Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

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ClaretMoffitt
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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by ClaretMoffitt » Thu May 17, 2018 7:48 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:You said it yourself moffit, the key figure that people care about is that net migration figure. It really is the main issue for a lot of people.

It's a shame these people can't get as worked up over figures like local councils losing nearly 50% of their budgets over the last 8 years, or having 21,000 less police officers under this government.

It's easy to accuse people of just hating foreigners when that's pretty much all they demonstrate.
So I suppose the best way to counteract these constraints on public services is to import 350,000 people a year to make their jobs even harder. That'll show the bigots, aye?

Question, do you think the budgets will actually rise to accommodate all these new comers if we maintain or even grow that figure? Do you think a Labour government, who will not only allow FMOP but also probably untold amounts of refugees (who really do cost money to sort out because their skills and cultural vales are so different) will be a shining beacon for the working class?

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Thu May 17, 2018 8:03 am

A Labour Government will only be a shining beacon if it dispenses with the last Labour government’s ideas and gives a strong message that crucial non-degree professions like (some) engineering jobs, plumbing, building etc are just as valuable.

In other words moving away from the meritocracy that Blair brought in, and simultaneously making those people believe that they culturally and socially fit in (i.e. not feeling that their often blunt, opinionated, direct nature has no place in a modern, Latte drinking society).

Shameful in the extreme that it was Labour who made these types of people feel like they do today, resulting in lost entry to the professions and the need for high prices and Eastern European migrants to fill the gaps.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu May 17, 2018 8:27 am

SmudgetheClaret wrote:You don’t recall or won’t recall Turtle ? so Osbourne didn’t say we would lose the 800k or so jobs and it wasn’t mentioned that planes might be grounded ? come on at least be honest and as for attacking if losing an argument which I’m not by the way I’ve read some of your stuff and you have a brass neck saying that !!
No one really knows how many jobs will be lost. Claiming 800,000 was not wise.
Jobs will undoubtedly be lost with no deal, since some companies have already made plans to relocate to the EU if there's no deal, but until we've been left for a few years it's hard to predict the scale. (It will most likely be more severe in the regions).
With regards to planes: they will be grounded if there's no deal as we will be out of the EU Open Skies agreement, but it won't come to that.
Everyone on both sides - apart from a few deluded brexiteers - has known from day one that there will have to be a whole series of deals.
The difficulty has always been that it's really difficult to extract an egg from an omelette.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by Bacchus » Thu May 17, 2018 8:29 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:And REMAIN said we'd be leaving the single market

Here's the prime minister saying it on various occasions. Along with the chancellor

https://youtu.be/9fDn0MvcHQ4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is Andrew Neild reminding a flustered Nick Clegg that he said we'd be leaving the single market.

https://youtu.be/PJt3bEA_ylg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So everybody should have taken their views on what Leave meant from the Remain campaign because the Leave campaign was obviously lying and campaigning for something entirely different to what they wanted to happen? This being despite the fact that the Leave campaign continually accused the Remain campaign of lying and enacting Project Fear?

Yes, all clear now. It's obvious that everybody should have been fully appraised of what leaving entailed and that in no way could there have been a whole range of different possible outcomes. Definitely a binary issue, as you said.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 8:38 am

Bacchus wrote:So everybody should have taken their views on what Leave meant from the Remain campaign because the Leave campaign was obviously lying and campaigning for something entirely different to what they wanted to happen? This being despite the fact that the Leave campaign continually accused the Remain campaign of lying and enacting Project Fear?

Yes, all clear now. It's obvious that everybody should have been fully appraised of what leaving entailed and that in no way could there have been a whole range of different possible outcomes. Definitely a binary issue, as you said.
Binary when it came to the result.

There was the winning side. And the losing side.

You belong to the latter. Condlenseces.....

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by martin_p » Thu May 17, 2018 8:45 am

aggi wrote:Nope, absolutely no reference in that as to who was putting the manifesto promise into law.
Leave it aggi. Ringo clearly has issues understanding the English language, which is what causes most of his problems, namely:

- being unable to write down what he actually means, causing him to cry ‘pedant’ when it’s pointed out he’s wrong because that’s not what he meant and that should be obvious to everyone
- not understanding what he’s being told, causing him to claim people are saying things they aren’t.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu May 17, 2018 8:48 am

One of my favourites this is to watch someone celebrating because they think they're on the winning side only to watch as they're the ones who get ****** over. Yes, I'll be ****** over too, but when people like Ringo are stood beside me wondering where all our services, jobs and government revenue went while immigration remains as it was, it will at least make me laugh.

The analogy someone posted earlier was perfect, they're celebrating winning a pile of ****.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by Bacchus » Thu May 17, 2018 8:55 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Binary when it came to the result.

There was the winning side. And the losing side.

You belong to the latter. Condlenseces.....
My condolences to you on clearly not having an argument of any substance and having to resort to calling people losers. We'll all be losers on this, btw, despite what you might think.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 10:20 am

Bacchus wrote:My condolences to you on clearly not having an argument of any substance and having to resort to calling people losers. We'll all be losers on this, btw, despite what you might think.

I'd didn't call anybody a loser. I said you were on the losing side. If you don't know the difference your not helping your argument. So if the cap fits.....

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 10:23 am

martin_p wrote:Leave it aggi. Ringo clearly has issues understanding the English language, which is what causes most of his problems, namely:

- being unable to write down what he actually means, causing him to cry ‘pedant’ when it’s pointed out he’s wrong because that’s not what he meant and that should be obvious to everyone
- not understanding what he’s being told, causing him to claim people are saying things they aren’t.

Welcome back Marty! Now could you kindly answer my question?

Should number 2 ever happen in a democracy?

Namely

One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, is allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election.

Should that happen? You claimed that "nobody's saying that" but should it happen?
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Thu May 17, 2018 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by Spijed » Thu May 17, 2018 10:31 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Welcome back Marty! Now could you kindly answer my question?

Should number 2 ever happen in a democracy?

Namely

One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, is allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election.

Should that happen?
If a party gains the most number of seats but doesn't gain an overall majority it is asked to form a government. If it cannot do so then the so-called 'losing' side would be asked to try to form a government.

What's wrong with that in a democracy?

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 10:36 am

aggi wrote:Nope, absolutely no reference in that as to who was putting the manifesto promise into law.
I said that only the winning parties manifesto is enacted in to law and legislation.


The parliamentary information website backs me up.

"The political party that wins then forms the government, and bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto"

https://www.parliament.uk/education/abo ... -are-made/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The losing parties manifestos are binned.

Labour campaigned on a manifesto of scrapping tuition fees. They lost. Their manifestos has been binned. Now the Tories have said they'll look at tuition fees. If they subsequently scrap tuition fees in order to gain popularity with younger voters. It is NOT THE LABOUR PARTIES MANIFESTO being enacted and put into law and legislation. THEY LOST.

IT'S THE TORIES BEING POLITICAL OPPORTUNISTS.!!!!

Or are you still insisting on claiming aggi knows more about parliamentary democracy and the constitution, than the official parliamentary information website!!!!!!?

The whole point of my analogy was to point out Leave won the referendum. And on a binary in or out decision, the losing sides argument is binned.
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Thu May 17, 2018 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 10:38 am

Spijed wrote:If a party gains the most number of seats but doesn't gain an overall majority it is asked to form a government. If it cannot do so then the so-called 'losing' side would be asked to try to form a government.

What's wrong with that in a democracy?
Nothing.

I did say earlier not including a coalition. You can go back up this thread to see where I said it. (Post 51 in my reply to nil desperandum.)

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 10:49 am

martin_p wrote:Number 1 is exactly what I said, the Tories taking a Lib Dem manifesto promise and enacting it.

No one is claiming number 2 has happened.
This is where you said it Marty!

This is where you said nobody was claiming number 2 has happened.

Which is-

One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, is allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election.

If this was to happen or it's equivalence in a binary referendum. Would that be democratic Marty?

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by Chip Harrison » Thu May 17, 2018 11:21 am

I've asked 10 people at work did they know exactly what a leave vote meant, and not one said they fully understood the ramifications of leaving. So I asked if they voted leave, why did they do so. 4 of the ten actually said we needed to change things. When asked what we needed to change, they wanted less immigration and more spending on the NHS.
I voted leave, but I wish I hadn't now.

Can I ask Ringo for 5 bullet points on what will improve when we leave, just out of interest? But please don't include the NHS or lower immigration.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 11:53 am

Chip Harrison wrote:I've asked 10 people at work did they know exactly what a leave vote meant, and not one said they fully understood the ramifications of leaving. So I asked if they voted leave, why did they do so. 4 of the ten actually said we needed to change things. When asked what we needed to change, they wanted less immigration and more spending on the NHS.
I voted leave, but I wish I hadn't now.

Can I ask Ringo for 5 bullet points on what will improve when we leave, just out of interest? But please don't include the NHS or lower immigration.
By not including the NHS and immigration you're starting off on a slight "what did the Romans ever do for us? Apart from......"

However.

1, the ability to strike trade deals independently.

2. The primacy of British law

3. The removal of a whole layer of politicians. The fewer the better.

4. No longer being part of the Common Agricultural Policy which inflates shopping bills for the poorest. Excludes developing countries farmers from entering the market. And rewards the likes of Michael Heseltine £90000 per year for keeping some of his many acres unproductive.

5. The financial bonus of no longer being net contributors , in billions of pounds, to the EU budget.

6. Leaving an organisation that has the goal of ever closer union, enshrined in its constitution.

You asked for 5 but hey.....

If it be your will
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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by If it be your will » Thu May 17, 2018 12:05 pm

.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by martin_p » Thu May 17, 2018 12:08 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:This is where you said it Marty!

This is where you said nobody was claiming number 2 has happened.

Which is-

One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, is allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election.

If this was to happen or it's equivalence in a binary referendum. Would that be democratic Marty?
If you can point out where someone has claimed it has happened on this thread then I’ll happily respond.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 12:13 pm

martin_p wrote:If you can point out where someone has claimed it has happened on this thread then I’ll happily respond.
HahaHaha hahaha. Now the swerving commences!

If One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election. Would that be democratic.?

It's a simple yes or no Marty!

https://www.parliament.uk/education/abo ... -are-made/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The political party that wins then forms the government, and bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto"

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by martin_p » Thu May 17, 2018 12:22 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:HahaHaha hahaha. Now the swerving commences!

If One of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election. Would that be democratic.?

It's a simple yes or no Marty!

https://www.parliament.uk/education/abo ... -are-made/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The political party that wins then forms the government, and bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto"
Ok, a simple yes or no for a simple man. No.

Come on now Ringo, use that against me!

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by UpTheBeehole » Thu May 17, 2018 12:29 pm

He has you pr*ck

Edit:


Ringo has deleted his embarrassing post.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by martin_p » Thu May 17, 2018 12:33 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:He has you pr*ck

Edit:


Ringo has deleted his embarrassing post.
I think you meant Ringo has deleted ONE OF his embarrassing posts.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 12:34 pm

martin_p wrote:Ok, a simple yes or no for a simple man. No.

Come on now Ringo, use that against me!
So if, If one of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election. Is not democratic as you agree. Finally.

How is it democratic or possible, for the losing sides whole single argument (Their manifesto if you like) in the referendum. Remain in the European Union. To be included in the process of Leaving.

In a single issue referendum you cannot leave while attempting to Remain. It's both impossible and undemocratic.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 12:36 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:He has you pr*ck

Edit:


Ringo has deleted his embarrassing post.

Not quick enough you idiot!

Get out of bed earlier. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu May 17, 2018 12:37 pm

So you've deleted a post, rather than admitting you might be wrong?

You've reached peak Brexity there Ringo
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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by Bordeauxclaret » Thu May 17, 2018 12:38 pm

Not to take away from the excellent edition of Ringo Dingo.

Someone with a great imagination posted the following on Twitter based on Boris

He went up to Oxford with a thirst for knowledge
He studied Classics at Balliol College
That's why I
Caught his eye

He told me that his dad was loaded
I said "I wish I'd known that before I voted"
He said "Fine"
And in thirty years' time
He said

"I want the votes of gammon people
I want to do whatever gammon people do
I want to sleep with gammmon people
I want to sleep with gammon people like you"

Well, what else could I do?
I voted to leave the EU

He took me out of the Single Market
I don't know why but he had to start it
Somewhere
So he started there

I said "What happened to all the NHS money?"
He just laughed and said "Oh you're so funny"
I said "Yeah?
Well, I can still see foreigners over here"

Are you sure you want to live like gammon people?
You want to see whatever gammon people see
You want to sleep with gammon people
You want to sleep with gammon people like me

But he didn't understand
He just smiled and waved his hand

Buy a flat on the Costa del Sol
Don't learn to speak in Español
Smoke some fags and drink some beer
Pretend you always lived round here

But still you'll never get it right
Cause when you're laid in bed at night
Watching your pension value fall
If he cancelled A50 he could stop it all

You'll never live like gammon people
You'll never do whatever gammon people do
You'll never fail like gammon people
You'll never watch your life slide out of view
And drink and blame the EU
Because there's nothing else to do

String along the gammon people
String them along it might just get you through
Laugh along with the gammon people
Laugh along even though they're laughing at you
And the stupid things that you do
Because you think that poor is cool
Last edited by Bordeauxclaret on Thu May 17, 2018 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 12:40 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:So you've deleted a post, rather than admitting you might be wrong?

You've reached peak Brexity there Ringo
Absolutely incorrect Lancs.

I reread what Marty had put and my original reply would have been irrelevant. Not wrong. But irrelevant. Thanks for your input. But it's you who's wrong. Poor effort.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by martin_p » Thu May 17, 2018 12:43 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:So if, If one of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election. Is not democratic as you agree. Finally.

How is it democratic or possible, for the losing sides whole single argument (Their manifesto if you like) in the referendum. Remain in the European Union. To be included in the process of Leaving.

In a single issue referendum you cannot leave while attempting to Remain. It's both impossible and undemocratic.
There’s a very simple answer to that. The Parliamentary procedures you bang on about apply to the formation and running of a government, not a referendum. The government can, quite legally, ignore the results of this referendum if it wants. Whether it should do or not is a different matter, but it’s quite valid for those who think this is leading to disaster to try and convince the government to do so.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu May 17, 2018 12:45 pm

I haven't seen the post Ringo so I apologise.

Keep on going mate, this is one of your best efforts yet.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by martin_p » Thu May 17, 2018 12:51 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:So if, If one of the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election. Is not democratic as you agree. Finally.

How is it democratic or possible, for the losing sides whole single argument (Their manifesto if you like) in the referendum. Remain in the European Union. To be included in the process of Leaving.

In a single issue referendum you cannot leave while attempting to Remain. It's both impossible and undemocratic.
And further to what I’ve posted above there isn’t even anything that mandates a government has to carry out its manifesto promises. Once it’s in power it’s quite at liberty to tear up every single promise and do what it wants.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu May 17, 2018 1:08 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:So you've deleted a post, rather than admitting you might be wrong?

You've reached peak Brexity there Ringo
Sounds like he made a rash decision and then changed his mind.

Its a shame he keeps portraying the rest of us doing that as being undemocratic.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 1:11 pm

martin_p wrote:There’s a very simple answer to that. The Parliamentary procedures you bang on about apply to the formation and running of a government, not a referendum. The government can, quite legally, ignore the results of this referendum if it wants. Whether it should do or not is a different matter, but it’s quite valid for those who think this is leading to disaster to try and convince the government to do so.
So to hell with established 100s of years democratic norms and in Marty's world the losing side wins!

Because the doom mongers say were all going to hell in a hand cart! But we haven't have we Marty! That was the whole point of this thread!

BRING OUT YER DEAD AGAIN! BRING OUT YER DEAD! F*** DEMOCRACY! JUST BRING OUT YER DEAD! FORGET PARLIAMENTARY CONVENTION! BRING OUT YER DEAD!

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by UpTheBeehole » Thu May 17, 2018 1:13 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:So you've deleted a post, rather than admitting you might be wrong?
This is exactly what he did, whatever he says.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 1:14 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I haven't seen the post Ringo so I apologise.

Keep on going mate, this is one of your best efforts yet.
While your here Lancs. Your a LibDem. Can you tell me how many of their manifesto pledges Vince cable has put through parliament since you lot lost the general election. Here's a bit of reference before you answer.

The political party that wins then forms the government, and bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto
https://www.parliament.uk/education/abo ... -are-made/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please don't get confused with Political opportunism and what would be a clear breach of parliamentary convention. Aggi did.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 1:15 pm

UpTheBeehole wrote:This is exactly what he did, whatever he says.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by bfcjg » Thu May 17, 2018 1:17 pm

Getting somewhere near the OP it would appear now as though the Italian government will be on a massive collision course with the EU and if the fourth largest economy pulls out what then ? Obviously they didn't let the anti UK stance from Brussels put them off.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 1:31 pm

martin_p wrote:And further to what I’ve posted above there isn’t even anything that mandates a government has to carry out its manifesto promises. Once it’s in power it’s quite at liberty to tear up every single promise and do what it wants.

Despite admitting that it would not be democratic if the losing parties is, despite going against 100s of years of recognised parliamentary procedure, is allowed to enact part of its manifesto. Despite not winning the general election. But its ok for the losing side argument in a referendum to prevail!!!

Not only are you undemocratic. But you believe in the impossible is achievable even if it means Democracy is thwarted!

Explain how it's possible to Leave the EU and it's associated bodies and while partly remaining so as to appease the losing sides view?

Do you ever get to any home games Marty? Cos if you try and leave you're clearly not going to resist staying!!

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by martin_p » Thu May 17, 2018 1:31 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:So to hell with established 100s of years democratic norms and in Marty's world the losing side wins!

Because the doom mongers say were all going to hell in a hand cart! But we haven't have we Marty! That was the whole point of this thread!

BRING OUT YER DEAD AGAIN! BRING OUT YER DEAD! F*** DEMOCRACY! JUST BRING OUT YER DEAD! FORGET PARLIAMENTARY CONVENTION! BRING OUT YER DEAD!
Is it any wonder people don’t engage in debate with you and resort to insults. You either haven’t read a word I wrote, didn’t understand it or are standing there with your fingers in your ears shouting ‘LA LA LA’ because you don’t want to here things that challenge your view. Come on Ringo, have a go at telling me which of my points are wrong. Do the rules of forming and running a government apply to a referendum? Was the referendum legally binding? Do parties stick rigidly to their manifesto promises? Have a go at debating and stop acting like a three year old.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu May 17, 2018 1:42 pm

But I don't see it like you do Ringo.

Lib Dem policies get hijacked by the other parties and then treated as their own. As a Lib Dem, I'm just glad they are being used.

The personal allowance one that all of us use is a Lib Dem policy. We should all be glad that its in there.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 1:49 pm

martin_p wrote:Is it any wonder people don’t engage in debate with you and resort to insults. You either haven’t read a word I wrote, didn’t understand it or are standing there with your fingers in your ears shouting ‘LA LA LA’ because you don’t want to here things that challenge your view. Come on Ringo, have a go at telling me which of my points are wrong. Do the rules of forming and running a government apply to a referendum? Was the referendum legally binding? Do parties stick rigidly to their manifesto promises? Have a go at debating and stop acting like a three year old.

Do the rules of forming and running a government apply to a referendum? You say no.

This is what Keighley claret said way back at the start of this thread.

"Rubbish. Democracy is about expressing an opinion. Parties which lose an election still campaign for the next opportunity. Remainers have every right to make their case and every right to campaign for the opportunity to reverse the Democratic decision made 2 years ago, "

I pointed out that it's not like a general election. They're on a 5 yearly basis. The referendum was a once in a generation event according to the government. That was the basis on Which it was fought.

And you're agreeing witb me that referendum are different. But the principle of the majority viewpoint winning is the same democratic principle.

I then said that in an election the winning parties manifesto is enacted in to law and legislation.

The losing parties take their manifestos and bin them.

How, in single issue referendum can both sides win. And if as Keighley claret implies were into a neverendum situation. In a general election it's all to play for 5 years hence. So there is some point of continuing to debate. It's all to play for. A referendums a one off.

Without realising Marty you're agreeing witb me and proving my point.
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Thu May 17, 2018 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 1:50 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:But I don't see it like you do Ringo.

Lib Dem policies get hijacked by the other parties and then treated as their own. As a Lib Dem, I'm just glad they are being used.

The personal allowance one that all of us use is a Lib Dem policy. We should all be glad that its in there.
Stop swerving. How many manifesto pledges has Vince cable put through. Given he's the leader of a losing party?
For get hijacking!
https://www.parliament.uk/education/abo ... -are-made/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You don't "want to see it like me" cos you know I'm right.

How many lancs?

"The political party that wins then forms the government, and bases its legislative agenda on its election manifesto"
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Thu May 17, 2018 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu May 17, 2018 1:52 pm

You can't call people out for not answering the question Ringo!

In the nicest possible way, you just can't.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by Damo » Thu May 17, 2018 1:57 pm

JohnMcGreal wrote:You said it yourself moffit, the key figure that people care about is that net migration figure. It really is the main issue for a lot of people.

It's a shame these people can't get as worked up over figures like local councils losing nearly 50% of their budgets over the last 8 years, or having 21,000 less police officers under this government. That doesn't seem to matter. They will even go out in droves to vote for more of that.

It's easy to accuse people of just hating foreigners when that's pretty much all they demonstrate.
Yes. The police cuts

Meanwhile they are offering 29k per year for somebody to send tweets
https://www.met.police.uk/careers-at-th ... -overview/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by martin_p » Thu May 17, 2018 2:03 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote: And you're agreeing witb me that referendum are different. But the principle of the majority viewpoint winning is the same democratic principle.

I then said that in an election the winning parties manifesto is enacted in to law and legislation.

The losing parties take their manifestos and bin them.
And this is the point where your logic fails. There isn’t an entity that won the referendum. It was a viewpoint supported or rejected across party lines. This is where it totally differs from an election where a party campaigns with a manifesto and if it wins forms a government and can enact its manifesto if it wants to.

Leave won the referendum but Leave are not in government which is not bound by the Leave arguments (such that anyone can define them). In fact the majority of the government supported Remain in the referendum.

So it’s not a case of ‘Leave won so it gets to enact its manifesto’. The referendum indicated what the electorate (or at least those who voted) want the government to do, but the government is still at liberty to do what it wants. It’s therefore valid for people to campaign for the referendum to be ignored

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 2:15 pm

martin_p wrote:And this is the point where your logic fails. There isn’t an entity that won the referendum. It was a viewpoint supported or rejected across party lines. This is where it totally differs from an election where a party campaigns with a manifesto and if it wins forms a government and can enact its manifesto if it wants to.

Leave won the referendum but Leave are not in government which is not bound by the Leave arguments (such that anyone can define them). In fact the majority of the government supported Remain in the referendum.

So it’s not a case of ‘Leave won so it gets to enact its manifesto’. The referendum indicated what the electorate (or at least those who voted) want the government to do, but the government is still at liberty to do what it wants. It’s therefore valid for people to campaign for the decision to be ignored
Parlimant voted by a ratio of 5 to 1 to give the decision to leave the EU and it's associated bodies to the People.

The people have decided. In the biggest single expression of democracy the UK has witnessed.

Now if you want that democratic event to be over turned or ignored you have to realise that unlike a general election. You won't be given the opportunity to do so any time soon. Because that was the basis on which it was fought.

"There will be no 2nd referendum. This is it. Final. A once in a generation chance to shape the future of our country"
David Cameron June 2016.

Now if you wish to believe the same lies and fear mongering by the very same people who tried to convince us that not joining the single currency would lead us to "economic iscolation" be a "back water" be "left out in the mid Atlantic somewhere" Then that's your prerogative. Me personally, I'd prefer to share the same view as the vast majority of the People now (Which includes many remain voters) that the country voted to Leave. And that's what we shpukd be doing without any further frustration from people who simply can't and won't accept the democratic result. And instead seem to relish witb some zeal, the prospect of never ending whining about a result they lost.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu May 17, 2018 2:16 pm

I will forgive no one who does not respect the sovereign voice of the British people once it has spoken whether it is a majority of one per cent or 20 per cent.

When the British people have spoken you do what they command. Either you believe in democracy or you don’t.

PADDY ASHDOWN 22nd June 2016. Before his side lost.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu May 17, 2018 2:20 pm

But that isn't what is happening though Ringo.

it is if you believe what you believe, but that is restricted to the uber-leavers. They know they argument is completely flawed, so they argue vehemently that democracy is threatened.

Because they are arguing so vehemently, and with so little factual basis and repeating blatant lies, they are actually pushing this away from "Leave, but with caveats" to people actually talking about cancelling the whole thing.

Until the uber Brexiteers realise that the UKIP leave version is less than 10% (and a lot lower now) of the population, then the danger is of your vision of the future being completely derailed.

We will leave, but not if the arguments continue down the route it has been taken in the past two years.

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by martin_p » Thu May 17, 2018 2:22 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:I will forgive no one who does not respect the sovereign voice of the British people once it has spoken whether it is a majority of one per cent or 20 per cent.

When the British people have spoken you do what they command. Either you believe in democracy or you don’t.

PADDY ASHDOWN 22nd June 2016. Before his side lost.
Yes, but this is not the point you were disputing when this whole thing started! Someone was saying that in a democratic society those that believe we should remain in the EU should have every right to campaign to overturn the referendum result. You’ve basically said ‘Leave won, everyone should now shut up, it’s the law!’ I’m sure Paddy Ashdown would vigorously defend the right of people to overturn the result even if he thinks it shouldn’t happen

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by quoonbeatz » Thu May 17, 2018 3:08 pm

ne'er since the dawn of time hath so many sought to educate one so thick, with such futility.
These 5 users liked this post: Bordeauxclaret Bacchus Greenmile nil_desperandum Claret-On-A-T-Rex

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Re: Project fear aka pure political fantasy..

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu May 17, 2018 3:18 pm

Damo wrote:Yes. The police cuts

Meanwhile they are offering 29k per year for somebody to send tweets
https://www.met.police.uk/careers-at-th ... -overview/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Such ignorance.

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