Labour betray their leave voters..

[Down_Rover]

This sad story demonstrates the appalling state of politics in this country.

We won two world wars by pulling together and putting our differences aside. We now face a similar potential seismic change to the nation and all we see, at a time when all parties should be pulling together, all sorts of factions and individuals trying to make capital gain. All of this is counter productive to the interests of the nation as a whole.

I am no fan of Theresa May but she always faced an impossible task. There is no deal she could agree that would be acceptable in the eyes of those who are seeking to promote their own careers. It is always far easier to criticise than to do.

The Chequers deal, whatever one thinks about it, was an effort to play hard ball and anything less would have been slated by opposition from within and without her party.

Reece-Mogg last night made his own pitch for party leader and Jonson and Gove have over the last three years delighted in schoolboy pranks of lighting the blue touch paper and running away. May is now a dead woman walking.

The labour party have latched on to the possibility of a general election and power for themselves. Yet neither they, or the senior members in the Tory ranks have come up with an alternative. The idea of a second referendum is ludicrous and just a popular myth to curry favour and gain support for the potential election.

It is ludicrous because it is contrary to the democratic ethos and because it makes negotiating an exit deal impossible. Other nations are negotiating via their principals and will need to know a deal is deliverable not subject to the whims of individual voters.

Whatever happened to looking after the nations interests, all parties should be sticking together here to get the best for the country not promoting their own personna

Until there is a major overhaul of the political system and those involved I fear for this country's future. We need real people in charge who understand what real life is like outside the cocoon of Westminster

[RingoMcCartney]

This sad story demonstrates the appalling state of politics in this country.

We won two world wars by pulling together and putting our differences aside. We now face a similar potential seismic change to the nation and all we see, at a time when all parties should be pulling together, all sorts of factions and individuals trying to make capital gain. All of this is counter productive to the interests of the nation as a whole.

I am no fan of Theresa May but she always faced an impossible task. There is no deal she could agree that would be acceptable in the eyes of those who are seeking to promote their own careers. It is always far easier to criticise than to do.

The Chequers deal, whatever one thinks about it, was an effort to play hard ball and anything less would have been slated by opposition from within and without her party.

Reece-Mogg last night made his own pitch for party leader and Jonson and Gove have over the last three years delighted in schoolboy pranks of lighting the blue touch paper and running away. May is now a dead woman walking.

The labour party have latched on to the possibility of a general election and power for themselves. Yet neither they, or the senior members in the Tory ranks have come up with an alternative. The idea of a second referendum is ludicrous and just a popular myth to curry favour and gain support for the potential election.

It is ludicrous because it is contrary to the democratic ethos and because it makes negotiating an exit deal impossible. Other nations are negotiating via their principals and will need to know a deal is deliverable not subject to the whims of individual voters.

Whatever happened to looking after the nations interests, all parties should be sticking together here to get the best for the country not promoting their own personna

Until there is a major overhaul of the political system and those involved I fear for this country's future. We need real people in charge who understand what real life is like outside the cocoon of Westminster

Post of the week. Month. Year.....

[Spijed]

This sad story demonstrates the appalling state of politics in this country.

We won two world wars by pulling together and putting our differences aside. We now face a similar potential seismic change to the nation and all we see, at a time when all parties should be pulling together, all sorts of factions and individuals trying to make capital gain. All of this is counter productive to the interests of the nation as a whole.

I am no fan of Theresa May but she always faced an impossible task. There is no deal she could agree that would be acceptable in the eyes of those who are seeking to promote their own careers. It is always far easier to criticise than to do.

The Chequers deal, whatever one thinks about it, was an effort to play hard ball and anything less would have been slated by opposition from within and without her party.

Reece-Mogg last night made his own pitch for party leader and Jonson and Gove have over the last three years delighted in schoolboy pranks of lighting the blue touch paper and running away. May is now a dead woman walking.

The labour party have latched on to the possibility of a general election and power for themselves. Yet neither they, or the senior members in the Tory ranks have come up with an alternative. The idea of a second referendum is ludicrous and just a popular myth to curry favour and gain support for the potential election.

It is ludicrous because it is contrary to the democratic ethos and because it makes negotiating an exit deal impossible. Other nations are negotiating via their principals and will need to know a deal is deliverable not subject to the whims of individual voters.

Whatever happened to looking after the nations interests, all parties should be sticking together here to get the best for the country not promoting their own personna

Until there is a major overhaul of the political system and those involved I fear for this country's future. We need real people in charge who understand what real life is like outside the cocoon of Westminster

And yet Nigel Farage wanted a second referendum had we voted to remain...

[claretonthecoast1882]

Spijed with yet another ... whatabout post

[RingoMcCartney]

And yet Nigel Farage wanted a second referendum had we voted to remain...

When there was nothing more to say. You were still trying to say it.........

[JohnMcGreal]

This sad story demonstrates the appalling state of politics in this country.

We won two world wars by pulling together and putting our differences aside. We now face a similar potential seismic change to the nation and all we see, at a time when all parties should be pulling together, all sorts of factions and individuals trying to make capital gain. All of this is counter productive to the interests of the nation as a whole.

I am no fan of Theresa May but she always faced an impossible task. There is no deal she could agree that would be acceptable in the eyes of those who are seeking to promote their own careers. It is always far easier to criticise than to do.

The Chequers deal, whatever one thinks about it, was an effort to play hard ball and anything less would have been slated by opposition from within and without her party.

Reece-Mogg last night made his own pitch for party leader and Jonson and Gove have over the last three years delighted in schoolboy pranks of lighting the blue touch paper and running away. May is now a dead woman walking.

The labour party have latched on to the possibility of a general election and power for themselves. Yet neither they, or the senior members in the Tory ranks have come up with an alternative. The idea of a second referendum is ludicrous and just a popular myth to curry favour and gain support for the potential election.

It is ludicrous because it is contrary to the democratic ethos and because it makes negotiating an exit deal impossible. Other nations are negotiating via their principals and will need to know a deal is deliverable not subject to the whims of individual voters.

Whatever happened to looking after the nations interests, all parties should be sticking together here to get the best for the country not promoting their own personna

Until there is a major overhaul of the political system and those involved I fear for this country's future. We need real people in charge who understand what real life is like outside the cocoon of Westminster

We won two world wars by forming alliances with our international allies, not by telling them all to **** off. I do like how Brexit is now being discussed in comparison with the two horrific world wars we had to endure, though. The fact that we've appointed a minister to oversee food provisions for the first time since the second world war makes it very apt.

If the government suddenly started looking after the nation's interest, Article 50 would be withdrawn immediately. Leaving the European Union is not in the national interest.

[RingoMcCartney]

We won two world wars by forming alliances with our international allies, not by telling them all to **** off. I do like how Brexit is now being discussed in comparison with the two horrific world wars we had to endure, though. The fact that we've appointed a minister to oversee food provisions for the first time since the second world war makes it very apt.

If the government suddenly started looking after the nation's interest, Article 50 would be withdrawn immediately. Leaving the European Union is not in the national interest.

17, 410, 742 Brits disagree

[aggi]

They simply didn't get the result they expected. Now, despite only 30% of labour constituencies having voted for remain, they're undermining the democratic process AND the mandate on which they were elected. Meeting Barnier and as good as saying "Don't worry, we'll ignore the will of the British People and frustrate and thwart democracy and give you what you want"

Didn't you say that only 38% of Labour voters voted Leave. That seems more relevant than the number of constituencies.

[JohnMcGreal]

17, 410, 742 Brits disagree

That doesn't mean they're right.

[dsr]

We won two world wars by forming alliances with our international allies, not by telling them all to **** off. I do like how Brexit is now being discussed in comparison with the two horrific world wars we had to endure, though. The fact that we've appointed a minister to oversee food provisions for the first time since the second world war makes it very apt.

Maybe your memory is better than mine, but I'd be surprised if during the bread and sugar shortages of the 1970's, there wasn't a minister with responsibility for trying to sort it.

[RingoMcCartney]

That doesn't mean they're right.

It means their view won.....

[RingoMcCartney]

Didn't you say that only 38% of Labour voters voted Leave. That seems more relevant than the number of constituencies.

To be honest I don't think I did say 38% of labour voters voted Leave. I genuinely don't remember saying that. If you can show me where I did, I'll be more than happy to stand corrected. It's no biggy.

As for what's more relevant. It's dependent on your viewpoint.

I believe that because only 30% of labour constituencies voted Leave. The fact that Labour got millions of votes based on a manifesto, that pledged to "leave the EU, leave the single market and customs union, and end free movement of people" And now they're doing a hand brake turn on the lot of it , and simultaneously , having undermining , subversive and treasonous talks with the other side, in vital negotiations. Shows that they're just desperate to get into power and sell their soul to the highest bidder.

Theyre no longer the British working class party.

They're the Islington dinner party. Blissfully unaware of what their traditional voters think of their unpatriotic actions. Which speak far far louder than their duplicitous words.

They've forgotten that they're vulnerable to the northern ballot box.

[Spijed]

To be honest I don't think I did say 38% of labour voters voted Leave. I genuinely don't remember saying that. If you can show me where I did, I'll be more than happy to stand corrected. It's no biggy.

As for what's more relevant. It's dependent on your viewpoint.

I believe that because only 30% of labour constituencies voted Leave. The fact that Labour got millions of votes based on a manifesto, that pledged to "leave the EU, leave the single market and customs union, and end free movement of people" And now they're doing a hand brake turn on the lot of it , and simultaneously , having undermining , subversive and treasonous talks with the other side, in vital negotiations. Shows that they're just desperate to get into power and sell their soul to the highest bidder.

Theyre no longer the British working class party.

They're the Islington dinner party. Blissfully unaware of what their traditional voters think of their unpatriotic actions. Which speak far far louder than their duplicitous words.

They've forgotten that they're vulnerable to the northern ballot box.

You do realise Jeremy Corbyn has always been against the EU.

[Chobulous]

You do realise Jeremy Corbyn has always been against the EU.

Until it suits him to hint that remain might be an option if he gains power.

[Lancasterclaret]

In his defence, if he's serious about listening to his members, then he has no choice.

[CombatClaret]

We won two world wars by pulling together and putting our differences aside. We now face a similar potential seismic change to the nation and all we see,

Forever comparing Brexit to the World Wars like this political trade & immigration wrangling is equivalent to potential military invasion of home soil and the deaths of millions

Some people just can't get away from WWII, Looking back all misty eyed wishing time would turn back. Article in today's papers on disillusioned Tory grassroots in Hornchurch
“She’s trying her best to get a deal but personally I’d rather have no deal than a bad deal … If this country had a chance and an opportunity it could look after itself. In the second world war we were feeding ourselves.”

So we're looking back on war time rationing as not only positive but a viable option in 2018? Some people just don't get the modern connected world.

[burnleymik]

Forever comparing Brexit to the World Wars like this political trade & immigration wrangling is equivalent to potential military invasion of home soil and the deaths of millions

Some people just can't get away from WWII, Looking back all misty eyed wishing time would turn back. Article in today's papers on disillusioned Tory grassroots in Hornchurch
“She’s trying her best to get a deal but personally I’d rather have no deal than a bad deal … If this country had a chance and an opportunity it could look after itself. In the second world war we were feeding ourselves.”

So we're looking back on war time rationing as not only positive but a viable option in 2018? Some people just don't get the modern connected world.

To be fair it's the EU who keep telling us they brought peace to Europe...

Also, I very much doubt anyone wishes we could turn back time to WWII. It's just being used as a metaphor.

[Lancasterclaret]

Badly

I have all the time in the world for the old people who fought in it, I have no time at all for slightly less older people who didn't fight in it, and draw the wrong conclusions from it.

[RingoMcCartney]

You do realise Jeremy Corbyn has always been against the EU.

Yes. And his apparent conversion on the road to Damascus is all the more interesting.

Is he being bullied by the metropolitan bubble dwellers - Starmer/ Umuna/ Kinnock?

Or is he simply trying to be all things to all men. But actually looking, to the 70% of labour constiencies that voted Leave , as charlatan, utterly bankrupt of principles.?

[RingoMcCartney]

Had the misfortune to hear James obrian yesterday, as he launched into one of his grindingly self aggrandizimgly pious 20 minute long monologues.

In a moment of, pure self awareness lacking, arrogance. He said , when he was plumpimg up his grotesque ego yet again. "My next book should be called - I really want to be wrong sometimes"!!!

I get now why Lancaster Claret is a fervent disciple of Obrain, and where he gets some of his inspiration !

[Jakubclaret]

Badly

I have all the time in the world for the old people who fought in it, I have no time at all for slightly less older people who didn't fight in it, and draw the wrong conclusions from it.

The "slightly less old people" you refer to- probably suffered similar hardships the older forefathers endured in the days of rations ect, wasn't exclusive to 1 set generation & as a consequence the next weren't exactly well off, the wrong conclusions not altogether sure what you are driving at or even going at with that comment.

[Lancasterclaret]

That does remind me, I'll have to ask the ones over 80 if they had to stockpile food.

[Jakubclaret]

That does remind me, I'll have to ask the ones over 80 if they had to stockpile food.

That's very assumpious food was actually available, scant to the poor.

[Lancasterclaret]

Er, right

So if you had more money, you got more food. Interesting rationing system.

[Jakubclaret]

Are you talking pre or post WW2?

[mkmel]

17, 410, 742 Brits disagree

That was then and this is now

IMO that figure would be drastically different if there was a second referendum

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

Rationing ended sixty four years ago, and most of the rationing ended before that.

[Down_Rover]

Forever comparing Brexit to the World Wars like this political trade & immigration wrangling is equivalent to potential military invasion of home soil and the deaths of millions

Some people just can't get away from WWII, Looking back all misty eyed wishing time would turn back. Article in today's papers on disillusioned Tory grassroots in Hornchurch
“She’s trying her best to get a deal but personally I’d rather have no deal than a bad deal … If this country had a chance and an opportunity it could look after itself. In the second world war we were feeding ourselves.”

So we're looking back on war time rationing as not only positive but a viable option in 2018? Some people just don't get the modern connected world.

Burnleymik has it right.

It is a metaphor to illustrate that when the gauntlet is down we need to pull together not jockey for position. Nothing to do with rationing... yet

[Down_Rover]

Post of the week. Month. Year.....

Aw thanks Ringo.

And I thought it was routine to relentlessly slag people off on here for daring to have an opinion

[Lancasterclaret]

I have to admit, having heard people go on about how we won the war, and have to be wary of Germany taking over the world on the radio and on a football message board that I'm not sure it is being used as a metaphor.

IMHO of course!

[Down_Rover]

I have to admit, having heard people go on about how we won the war, and have to be wary of Germany taking over the world on the radio and on a football message board that I'm not sure it is being used as a metaphor.

IMHO of course!

Tell me Lancaster what do you do to yourself to make yourself so angry and argumentative.

I was the first to mention the war and I explained the metaphor.

Do you think I am lying or does you anger mean you lack the concentration to read more than one sentence?

[RingoMcCartney]

Aw thanks Ringo.

And I thought it was routine to relentlessly slag people off on here for daring to have an opinion

No fairs fair. Your post was considered, objective and written without sounding partisan or blinkered.

Fair play.

(Just wish I could be the same! )

[burnleymik]

I have to admit, having heard people go on about how we won the war, and have to be wary of Germany taking over the world on the radio and on a football message board that I'm not sure it is being used as a metaphor.

IMHO of course!

..and just IMO I think that the country with clearly the most power and influence within the EU is Germany. Not that it should be any reference to the war.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I have just read an excellent article about the nation state being reinvigorated, and it being a good thing.

When we talk of Labour betraying their Leave voters, this is the kind of thing we are on about.

https://unherd.com/2018/09/the-fake-pat ... eral-left/

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm pretty sure on here you are not the first on here to mention the war, or that it can be used as a metaphor down_Rover.

And I'm only confrontational to those on here who say stuff that they can't back up.

I'm sure that for some, mentioning the war in the context of Brexit is a metaphor, and I'm equally sure (again, by reading this board) that for others its a fear they actually believe because they want to.

And why would I think you are lying, you've just said its a metaphor. For you, I'm sure it is.

And I'm never angry on here. Just somewhat vexed!

[JohnMcGreal]

Burnleymik has it right.

It is a metaphor to illustrate that when the gauntlet is down we need to pull together not jockey for position. Nothing to do with rationing... yet

Why is the gauntlet down in the first place? Who caused this mess? This isn't an unavoidable war. This is a self-inflicted crisis that can still be fixed.

[Spijed]

It is a metaphor to illustrate that when the gauntlet is down we need to pull together not jockey for position. Nothing to do with rationing... yet

How can you ever convince people to pull together if some still think leaving is totally the wrong option?

[Lancasterclaret]

I can take that one.

You can, but you have to realise that "compromise" isn't spelt s,u,r,r,e,n,d,e,r

[RingoMcCartney]

That was then and this is now

IMO that figure would be drastically different if there was a second referendum

Fair enough.

But as confirmed on last week's question time , the leading pollster in the UK said opinions had not budged an inch since the referendum.

There can't be a 2nd referendum as the result of the first one has not been enacted yet. If there was, and it over turned the result of the first one, apart from some premature jubilation on the part of Remainers. ( Because there'd be a demand for a best of 3 from leavers ) If it was final, the disconnect and mistrust of the political Establishment and the democratic process itself would be permanently and generational shattered for milllions of leave voters. They'd either refuse to vote ever again ( why bother voting it doesn't change a thing ?) Or they be tempted to vote for a party that they feel represents them. And you may not like that party one little bit. Either way it wouldn't bode well for an already divided country.

[RingoMcCartney]

How can you ever convince people to pull together if some still think leaving is totally the wrong option?

By pointing out it's the option that respects democracy.

[dsr]

A second referendum would be interesting anyway. Basically, the Remain side has two powerful arguments:

1. The UK is too weak and impoverished to be independent;
2. The EU would be so nasty to us if we left that we'd be better off in where they won't be so nasty.

Neither of those are ringing vote-winners. And part 2 is pretty much the election campaign that the Conservatives ran at the last general election - the idea that you should vote for us because we don't have much idea but the other lot would be worse - and how did that work out?

[Lancasterclaret]

Uh huh

Can't wait till I hear "Leaves" one

- Think this is bad but you just have to remember its all the fault of the remoaners?

[Spijed]

By pointing out it's the option that respects democracy.

If it was the other way round would you then have expected people to be fully behind the EU, without question?

[RingoMcCartney]

And I'm only confrontational to those on here who say stuff that they can't back up.

I said that the money coming backto the UK through the EUs regeneration fund to places like Burnley. Was simply our own money coming back to us. Given we are a net contributor to the EU.

You said "Christ on a bike Ringo!!!! It's not!!!"

I showed you that the ONS and Full Facts said it was indeed our own money coming back .

You refused to just admit you are wrong.

You blocked me!

I bet you've got your name down for James obrians next book.

[Lancasterclaret]

Being serious (again) for a sec

A 2nd referendum is only an option if we are at such an impasse we can't get any deal through parliament.

We are not there yet, but we are a hell of a lot closer than we were because Labour have clarified their position, and the Conservatives seem unable or unwilling to realise that both their rival plans won't get through either.

I repeat again, but in the urge to push for an impossible Brexit, you run the risk of having no Brexit at all (or more likely, one that is in name only)

[RingoMcCartney]

If it was the other way round would you then have expected people to be fully behind the EU, without question?

That's what happened in 1975. When the British People voted to remain, after being taken in WITHOUT a vote.

Their choice was enacted.

And anybody who disagreed were slammed down and told "Shut up! We're in get used to it". That's if they weren't being called swivel eyed loons, racist, little Englander, Nazi, xenophobe......

[dsr]

Uh huh

Can't wait till I hear "Leaves" one

- Think this is bad but you just have to remember its all the fault of the remoaners?

Well one of Leave's campaign points will certainly be to point out that Remain predicted all sorts of bad things that would happen with a leave vote, starting with the Prime Minister remaining in office and an emergency budget next day, and their predictions started going wrong at 8 am on day 1 after the vote. If they now make the same claims again with the caveat "this time we're right", it might not have the same impact.

[Bacchus]

How can you ever convince people to pull together if some still think leaving is totally the wrong option?

I reckon most of the people who think that leaving is the wrong option would have been accepting of the Norway style arrangement that was being touted during the campaign. That was the option that people could have come together around, a sensible compromise that respected the vote, but the Brextremists intentionally made that outcome impossible by forcing May's hand into throwing down a bunch of red lines that could only ever lead to the hardest of Brexits. That is why we're still as divided as ever.

Arguably the best way out of this is if that kind of deal is presented as an option in a further referendum and prevails - at least then everyone can claim some kind of victory and we can all get on with our slightly poorer lives.

[Lancasterclaret]

Surely even you don't believe things like "the minister for stockpiling food and medicines" won't be mentioned, along with all the other things that are there.

Plus all the governments own No deal brexit forecasts that are uniformly bad?

I'd be amazed if leave went down that road to be honest, there is a lot of stuff that kills them.

Like I said, you want Brexit, you've got to find a way to get it through parliament. Which means a deal that enough can vote for that satisfies the referendum result AND satisfies those who worry for the economic future (and not just economic if we are being honest)

Norway option looks the best bet to be honest.

[CombatClaret]

Burnleymik has it right.
It is a metaphor to illustrate that when the gauntlet is down we need to pull together not jockey for position. Nothing to do with rationing... yet

The rationing was a side point, the main one was that with Brexit

We now face a similar potential seismic change to the nation

as that of WWII

threat.jpg (248.39 KiB) Viewed 1925 times