Who is the bigger club?

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 2:37 pm

There's no answer to this, which is my point.

I was chatting to someone yesterday who is a Sheffield Weds fan and a Bradford fan - he has a season ticket with both. Anyway, we got onto the subject of Burnley and he said both Sheffield Weds and Bradford were bigger clubs than Burnley. He admitted Burnley were better, but not bigger.

I asked, what defines 'bigger' - and all he could come up with was, "Ask 10 people in here who's the bigger club" - my reply was, "but that's opinion based, not a fact". He kept coming around to the "Yeah, but ask anybody else in here" - which I reminded him was down to opinion.

So, is there any actual algorithm that determines club A is 'bigger' than club B? I don't think there is. Surely it's down to the individual on how big they see the club? Better can be determined by the league table, but there is no table for who is the bigger club.

Diesel · Post by **Diesel** » Sun May 20, 2018 2:39 pm

Did you tell them you were faster than Ronaldo?

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Sun May 20, 2018 2:40 pm

I base my opinions on size of away support. The ones that would sell out anywhere in the country on a Monday night are the big ones.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 2:42 pm

Diesel wrote:Did you tell them you were faster than Ronaldo?

Yep. But then I told him he's a soft two hat and will be taxed more than last year.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 2:44 pm

Quickenthetempo wrote:I base my opinions on size of away support. The ones that would sell out anywhere in the country on a Monday night are the big ones.

Interesting. I think there's a lot of variables - cups won, history, size of ground, but there's still no definitive measurement to rank a club.

DustyBawls · Post by **DustyBawls** » Sun May 20, 2018 2:50 pm

Id say some are obvious like Man United are bigger than Wrexham but I see your point. But Id class as both of the teams as smaller than Burnley due to recent history.

yTib · Post by **yTib** » Sun May 20, 2018 2:56 pm

bradford's record attendance - 39,146 vs little burnley.

i live in bradford and the biggest club in the city is leeds.

Alanstevensonsgloves · Post by **Alanstevensonsgloves** » Sun May 20, 2018 3:05 pm

yTib wrote:bradford's record attendance - 39,146 vs little burnley.

i live in bradford and the biggest club in the city is leeds.

You missed out on a john lennonesque reply there..
"Bradford City are not even the biggest team in Bradford!"

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 3:06 pm

yTib wrote:bradford's record attendance - 39,146 vs little burnley.
i live in bradford and the biggest club in the city is leeds.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 3:07 pm

Alanstevensonsgloves wrote:You missed out on a john lennonesque reply there..
"Bradford City are not even the biggest team in Bradford!"

Was that about Liverpool? Referring to Liverpool and Liverpool reserves? Although John Parrot has mentioned Everton and Everton reserves, so who knows.

bob-the-scutter · Post by **bob-the-scutter** » Sun May 20, 2018 3:30 pm

FactualFrank wrote:Was that about Liverpool? Referring to Liverpool and Liverpool reserves? Although John Parrot has mentioned Everton and Everton reserves, so who knows.

No, it`s about Ringo!

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sun May 20, 2018 4:46 pm

I've seen a Boro fan having a similar argument with a Burnley fan on social media.

Boro fan was trying to ignore our title successes and moving the goalposts around to suit himself.

He was basing it on the quality of their stadium, attendance figures, that solitary cup they won, time in the top flight (which is more than Burnley by a few years

) and number of finals they've reached in recent memory.
He also mentioned success in Europe, but he means reaching the final...

It's all opinion really, to suit whichever agenda.

yorkyclaret · Post by **yorkyclaret** » Sun May 20, 2018 4:55 pm

If the number of places the are behind us in the league, is lower than their average fans IQ multiplied by pie squared, they are bigger that everyone except Middlesborough.

Vegas Claret · Post by **Vegas Claret** » Sun May 20, 2018 5:00 pm

Do you get points for being a bigger club ? You don't so it doesn't matter - fact

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sun May 20, 2018 5:05 pm

In answer to the OP don't chat to people on certain wards.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 5:06 pm

bfcjg wrote:In answer to the OP don't chat to people on certain wards.

They still serve alcohol in Leeds - and throw a bed bath in and how can you argue?

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 5:21 pm

Alanstevensonsgloves wrote:You missed out on a john lennonesque reply there..
"Bradford City are not even the biggest team in Bradford!"

He went one better and used sarcasm mixed with slight of hand. Most people don't notice it.

Six fingers · Post by **Six fingers** » Sun May 20, 2018 5:24 pm

In the old days the bigger crowd got the vote
More crowd more money
These days the crowd don't make a difference look at Bournemouth
I think it goes of league position
But I wood say that we Finished seventh
Utc

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Sun May 20, 2018 5:54 pm

FactualFrank wrote:There's no answer to this, which is my point.

I was chatting to someone yesterday who is a Sheffield Weds fan and a Bradford fan - he has a season ticket with both. Anyway, we got onto the subject of Burnley and he said both Sheffield Weds and Bradford were bigger clubs than Burnley. He admitted Burnley were better, but not bigger.

I asked, what defines 'bigger' - and all he could come up with was, "Ask 10 people in here who's the bigger club" - my reply was, "but that's opinion based, not a fact". He kept coming around to the "Yeah, but ask anybody else in here" - which I reminded him was down to opinion.

So, is there any actual algorithm that determines club A is 'bigger' than club B? I don't think there is. Surely it's down to the individual on how big they see the club? Better can be determined by the league table, but there is no table for who is the bigger club.

your mate is deluded if he believes bradford or sheff wed are bigger, they are lower league nonentities thesedays.
barely no public profile outside their immediate area, , if you were abroad and mentioned those two yorkshire teams, doubtful anyone would have a clue who they were.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sun May 20, 2018 5:58 pm

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:I've seen a Boro fan having a similar argument with a Burnley fan on social media.

Boro fan was trying to ignore our title successes and moving the goalposts around to suit himself.

He was basing it on the quality of their stadium, attendance figures, that solitary cup they won, time in the top flight (which is more than Burnley by a few years ) and number of finals they've reached in recent memory.
He also mentioned success in Europe, but he means reaching the final...

It's all opinion really, to suit whichever agenda.

Pretty much, you can bend facts to suit either opinion. Like you could argue we aren't a big club because our attendances aren't huge but then you could say ''well our attendances are infact huge when considering population''.

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Sun May 20, 2018 5:58 pm

FactualFrank wrote:There's no answer to this, which is my point.

I was chatting to someone yesterday who is a Sheffield Weds fan and a Bradford fan - he has a season ticket with both. Anyway, we got onto the subject of Burnley and he said both Sheffield Weds and Bradford were bigger clubs than Burnley. He admitted Burnley were better, but not bigger.

I asked, what defines 'bigger' - and all he could come up with was, "Ask 10 people in here who's the bigger club" - my reply was, "but that's opinion based, not a fact". He kept coming around to the "Yeah, but ask anybody else in here" - which I reminded him was down to opinion.

So, is there any actual algorithm that determines club A is 'bigger' than club B? I don't think there is. Surely it's down to the individual on how big they see the club? Better can be determined by the league table, but there is no table for who is the bigger club.

Depends on where you are. If this conversation was happening in Yorkshire I agree they probably would think that.
In Burnley we know how that conversation would go. Even down south I think most would say Burnley because they have heard of them after a couple of years in the glory league.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 5:58 pm

Wile E Coyote wrote:your mate is deluded if he believes bradford or sheff wed are bigger, they are lower league nonentities thesedays.
barely no public profile outside their immediate area, , if you were abroad and mentioned those two yorkshire teams, doubtful anyone would have a clue who they were.

I didn't bring that into it, as I wanted to make the point that there is no bigger team - it didn't help that he had a Sunderland fan opposite him who tried to tell me that Sunderland were also bigger. Then, as I was talking there was his son nodding in agreement, but at the same time didn't want to disagree with his dad

My mate knew where I was coming from - and he's a bloody Leeds fan!

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sun May 20, 2018 6:01 pm

I certainly don't buy this ''little old Burnley'' crap that people on here blag on about, the ones who say this will use the Orient game but ignore the Division 1 winning season prior to that. Another one is the belief on here that ''we got promoted in 2013-14 while being relegation favourites'' another factually incorrect statement used to over do our achievement at the time.

Damo · Post by **Damo** » Sun May 20, 2018 6:15 pm

If you are talking about attendance then that's obviously relative to the size of the city/town/village the club hails from.
To me, club size relates to financial clout, who a big name player would rather play for, media exposure and in turn, how well known a club is globaly.
Bradford, Sheffield Wednesday and any other club in Yarkshire cannot hold a candle to little old Burnley

bfcjg · Post by **bfcjg** » Sun May 20, 2018 6:17 pm

Bradford no way. Sheff Wednesday bigger fan base but would appear to be very local support, I think take away the glamour of hosting semi finals in the day and I would argue we are a bigger club in every other marker .

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Sun May 20, 2018 6:43 pm

Here’s the thing for me. If Sheff Wed and Bradford were bigger clubs then you’d think you’d see fans of their clubs in other parts of the country or the world. I’ve been to various places over the past 10-20 years and I’ve nearly always seen a Claret fan, including Cornwall; Devon; East Anglia; London; Southampton; Cardiff; I even bumped into one in Majorca when on holiday. You could argue that I notice Clarets more, but I notice all football fans with shirts on, and I have never seen a Sheff Wed or Bradford shirt.

JarrowClaret · Post by **JarrowClaret** » Sun May 20, 2018 6:55 pm

I personally think that sheff wed are a bigger Club than Burnley it doesn’t matter what division we are in i think Wednesday are similar in size to Leeds maybe a little smaller but there or thereabouts. When we were in the 4 th division there were plenty of smaller teams than us in higher positions/ leagues. Bradford I would say are smaller but maybe they could be similar I have never really thought about it before but definitely not bigger. Sunderland are a potentially massive Club and much bigger than we are but who cares it is irrelevant the only relevance is the division you are in and the position you finish in that division.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:03 pm

JarrowClaret wrote:I personally think that sheff wed are a bigger Club than Burnley it doesn’t matter what division we are in i think Wednesday are similar in size to Leeds maybe a little smaller but there or thereabouts. When we were in the 4 th division there were plenty of smaller teams than us in higher positions/ leagues. Bradford I would say are smaller but maybe they could be similar I have never really thought about it before but definitely not bigger. Sunderland are a potentially massive Club and much bigger than we are but who cares it is irrelevant the only relevance is the division you are in and the position you finish in that division.

But that's my point. And you've started it off with city status. That doesn't determine how big a club is.

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:04 pm

Ive not read the whole thread, but I think the term 'bigger' is in context of support, ground side, history and clout.

I consider clubs such as Leeds, Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa, Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield United and Sunderland all 'bigger' clubs than Burnley, who are essentially sleeping giants.

Burnley are on par with the likes of Blackburn, Preston and even Blackpool, but bigger than the likes of QPR, Reading, Southampton, Crystal Palace and West Brom etc. Clubs like Manchester City and Chelsea are considered as recent super powers, but are behind Liverpool, Manchester United, Arsenal and Spurs, in my opinion. Its not about just finances the quality of players, it goes back years and clubs have to cement their place in footballing history.

Leeds are a huge club and could easily become a dominant footballing force if if they suddenly became super-rich and lead back to Premier League, but if the same happened with MK Dons, it'll take them decades to be considered a big club.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:09 pm

Exactly claptrappers_union - it's down to opinion. My point was that there is no rule. There is no, "Yes club X is bigger than club Y because of Z". Which he just didn't agree with and kept saying, "Yes but if you ask.."

JarrowClaret · Post by **JarrowClaret** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:10 pm

Nothing to do with City status just happens to be my opinion based on the traditional size of the Clubs right or wrong.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:16 pm

JarrowClaret wrote:Nothing to do with City status just happens to be my opinion

Exactly. That's my point.

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:20 pm

JarrowClaret wrote:Nothing to do with City status just happens to be my opinion based on the traditional size of the Clubs right or wrong.

I think that mainly because the likes of Newcastle are a one club city, they are a huge club, they have big attendances with a big stadium - with 'moderate' success over the years. But then there is Norwich, for example, with a similar catchment area. Yes they have bobbled around the top two divisions recently but in my opinion they are a city club no bigger than the likes of say, Ipswich, Barnsley or Huddersfield.

Its about all about footballing clout. There are some clubs in League One who are 'bigger' than some current Premier League clubs, not matter what finances and bums on seats mean.

I think Burnley, Bolton, Blackburn, Preston, Blackpool are all about the same... and bigger than Wigan, who despite having a ten year run in the top flight with an FA Cup in the past decade are a much smaller club.

Wolves are a big club too.

JarrowClaret · Post by **JarrowClaret** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:20 pm

Yes I know I agree with you if you are sat in Burnley the opinion 9x out of 10 would be Burnley are bigger maybe even 10x if sat in Bradford it would likely be the other way around. It is what it is and as I said totally irrelevant all that matters traditionally is where you finish and now you add the amount of money you earn. (SADLY)

andyh · Post by **andyh** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:21 pm

It is a talksport mainstay. Bigger is so nebulous that you you can never make it definitive. Personally I’d say we were smaller than Wednesday but much bigger than Bradford. However the longer we stay above Wednesday the smaller the gap becomes. And the prem is such a big factor that size changes much more rapidly than it used to. In the late 60s I thought we were bigger than Bolton. Then in the 70s it switches around and until the Coyle incident I regarded them as bigger. However you look at it now and I think we are about the same size again. And if we stay in the Prem for 5 years we will be bigger than them again.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:26 pm

JarrowClaret wrote:Yes I know I agree with you if you are sat in Burnley the opinion 9x out of 10 would be Burnley are bigger maybe even 10x if sat in Bradford it would likely be the other way around. It is what it is and as I said totally irrelevant all that matters traditionally is where you finish and now you add the amount of money you earn. (SADLY)

But you're missing what I'm saying. I'm not actually saying any club is bigger than another. What I'm saying is there is no boolean.

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:26 pm

Bradford have big attendances, but the two Sheffield clubs blow them out the water in my opinion. You can go abroad and say you live near Sheffield and the foreigner will reply with 'Sheffield Wednesday!'

Bradford Bulls are bigger than Bradford City

JarrowClaret · Post by **JarrowClaret** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:34 pm

I didn’t miss what you are saying well I don’t think I did anyway I think I may disagree but I don’t know what Boolean means!!! Anyway all opinions and one persons is just as relevant as the next persons. Unless it is my Girlfriend and then obviously mine is totally irrelevant then

Goody1975 · Post by **Goody1975** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:36 pm

Season Ticket Prices at Bradford

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:40 pm

JarrowClaret wrote:I didn’t miss what you are saying well I don’t think I did anyway I think I may disagree but I don’t know what Boolean means!!! Anyway all opinions and one persons is just as relevant as the next persons. Unless it is my Girlfriend and then obviously mine is totally irrelevant then

Boolean is true or false - it either is or it isn't. I'm in no way saying your opinion is 'wrong' not at all. I'm just saying that surely, sorting out who is a big club and who is bigger should rely on a ranking factor, or have an algorithm to sort it out. I just don't feel a bigger club should be down to an opinion.

JarrowClaret · Post by **JarrowClaret** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:53 pm

In that case I would say I agree and I don’t know how you would judge it keeping opinion out of it. The only ways I think you could are:

League position
Finance
Crowd size

Not sure how else

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:57 pm

JarrowClaret wrote:In that case I would say I agree and I don’t know how you would judge it keeping opinion out of it. The only ways I think you could are:

League position
Finance
Crowd size

Not sure how else

Maybe history of the club. And I guess city/town size would come into it. But with league position we can say club X is bigger than Z. It's not so simple when we're on about the size of a club.

andyh · Post by **andyh** » Sun May 20, 2018 7:58 pm

FactualFrank wrote:Boolean is true or false - it either is or it isn't. I'm in no way saying your opinion is 'wrong' not at all. I'm just saying that surely, sorting out who is a big club and who is bigger should rely on a ranking factor, or have an algorithm to sort it out. I just don't feel a bigger club should be down to an opinion.

It can’t be an algorithm any more than who is the prettier girl. You can get a consensus on any two teams that are miles apart eg us and united. But as soon as they get close it is just opinion. I’m sure some Reading fans think they are bigger than us and some of our fans think we are on a par with Sunderland. It is all just opinion. And depending on the weight you attach to size of fanbase or history you get significantly different answers. Just like we look for different things in girls (or boys)

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sun May 20, 2018 8:07 pm

andyh wrote:It can’t be an algorithm any more than who is the prettier girl. You can get a consensus on any two teams that are miles apart eg us and united. But as soon as they get close it is just opinion. I’m sure some Reading fans think they are bigger than us and some of our fans think we are on a par with Sunderland. It is all just opinion. And depending on the weight you attach to size of fanbase or history you get significantly different answers. Just like we look for different things in girls (or boys)

Summed up very well and my mindset too. The thread was more about asking for opinions (ironically) on it, rather than anything else. And like I say, you've summed it up how I was thinking. The algorithm would be more a more definititve rule that people agreed on. Computers use a random generator algorithm, but it's not random. It's a mathematical formula.

deanothedino · Post by **deanothedino** » Sun May 20, 2018 10:58 pm

Wednesday are a bigger club than us. Bradford definitely aren’t though. As someone else said, Bradford Bulls are bigger than the football team.

agreenwood · Post by **agreenwood** » Sun May 20, 2018 11:08 pm

Honestly no idea what “bigger” means in the context of this argument.

We’ve just finished 7th in the Prem, have a better squad than some of the clubs mentioned on this thread have had for decades and an income and brand exposure that they can only dream of. To top it off, we’ll be competing in Europe next season.

What you’re doing right now as a club, is the only tangible measure of anything. Everything is else is vague nonsense.

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Sun May 20, 2018 11:14 pm

My immediate response is that Sheffield Wednesday are bigger than us, but Bradford City are smaller than us.

Why? Years on variables going around my mind to give me an immediate answer. Bradford’s recent high crowds for their division don’t mask the cheap tickets and normal lower division status.

Bradford City’s largest crowd (1911) was against us with 39,000 there, but amongst that were 7,000 Burnley fans, so their largest home attendees has been 32,000, despite being a much bigger place than Burnley.

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Sun May 20, 2018 11:28 pm

agreenwood wrote:
We’ve just finished 7th in the Prem, have a better squad than some of the clubs mentioned on this thread have had for decades and an income and brand exposure that they can only dream of. To top it off, we’ll be competing in Europe next season.

But Everton, Newcastle, Sunderland, Nottingham Forest, West Ham, Wolves, Aston Villa, Derby County, Sheffield Wednesday and Sheffield United all finished below us - and I consider them bigger clubs.

GodIsADeeJay81 · Post by **GodIsADeeJay81** » Sun May 20, 2018 11:29 pm

Not really sure why anyone would consider Sunderland bigger..

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Sun May 20, 2018 11:42 pm

no offence to sheff wed, but they aren't a big club, simple as that.