Union Jacks at Italia 90

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:16 am

Came across the England v Germany semi on the BBC yesterday and one of the noticeable things was how many Union Jacks the England fans had rather than England flags

Any ideas what prompted the switch from one to another?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:18 am

Nationalism.

Pearcey · Post by **Pearcey** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:18 am

The dislike of England from the other British nations.

THEWELLERNUT70 · Post by **THEWELLERNUT70** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:19 am

Euro 96 is where the change happened due in some part to Scotland qualifying and the need for England fans to show their own identity.
If you take a look at the England fan pictures inside Wembley stadium for England games you will see that over 90% of the flags pictured are the George Cross rather than The Union Flag

randomclaret2 · Post by **randomclaret2** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:27 am

Identity politics

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:13 am

Personally prefer the union jack.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:17 am

In 1966 it was all Union Jacks.

RammyClaret61 · Post by **RammyClaret61** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:17 am

Much prefer the England flag.

90% of Union jacks are always upside down.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:18 am

What has the Union Jack got to do with England as a single country?

ClaretDiver · Post by **ClaretDiver** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:18 am

And 90% of people call it the Union Jack incorrectly.....

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:34 am

Was it about the same time the Welsh and Scots brought in there own anthems?

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:44 am

The Jack is the Navy flag. The Union Flag is what is commonly miscalled the Jack

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:56 am

aggi wrote:Any ideas what prompted the switch from one to another?

The rise of Scots nationalism and their use of the saltaire definitely prompted England fans to adopt the St. Georges cross.

I think the use of the Union flag can be traced to WWII - only these flags would have been in wide circulation.

Of course, we're in a unique position in terms of international football because England, Scotland, Wales and NI are in a tiny minority of being international football teams who aren't independent countries.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:02 pm

ClaretDiver wrote:And 90% of people call it the Union Jack incorrectly.....

elwaclaret wrote:The Jack is the Navy flag. The Union Flag is what is commonly miscalled the Jack

Not true

RammyClaret61 · Post by **RammyClaret61** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:04 pm

Wrong?

It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. Such use was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that “the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag”.

Cdr Bruce Nicolls OBE RN (Retd)

SloughClarets · Post by **SloughClarets** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:09 pm

Should be the England Flag for England, the Union flag for athletics etc.

Also think we should get an English National Anthem. God save the queen is fine for British type events but we should have something for English sporting events.

On a slightly separate note, singing God save the queen for an atheist has its contradictions

Lord Beamish · Post by **Lord Beamish** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:15 pm

SloughClarets wrote:
On a slightly separate note, singing God save the queen for an atheist has its contradictions

As an Atheist and a Republican, our National Anthem is beyond the pale for me. I haven’t stood for it or sung it for decades.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:19 pm

To be fair I like to sing Barbie Girl in the shower but I don’t mean what I’m singing.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:20 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:As an Atheist and a Republican, our National Anthem is beyond the pale for me. I haven’t stood for it or sung it for decades.

It was refreshing to see the national anthem entirely snubbed at the clubhouse where I watched the game on Saturday in the People’s Republic of South Yorkshire. Followed by whole hearted support for the team.

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:21 pm

Rileybobs wrote:To be fair I like to sing Barbie Girl in the shower but I don’t mean what I’m singing.

You sure about that Rileybobs?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:21 pm

Bloody remainers, not singing the national anthem

BET YOU'D SING THE EU ANTHEM

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:22 pm

NottsClaret wrote:You sure about that Rileybobs?

Ok, I don’t mean all of the words.

THEWELLERNUT70 · Post by **THEWELLERNUT70** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:26 pm

ClaretDiver wrote:And 90% of people call it the Union Jack incorrectly.....

Correct, it's The Union Flag

Foulthrow · Post by **Foulthrow** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:26 pm

NottsClaret wrote:It was refreshing to see the national anthem entirely snubbed at the clubhouse where I watched the game on Saturday in the People’s Republic of South Yorkshire. Followed by whole hearted support for the team.

They let people from Notts in Yarkshire?

Hope you kept it quiet

piston broke · Post by **piston broke** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:34 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Ok, I don’t mean all of the words.

You do know I’m now going to be googling Barbie girl lyrics.

Longsider · Post by **Longsider** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:03 pm

Pearcey wrote:The dislike of England from the other British nations.

This is true.

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:08 pm

Why's every plastic jock living in England got to have one of those SCO numberplates?

Same with the taffs... get a life!

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:13 pm

It's Mel Gibson's fault!

mkmel · Post by **mkmel** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:33 pm

Lord Beamish wrote:As an Atheist and a Republican, our National Anthem is beyond the pale for me. I haven’t stood for it or sung it for decades.

Me neither as the National Anthem as well as being a boring dirge is about asking someone who in my mind does not exist to save someone who means bugger all to me

It should most certainly be a more upbeat anthem and about our Country

Claretforever · Post by **Claretforever** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:26 pm

“And did Those Feet in Ancient Time”, later to be known as Jerusalem?

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon england's mountains green?
And was the holy lamb of god
On england's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was jerusalem builded here
Among those dark satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear: o clouds unfold!
Bring me my chariots of fire!

I will not cease from metal fight;
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built jerusalem
In england's green and pleasant land.

Nationals anthem?

Devils_Advocate · Post by **Devils_Advocate** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:34 pm

Claretforever wrote:“And did Those Feet in Ancient Time”, later to be known as Jerusalem?

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon england's mountains green?
And was the holy lamb of god
On england's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was jerusalem builded here
Among those dark satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear: o clouds unfold!
Bring me my chariots of fire!

I will not cease from metal fight;
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built jerusalem
In england's green and pleasant land.

Nationals anthem?

What a load of codswallop

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:37 pm

How about having a national anthem that's about science and not religion?

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:41 pm

Claretforever wrote:“And did Those Feet in Ancient Time”, later to be known as Jerusalem?

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon england's mountains green?
And was the holy lamb of god
On england's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was jerusalem builded here
Among those dark satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear: o clouds unfold!
Bring me my chariots of fire!

I will not cease from metal fight;
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built jerusalem
In england's green and pleasant land.

Nationals anthem?

Would get my vote over the current one. As said above the current one is no good for a non royalist who still has a sense of national pride.

Bin Ont Turf · Post by **Bin Ont Turf** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:42 pm

It's always been England's national anthem, and always will be............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tW0QqiT2LU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:44 pm

Yes happy with that one too.

mkmel · Post by **mkmel** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:49 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:How about having a national anthem that's about science and not religion?

Why not have a National Anthem like I imagine virtually every other country in the world has........

About their Country

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:52 pm

mkmel wrote:Why not have a National Anthem like I imagine virtually every other country in the world has........

About their Country

There's a lot of scientific history to sing about regarding our country.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:02 pm

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:04 pm

I’d love to see how slowly the camera would have to pan along the 11 England players as they tried to remember the words to the 4 minute build up to the Jerusalem crescendo.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:05 pm

Why don’t we just nick France’s? I doubt they have copyright over it.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:06 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Why don’t we just nick France’s? I doubt they have copyright over it.

And it's not as if they'll fight for it.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:07 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:And it's not as if they'll fight for it.

Racist.

Millertime v1.7 · Post by **Millertime v1.7** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:20 pm

Pearcey wrote:The dislike of England from the other British nations.

Hit the nail on the head, Bud. The idea of "Britain" is an outdated concept.

ten bellies · Post by **ten bellies** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:00 am

Millertime v1.7 wrote:Hit the nail on the head, Bud. The idea of "Britain" is an outdated concept.

Except in Scotland where the Jimmy Krankie lookalike, failed to persuade enough of your country folk to leave the said outdated concept. But I do understand you don't like us very much.

elwaclaret · Post by **elwaclaret** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:25 am

It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. Such use was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that “the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag”.

The Times state that while it is accepted through common use as the Jack - It's first use was as a naval flag and through research the Times are able to state:-
It is true that we’re always being hauled over the coals for using the ‘wrong’ term, and the current Style Guide entry doesn’t do a great deal to help: “Union Jack except in most naval and some ceremonial contexts, when Union Flag is correct; note that in the Royal Navy, Union Jack is used only when flown at the jackstaff. Context is everything: eg, a tourist in The Mall waves a Union Jack; the coffin of a British soldier is draped in the Union Flag.”
https://www.navy-net.co.uk/community/th ... ght.72629/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:29 am

I've read this entire thread and no one has suggested that they have been told by their council to take their England flag down.

Come on UTB, standards are slipping

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:00 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:There's a lot of scientific history to sing about regarding our country.

Is Irn Bru and Tennents Super really scientific?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:02 am

cricketfieldclarets wrote:Is Irn Bru and Tennents Super really scientific?

I'm referring to the UK. Which for the time being is still my country.

And there are plenty of Scottish scientists worth celebrating :p James Watt being my favourite since he was from Greenock.