which would put the PR man at great personal risk in a legal sense). The British press are hardly known for their sensitivity or measured approach are they. Do you remember the Joanna Yeates case in which they pretty much decided the landlord had killed her because he had blue hair and was a bit of an eccentric?

[PutTheWheelieBinsOut]

Ask the dogs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5E6g6tUds4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SammyBoy]

https://news.sky.com/story/sniffer-dogs ... k-10488976

[Dejavu]

You’ve mentioned enough times on this thread how you have taken a special interest in the case and how if we all dig under the surface or do more detailed research what we will find.

You are now taking the strange position of calling posters lazy for not doing the research themselves - instead of just posting the links which could prove that you are not talking utter sh-ite

Here you go. Fill your boots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lurk_Zr8cdc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are literally hundreds of others however none seem to support the abduction theory for some strange reason!!

[Bop]

It’s an awfully sad case. I just wish we’d had a tv detective that could have solved the case, they always seem really good. My money would have been on Ironside, Quincy or Morse.

[TheFamilyCat]

A very strange case.

Seems incredible that a child can be taken from a busy holiday resort unseen. It would also seem like an unlikely stroke of luck that an abductor would happen across the McCann's apartment with its unattended children without trying other rooms first and arousing suspicion. Maybe hotel staff were involved and tipped off an abductor about which families were neglecting their kids.

But I don't really buy the "parents did it" theory.

So what other options are there?

[No Ney Never]

Sad as it is, there will be many on this message board who have gone through this experience, left in their chalets at Butlins/Pontins etc, while the parents had a hour+ to themselves, asking for a Patrol of complete strangers to listen for anything unusual through the chalet door and possessing a master key, perhaps a lesson to some people. Horrendous thing to carry for the rest of your life!!

Many an evening there would be announcements in the bars and theatres of a baby crying in chalet x row x. Was all perfectly acceptable for a number of decades.

[Rick_Muller]

Many an evening there would be announcements in the bars and theatres of a baby crying in chalet x row x. Was all perfectly acceptable for a number of decades.

I’m sorry, there’s nothing perfect about it being acceptable to neglect your children

[TheFamilyCat]

There's nothing acceptable about taking them to Butlin's either.

[whentheballmoves]

Hopefully, one day, the truth will out.

[Right_winger]

Maybe they thought they needed a PR agent since the chief of police in the investigation decided to write a book full of lies ?

Where is the evidence she delayed in telling the authorities ? Genuine question as I don’t know - my understanding was after running downstairs hysterically to say she had been taken that they contacted the police.

You are saying that a hysterical mother screaming that her daughter had been taken is suspicious / unusual - it seems pretty normal to me.

So what lies did the chief of police tell, please do enlighten us all. Do you take a managed media
Release via Clarence Mitchell as gospel over someone actually heavily involved in investigating the "claim" that Madeline was abducted?

[timshorts]

It’s an awfully sad case. I just wish we’d had a tv detective that could have solved the case, they always seem really good. My money would have been on Ironside, Quincy or Morse.

Quincy would be no good as he needs a corpse first. Morse is on the case already which is why it's going so slowly. Hes waiting for some opera connection and is no good with scousers.
Poirot would be the guy, but I'd rather it was Carey mulligan.

[TVC15]

So what lies did the chief of police tell, please do enlighten us all. Do you take a managed media
Release via Clarence Mitchell as gospel over someone actually heavily involved in investigating the "claim" that Madeline was abducted?

Do you know anything at all about the chief police and what he said ? He was sacked for his incompetence in the case and a series of blunders.

He was then done for libel in his book and ordered to pay compensation to McCanns only for the good old reliable Portuguese legal system to overturn the decision on appeal.

Take a look at what he said - if you think he is telling the truth then good for you. He wrote the book purely to earn cash.
Clarence Mitchell has been employed by the McCanns to deal with the intense pressure of the media - not aware of any lies he has told - are you ?

[TVC15]

I’m sorry, there’s nothing perfect about it being acceptable to neglect your children

Must be great to live in your perfect world Rick.
Just wondering when all this was going on in holiday camps across the country were you similarly outraged at this “neglect” ?

Why did the authorities do nothing to stop this epidemic level of neglect ? In fact why have they still done nothing to make this illegal ?

[Rick_Muller]

Must be great to live in your perfect world Rick.
Just wondering when all this was going on in holiday camps across the country were you similarly outraged at this “neglect” ?

Why did the authorities do nothing to stop this epidemic level of neglect ? In fact why have they still done nothing to make this illegal ?

Enlighten me as to when this occurred as a matter of course and I’ll tell you.

I’ve been a parent for 18 years now, and I can honestly say I would never leave my kids unattended in a holiday chalet; apartment; villa or the like while I go and get ******.

[TVC15]

I’ve been a parent 23 years and i’ve never left my children either but as I said previously I went to Butlins one unfortunate weekend and more people were leaving their children at night than not.

The post above about “baby crying in chalet number 9” is not a myth. It happened for many many years.

You can’t seriously think that the McCanns were (or are) the only parents to have done this. It will be happening in nearly every holiday resort in the UK and Europe this summer.

Again if it is gross neglect deserving of losing your child why is it not made illegal ?

[tim_noone]

It’s an awfully sad case. I just wish we’d had a tv detective that could have solved the case, they always seem really good. My money would have been on Ironside, Quincy or Morse.

Columbo scratch of his head draws on his cigar nails it for me...I always thought Ironside was a lawyer

[Bop]

Columbo scratch of his head draws on his cigar nails it for me...I always thought Ironside was a lawyer

Schoolboy error from me , meant Columbo. Smirk, puff on his cigar, shift his mac to one side, and mystery solved. If only eh!

[dsr]

Schoolboy error from me , meant Columbo. Smirk, puff on his cigar, shift his mac to one side, and mystery solved. If only eh!

Columbo cheated. The reason you never saw him in the first five minutes of the show was because he was sat in front of the TV, watching the murder being committed. That's how he always knew who did it.

[SalouClaret]

I'm really surprised that Mr and Mrs McCann still have custody of their other 2 children. If it was a chav couple from the stoops estate in Burnley who had left their children alone and one was abducted, it is highly likely they would have been charged and even served prison time.

As to the murder/abduction argument, we'll probably never find out what actually happened.

[dsr]

I'm really surprised that Mr and Mrs McCann still have custody of their other 2 children. If it was a chav couple from the stoops estate in Burnley who had left their children alone and one was abducted, it is highly likely they would have been charged and even served prison time.

I doubt it. Has it ever happened? None of the Moors Murderers victims' parents were ever prosecuted. Holly and Jessica's parents weren't prosecuted. There was a case a few years back where a girl was taken from a tent in her garden and the parents weren't prosecuted. I know that on my first trip to a hotel, I was in a bedroom on my own on the ground floor and my parents weren't prosecuted - and statistically children are safer now than then, at least as far as murder by strangers is concerned.

[SalouClaret]

I doubt it. Has it ever happened? None of the Moors Murderers victims' parents were ever prosecuted. Holly and Jessica's parents weren't prosecuted. There was a case a few years back where a girl was taken from a tent in her garden and the parents weren't prosecuted. I know that on my first trip to a hotel, I was in a bedroom on my own on the ground floor and my parents weren't prosecuted - and statistically children are safer now than then, at least as far as murder by strangers is concerned.

Not sure, although it's against the law to, and I quote, "leave your child alone if it places them at risk." Now to me it's pretty obvious she was at risk as she got bloody abducted.

[dsr]

Not sure, although it's against the law to, and I quote, "leave your child alone if it places them at risk." Now to me it's pretty obvious she was at risk as she got bloody abducted.

Yes, by that definition the parents of every single child that is abducted should be prosecuted. Not very helpful, frankly.

[SalouClaret]

dsr - it depends on the circumstances. If Mr and Mrs McCann were in the apartment at the time and not at a bar then Maddie wouldn't have been taken. They knowingly left her at risk, leaving a sliding outside door unlocked making it even more likely someone could get in.

It's not as though Kate and Gerry were asleep in the apartment themselves at the time and had no idea, or awoke and tried to fight off the abductor, then there would be no blame attached to them as there wouldn't have been any neglecting act.

They neglected their 3 children and should be charged.

[cricketfieldclarets]

I doubt it. Has it ever happened? None of the Moors Murderers victims' parents were ever prosecuted. Holly and Jessica's parents weren't prosecuted. There was a case a few years back where a girl was taken from a tent in her garden and the parents weren't prosecuted. I know that on my first trip to a hotel, I was in a bedroom on my own on the ground floor and my parents weren't prosecuted - and statistically children are safer now than then, at least as far as murder by strangers is concerned.

School holidays as kids - around 30 of us in a huge dormitory with no teachers (probably safer, given all the recent scandals) and 8 of the class outside in tents, again without teachers. Aged 10 years old!

Football trips away similar.

Its not as uncommon as people would think - even now!

[Rick_Muller]

School holidays as kids - around 30 of us in a huge dormitory with no teachers (probably safer, given all the recent scandals) and 8 of the class outside in tents, again without teachers. Aged 10 years old!

Football trips away similar.

Its not as uncommon as people would think - even now!

Would you leave 1 year old twins and a 3 year old in a tent on their own?

I thought not

[houseboy]

Isn't the entire British legal system based on the principle of innocent until proven guilty?

Yes, absolutely, but one can still have doubts. As we all know many criminals have escaped justice due to lack of proof and many innocent people have been jailed. Nothing is perfect and as I said it would be great if they could find out what really happened, but unfortunately in cases like this people will always make assumptions and have their own opinions.

[No Ney Never]

I’m sorry, there’s nothing perfect about it being acceptable to neglect your children

You're right that it isn't, only back then it wasn't seen as neglect, it was perfectly acceptable.

[houseboy]

I get how the law works cheers.

Maybe they were not charged because they did not murder their own daughter ? Just a wild crazy theory you know.

So far on this thread we have had comments like it was a busy complex ; probably manned by security guards ; the children were drugged ; blood in the car boot etc etc

Given all the potential lines of enquiries, witnesses and potential evidence etc that just this thread alone is pointing to you think there would be plenty of opportunity to find some proof.....or possibly the McCann`s are master criminals who planned all of this and covered every single track ? And then in Hollywood psychological thriller type of way they have spent more than 10 years pretending they are looking for their daughter and not once letting their guard down with the police or media and making a mistake. And in true Hollywood style one day they will make a mistake and we'll find out they killed their daughter, kidnapped Lord Lucan and Shergar is buried in their garden.

Or it could be the far fetched answer that they did not do it and someone took their daughter ?

Everyone on here, including you, is basing their own argument on no information whatsoever. I've said that my OPINION could well be wrong and I would be happy if it was and I am not going into the whole cover-up conspiracy thing because I don't believe it. ANY unsolved crime/incident makes people discuss it and people will come to their own conclusions, right or wrong, but to scoff as you do at people who, due to what they have personally seen and read, have come to the opinion that they are involved is wrong because you have no evidence whatsoever that they are innocent. We are all stabbing in the dark here and all opinions should be respected.

[Rick_Muller]

You're right that it isn't, only back then it wasn't seen as neglect, it was perfectly acceptable.

Yeah, back then it was acceptable for Jimmy Savile to have unescorted access to a children’s ward, doesn’t make it right

[SammyBoy]

Everyone on here, including you, is basing their own argument on no information whatsoever. I've said that my OPINION could well be wrong and I would be happy if it was and I am not going into the whole cover-up conspiracy thing because I don't believe it. ANY unsolved crime/incident makes people discuss it and people will come to their own conclusions, right or wrong, but to scoff as you do at people who, due to what they have personally seen and read, have come to the opinion that they are involved is wrong because you have no evidence whatsoever that they are innocent. We are all stabbing in the dark here and all opinions should be respected.

The difference is that a key point of mine and TVC15's argument is that the McCann's have not been found guilty of any wrongdoing by either the Portuguese or British police, that's a fact not conjecture, and their investigation will have been based on more than online hearsay and rumour.

[TVC15]

Yeah, back then it was acceptable for Jimmy Savile to have unescorted access to a children’s ward, doesn’t make it right

Just a matter of time before you used the Saville top trump card.

So do you think the parents who left their children to the unescorted Saville access were guilty of neglect ? Did they deserve for their children to be abused ?

[AlargeClaret]

As a matter of interest was Savile truly given unfettered and unescorted access to children’s awards? I presumed the vast bulk is JS’s abuse was opportunistic and spread over a v long career. Though I don’t doubt he used his “Porter” status with a brazen glee , I can never quite see him wandering alone around kids wards abusing at will.

Still..that’s not the point here , back to the public lynching of 2 devoted yet very careless and slightly aloof parents whom not one scintilla of evidence was found against them . Even the circumstantial “evidence “ is twisted overstretched and ludicrous. There’s a devoted site to it which resembles a tin foil hat manufacturing facility .

[AlargeClaret]

Wards not “awards” ( an even worse thought!)

[Sidney1st]

Just a matter of time before you used the Saville top trump card.

So do you think the parents who left their children to the unescorted Saville access were guilty of neglect ? Did they deserve for their children to be abused ?

No and No.

The hospitals should however be taken to task and employees at the time too.

[ClaretDiver]

Why do they still refuse to take a lie detector test??? Just asking!