The Independent

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:58 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:The entire article has a negative tone.

The headline itself focuses on the skills shortage rather than the rise of pay for workers, and the article follow suit to that tone.

Everyone knows the neo-liberals primary concern is to over-saturate a country with people, increasing demand for goods and services whilst making employment competition extremely high (so they can pay everyone crap and give nobody benefits).

The right and left should be united on this issue but for some reason the left have chosen to side with big business and the neo-libs.

The left haven't chosen to side with big business and neo-lib. You just like to pretend they have because you think it's more important to **** off the left than to have any kind of agreement.

John Gayles Shoulder · Post by **John Gayles Shoulder** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:02 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:"Those mentioned persons are in favour of breathing, therefore as a matter of virtue I shall not breathe"

I think those advocating the rights of big business are also in favour of breathing - are you not now arguing your own point? You can't tar everyone you disagree with with the same brush if you want to so easily disassociate yourself from people on your own 'side'

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:03 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:The left haven't chosen to side with big business and neo-lib. You just like to pretend they have because you think it's more important to **** off the left than to have any kind of agreement.

I've seen absolutely nothing from the left in this country to convince me they are on the side of the average working class man in the street. They seem much more concerned with improving their image amongst champagne socialists in cities, trendy students and hipsters and minorities who chose to identify themselves by their race or religion above their own self interests.

John Gayles Shoulder · Post by **John Gayles Shoulder** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:11 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:I've seen absolutely nothing from the left in this country to convince me they are on the side of the average working class man in the street. They seem much more concerned with improving their image amongst champagne socialists in cities, trendy students and hipsters and minorities who chose to identify themselves by their race or religion above their own self interests.

Your OP was in relation to Brexit. Brexit is not strictly a left/right issue - Corbyn is clearly pro-Brexit and is about as far left as we go in British politics, so not sure what you are trying to get at really with this split debate.

Also, I am genuinely intrigued to know who it is on the right of politics that you feel isn't acting in their own self interest and that genuinely gives a **** about the non-Eton educated working man?

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:13 pm

John Gayles Shoulder wrote:Your OP was in relation to Brexit. Brexit is not strictly a left/right issue - Corbyn is clearly pro-Brexit and is about as far left as we go in British politics, so not sure what you are trying to get at really with this split debate.

Also, I am genuinely intrigued to know who it is on the right of politics that you feel isn't acting in their own self interest and that genuinely gives a **** about the non-Eton educated working man?

UKIP.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:16 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:UKIP.

Based on what evidence?
In what way do you think UKIP care more about working people than someone like Corbyn, or Caroline Lucas?

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:27 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:The left haven't chosen to side with big business and neo-lib.

Do the majority of the left support the EU?

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:29 pm

John Gayles Shoulder wrote:Corbyn is clearly pro-Brexit and is about as far left as we go in British politics, so not sure what you are trying to get at really with this split debate.

I have heard it said, but he is a strong advocate of open borders and supports the single market, which is tantamount to supporting big business at the cost of the lowest wage earners.

John Gayles Shoulder · Post by **John Gayles Shoulder** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:30 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:UKIP.

The party who blame absolutely everything on immigration to hide the fact that they have no policies that actually offer practical solutions to anything else at all. The party who were most successful under Nigel Farage, the ex-city trader who made money out of the Brexit result and who was seen on the Thames championing British fishermen despite attending approx. 2 meetings in his 4 years on the EU fisheries commission.

Yeah, real men of the people that lot

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:31 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:UKIP.

This is unfortunately all we have. Labour care too much for identity politics to have any care for the working white men in this world.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:33 pm

burnleymik wrote:I have heard it said, but he is a strong advocate of open borders and supports the single market, which is tantamount to supporting big business at the cost of the lowest wage earners.

So Corbyn likes something that big business also likes, and that makes him pro-big business and anti worker?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:34 pm

I like renewable energy. Big business also likes renewable energy. Therefore i'm an ultra-capitalist shill who hates workers!

Who knew?

Who else would like to come out as corporate whores by applying mik's logic? C'mon. Don't be shy, you dirty proles!

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:39 pm

John Gayles Shoulder wrote:The party who blame absolutely everything on immigration to hide the fact that they have no policies that actually offer practical solutions to anything else at all. The party who were most successful under Nigel Farage, the ex-city trader who made money out of the Brexit result and who was seen on the Thames championing British fishermen despite attending approx. 2 meetings in his 4 years on the EU fisheries commission.

Yeah, real men of the people that lot

I think this shows your level of knowledge, not only of UKIP, but also of Farage. You are quite literally regurgitating what the left-wing media have put out there.

The point about him making money from the Brexit result is purely speculation, that he has denied. This is based on the fact he said he thought remain had won on the eve of the result. Everyone thought Remain had won, Nigel was not alone in that thought. The exit polls and everything were predicting a remain win. Stating he tried to short the markets by saying he thought remain had won is ridiculous and completely unproven.

I could contest all your other statements, but I suspect I would be wasting my time.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:40 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Based on what evidence?
In what way do you think UKIP care more about working people than someone like Corbyn, or Caroline Lucas?

They talk about the issues that matter to me as a working class blue collar guy. Things like immigration, housing, free speech, focus of tax allowances increases as oppose to blanked minimum wage rises (which I think are more sustainable), a less wimpy stance on Islam, and their views that only STEM courses should be publicly funded for gifted students.

For me personally, they are too far right on issues like immigration, religion. The last manifesto pledged 0 net migration, which is ridiculous. I'm hoping the likes of Sargon and Count Dank with their increasingly involved roles in the party can bring them further left on those issues, they have already expressed desire to do so.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:40 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:So Corbyn likes something that big business also likes, and that makes him pro-big business and anti worker?

How can you support the working class, whilst having open borders? The 2 are mutually exclusive.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:42 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I like renewable energy. Big business also likes renewable energy. Therefore i'm an ultra-capitalist shill who hates workers!

Who knew?

Who else would like to come out as corporate whores by applying mik's logic? C'mon. Don't be shy, you dirty proles!

This is where you fall down. You are now trying to mock my point, but then contradicting the very points you made about Trump.

It's a real shame you can;t debate like an adult. You are only making yourself look foolish again.

John Gayles Shoulder · Post by **John Gayles Shoulder** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:57 pm

burnleymik wrote:I think this shows your level of knowledge, not only of UKIP, but also of Farage. You are quite literally regurgitating what the left-wing media have put out there.

The point about him making money from the Brexit result is purely speculation, that he has denied. This is based on the fact he said he thought remain had won on the eve of the result. Everyone thought Remain had won, Nigel was not alone in that thought. The exit polls and everything were predicting a remain win. Stating he tried to short the markets by saying he thought remain had won is ridiculous and completely unproven.

I could contest all your other statements, but I suspect I would be wasting my time.

We are all regurgitating what we want to believe. Unless you are directly involved, there is no way any of us can do anything else. Do I tend to believe what Nigel Farage tells me? No, because I find him duplicitous and I don't like the fact that he cozies up to the likes of Donald Trump who is a proven right leaning liar and has been willing to offer his services for money to speak at far right rallies around the World.

It genuinely staggers me that 'the white working man' believes he has any genuine interest for standing up on their behalf. The whole 'fake news' claim from the right only seems to apply when the facts presented are showing them in a bad light, yet people happily take their word for it. Dismissing news reports that you don't like without any real counter argument is dangerous territory and I don't like it, and nor should anyone who doesn't want to live in a totalitarian state.

Farage has done nothing but snipe from the side because he knows if he has to put into practice what he preaches, he would soon realise it was unworkable in the modern world. Whenever he has tried to enter mainstream politics, he has failed (as voted by the electorate) yet still gets the time and attention to criticise. H said openly if Brexit had said no by a narrow margin, he would continue the fight. Brexit said yes by a narrow margin and he is unwilling to entertain further consideration of the result because he got his own way. The guy is a horrendous hypocrite who will drop the interests of the 'working man' as soon as he can get nothing more out of it

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:58 pm

burnleymik wrote:This is where you fall down. You are now trying to mock my point, but then contradicting the very points you made about Trump.

It's a real shame you can;t debate like an adult. You are only making yourself look foolish again.

I'm not trying to mock your point. I'm openly, and actually, mocking your point.

I've tried debating with you like an adult, numerous times. But each time you clearly and deliberately misrepresent my point of view. So whats the point? If you were interested in adult debate then you wouldn't be misrepresenting my position with such frequency. Debating with someone who will misrepresent your position in their response to your position is a waste of time.

This isn't going to stop me openly mocking you when you continue to misrepresent mine, or anyone elses position of course. But it should at least provide to you an explanation that you don't deserve as to why i have no interest in an adult debate with you; it's purely because you're not interested in one.

If you change your strategy of bullshitting about others then i'll reconsider the lack of respect I have for you and your arguments. But until then you'll continue to be little more than a source of amusement.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:04 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I'm not trying to mock your point. I'm openly, and actually, mocking your point.

I've tried debating with you like an adult, numerous times. But each time you clearly and deliberately misrepresent my point of view. So whats the point? .

That is exactly what you were doing! Have you absolutely no self-awareness? It takes a special type to be so hypocritical and have no sense that you are actually doing it.

If you want to debate like an adult, stick to the point and not personal slights, attacks and mocking. The fact that you cannot do that points to anger issues and insecurity.

It was peaceful whilst I had you on mute, but I noticed you still always replied because you just can't help yourself. Your ego will not allow it. I unmuted you to see if you could yet debate like most other people on here do, but you still cannot.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:12 pm

burnleymik wrote:How can you support the working class, whilst having open borders? The 2 are mutually exclusive.

You'll have to explain that one, along with supporting evidence.
There's a great deal of evidence, (anecdotal and current), that contradicts what you have just written.
For centuries the working class have moved from country to country in search of a better life, and millions have found it.

John Gayles Shoulder · Post by **John Gayles Shoulder** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:13 pm

I don't agree with all IT says, Burnleymik, but you questioned my intelligence for suggesting I didn't trust UKIP/Farage before I had even spoken or debated with you. Is that not a personal slight without justification?

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:20 pm

burnleymik wrote:That is exactly what you were doing! Have you absolutely no self-awareness? It takes a special type to be so hypocritical and have no sense that you are actually doing it.

If you want to debate like an adult, stick to the point and not personal slights, attacks and mocking. The fact that you cannot do that points to anger issues and insecurity.

It was peaceful whilst I had you on mute, but I noticed you still always replied because you just can't help yourself. Your ego will not allow it. I unmuted you to see if you could yet debate like most other people on here do, but you still cannot.

I'll stop hurting your feelings when you stop misrepresenting other people's position with the near 100% frequency that you do. I'll still tear apart your bullshit arguments, but i won't consider your fragile sensitivities as something to protect in doing so.

I'm more than willing to debate with you, but you have to stop lying about the other person's argument when you reply to it.
I genuinely have more respect for Ringo than you right now because at least Ringo only sometimes misrepresents other people's arguments.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:21 pm

John Gayles Shoulder wrote:I don't agree with all IT says, Burnleymik, but you questioned my intelligence for suggesting I didn't trust UKIP/Farage before I had even spoken or debated with you. Is that not a personal slight without justification?

I wouldn't mind you pointing out where I question your intelligence because I do not think I did that.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:22 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:I'll stop hurting your feelings when you stop misrepresenting other people's position with the near 100% frequency that you do.

Firstly you are a hypocrite. Secondly you are a liar.

John Gayles Shoulder · Post by **John Gayles Shoulder** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:24 pm

burnleymik wrote:I wouldn't mind you pointing out where I question your intelligence because I do not think I did that.

I think this shows your level of knowledge, not only of UKIP, but also of Farage. You are quite literally regurgitating what the left-wing media have put out there.

You did this without knowing anything about me. I could have been Farage's bank manager for all you knew

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:25 pm

burnleymik wrote:I think this shows your level of knowledge, not only of UKIP, but also of Farage. You are quite literally regurgitating what the left-wing media have put out there.

The point about him making money from the Brexit result is purely speculation, that he has denied. This is based on the fact he said he thought remain had won on the eve of the result. Everyone thought Remain had won, Nigel was not alone in that thought. The exit polls and everything were predicting a remain win. Stating he tried to short the markets by saying he thought remain had won is ridiculous and completely unproven.

I could contest all your other statements, but I suspect I would be wasting my time.

There weren't any exit polls predicting a remain win. Are you mis-remembering, or lying to support your argument?

Farage saw private polling that showed Leave had won and then went on TV to say Remain had won.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:28 pm

John Gayles Shoulder wrote:You did this without knowing anything about me. I could have been Farage's bank manager for all you knew

That is not questioning your intelligence, just your knowledge of Farage and UKIP, as stated. I think there is a very big difference. I have no reason to question your intelligence and would never presume to do so.

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:30 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:There weren't any exit polls predicting a remain win. Are you mis-remembering, or lying to support your argument? I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, if it wasn't for they way you conduct yourself in debates on here.

Farage saw private polling that showed Leave had won and then went on TV to say Remain had won.

There were no exit polls, granted. My mistake. There were plenty of polls and predictions out there though and I can't remember seeing many, if any, that predicted a Brexit win.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:35 pm

burnleymik wrote:There were no exit polls, granted. My mistake. There were plenty of polls and predictions out there though and I can't remember seeing many, if any, that predicted a Brexit win.

Well, since you admitted your mistake i'll remove my snark.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:17 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:Because the cause is a politically inconvenience therefore its better to twist it into a negative.

More likely because you bizarrely tried to claim in the OP that the Independent have some kind of agenda in printing this news (I mean, I'm sure they do have an agenda - almost every media outlet does - but the linked article was entirely neutral in tone).

Seems like you missed a chance to big up the benefits of Brexit, because you couldn't pass up the chance to have an inaccurate dig at a left-leaning newspaper (burnleymik will tell you every newspaper is left-leaning, of course, but that's just because he's not a big fan of facts)

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:21 pm

Greenmile wrote:r (burnleymik will tell you every newspaper is left-leaning, of course, but that's just because he's not a big fan of facts)

hang on.. I'll get Turtle in here to moan about misrepresentation...

Any chance you can point out where I have said every newspaper is left-leaning? Thought not. You can leave your lies there if you wish.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:31 pm

burnleymik wrote:hang on.. I'll get Turtle in here to moan about misrepresentation...

Any chance you can point out where I have said every newspaper is left-leaning? Thought not. You can leave your lies there if you wish.

Posting an opinion about you that you believe is inaccurate it not the same as misrepresenting your argument.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:11 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Posting an opinion about you that you believe is inaccurate it not the same as misrepresenting your argument.

Misrepresenting an argument... You mean like you do with me when I say I dislike a protest and you say "I dislike it because the protesters are all black"? (even when they aren't)

burnleymik · Post by **burnleymik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:16 pm

Imploding Turtle wrote:Posting an opinion about you that you believe is inaccurate it not the same as misrepresenting your argument.

Stating I am not a big fan of facts is misrepresenting me. I love facts. Facts are great against ideological nutjobs.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:31 pm

ClaretMoffitt wrote:Misrepresenting an argument... You mean like you do with me when I say I dislike a protest and you say "I dislike it because the protesters are all black"? (even when they aren't)

The blatant lies continue.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:47 pm

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:11 pm

burnleymik wrote:hang on.. I'll get Turtle in here to moan about misrepresentation...

Any chance you can point out where I have said every newspaper is left-leaning? Thought not. You can leave your lies there if you wish.

Maybe it was an exaggeration on my part, but let's see what a little search of the word "media" in your posting history shows us...

- Here you are providing "evidence" to substantiate CM's claim that the police and the media are on the side of the left

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p763954" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 37)

(maybe you just meant the police and not the media)

- This is you taking about "the pro-remain media narrative". I know there's an argument that Brexit is neither left nor right-wing, but the majority of its most ardent supporters (on here and in the HoC) seem pretty right wing to me, on the whole.

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p765775" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 14)

(maybe you meant the narrative of that part of the media which is pro-remain, but wait...)

- ..because here you are complaining about how "the media" (not "the pro-remain media" this time) blamed a rise in racism on Brexit voters

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p766186" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 34)

- and this is you complaining that the media have made a mountain out of the molehill that is the Irish border problem associated with Brexit

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p768955" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 40)

- here's a couple more mentions of how our media are pro-remain and pushing project fear etc (I mean seriously, do you only ever read the Independent and the Guardian or something?)

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p774870" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 26)

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p775273" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 48)

- in this one, you actually conflate "the media and the left" as if they are essentially interchangeable

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p775284" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 4)

- this is you claiming that anyone who criticises Islam (Islamaphobia is inherently right wing, imo, although I accept you may disagree) "feels the wrath of...the media"

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p788203" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 10) - you make the same argument a number of different times on this thread, so I won't link them all, as this is already turning into a bit of an essay.

- here's your contribution to the thread on why the left-wing is dying. Apparently it's because the media can no longer control the narrative.

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p795353" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 2)

- and finally, here are a couple of throwaway references to "the left wing media"

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p795411" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 21)

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p797810" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 13)

Now, apart from a few occasions when you've quoted other posters using the word media, a mention of "social media", and a post on a thread about Virgin Media, that is all my search brought up. I've already given you a few get-out clauses above, and I accept that none of these posts in isolation prove that you think every newspaper is left-leaning, but it amounts to what IT would call "a body of evidence" all pointing in one direction.

Maybe you'll apologise for calling me a liar, but I doubt it.

And before anyone asks, no I don't have anything better to do with my Friday evening.

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:37 pm

Greenmile wrote:Maybe it was an exaggeration on my part, but let's see what a little search of the word "media" in your posting history shows us...

- Here you are providing "evidence" to substantiate CM's claim that the police and the media are on the side of the left

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p763954" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 37)

(maybe you just meant the police and not the media)

- This is you taking about "the pro-remain media narrative". I know there's an argument that Brexit is neither left nor right-wing, but the majority of its most ardent supporters (on here and in the HoC) seem pretty right wing to me, on the whole.

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p765775" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 14)

(maybe you meant the narrative of that part of the media which is pro-remain, but wait...)

- ..because here you are complaining about how "the media" (not "the pro-remain media" this time) blamed a rise in racism on Brexit voters

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p766186" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 34)

- and this is you complaining that the media have made a mountain out of the molehill that is the Irish border problem associated with Brexit

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p768955" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 40)

- here's a couple more mentions of how our media are pro-remain and pushing project fear etc (I mean seriously, do you only ever read the Independent and the Guardian or something?)

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p774870" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 26)

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p775273" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 48)

- in this one, you actually conflate "the media and the left" as if they are essentially interchangeable

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p775284" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 4)

- this is you claiming that anyone who criticises Islam (Islamaphobia is inherently right wing, imo, although I accept you may disagree) "feels the wrath of...the media"

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p788203" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 10) - you make the same argument a number of different times on this thread, so I won't link them all, as this is already turning into a bit of an essay.

- here's your contribution to the thread on why the left-wing is dying. Apparently it's because the media can no longer control the narrative.

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p795353" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 2)

- and finally, here are a couple of throwaway references to "the left wing media"

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p795411" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 21)

http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... ia#p797810" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (post 13)

Now, apart from a few occasions when you've quoted other posters using the word media, a mention of "social media", and a post on a thread about Virgin Media, that is all my search brought up. I've already given you a few get-out clauses above, and I accept that none of these posts in isolation prove that you think every newspaper is left-leaning, but it amounts to what IT would call "a body of evidence" all pointing in one direction.

Maybe you'll apologise for calling me a liar, but I doubt it.

And before anyone asks, no I don't have anything better to do with my Friday evening.

In Greenmile Towers, the long, dark winter evenings, must simply fly by!

LS7 · Post by **LS7** » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:15 pm

Imagine deciding to get involved in this **** on a Burnley FC message board. The original lose-lose. Keep going - one of you might win!

LS7 · Post by **LS7** » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:16 pm

Personally I want more pstotto on drugs