I just knew you’d reply to that post.Greenmile wrote:A rare moment of honesty and self-awareness there. Are you feeling ok?
ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Well it was a (not so) veiled dig at me. What did you expect?Jakubclaret wrote:I just knew you’d reply to that post.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
I think it's a mistake more than wilful ignorance. I wasn't entirely certain myself which is why I asked.Greenmile wrote:I’m pretty sure he’s mixing up the rebate with funding that the EU gives to UK projects. That’s the level of wilful ignorance we’re dealing with here.
This further supports my belief that we were far too uninformed for the referendum if even simple things like this we're still uncertain about.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Hunt has form for gaffes and he even jokes about it,https://www.aol.co.uk/video/view/jeremy ... ccounter=1AndrewJB wrote:Oh good. We've got Jeremy Hunt making a fool out of himself and the country by comparing the EU to the Soviet Union. He's our senior diplomat. And by the way, Stalin killed fifty million of his own people, don't you know?
I thought with Boris stepping down the Foreign Office would improve but clearly not,i have issues with the EU but insulting them in this manner is counterproductive.
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
How about this for an analogy - if someone were to say "the new rules on digital filing of quarterly tax returns will hurt small businesses", would it be untrue just because a few of them are already compliant?Greenmile wrote:5 - if I say “the people living in my house are adults”, would you be surprised if you came round and a child was living there, or would you think “well, he didn’t say ALL the people...”?
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
http://www.theweek.co.uk/91393/how-does ... -its-money" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Greenmile wrote:I’m pretty sure he’s mixing up the rebate with funding that the EU gives to UK projects. That’s the level of wilful ignorance we’re dealing with here.
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
In a previous time his speech would have just been a rabble rouser, and not noticed by anyone, but with modern communications... Unfortunately I think with Brexit occupying inward as well as outward Conservative party thinking, we will see more of this over the week.tiger76 wrote:Hunt has form for gaffes and he even jokes about it,https://www.aol.co.uk/video/view/jeremy ... ccounter=1
I thought with Boris stepping down the Foreign Office would improve but clearly not,i have issues with the EU but insulting them in this manner is counterproductive.
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
I should say too, as a remainer I also have issues with the EU. I’m sure everyone in every country does. But it’s better to have an honest debate than all the hyperbole we have here right now.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
You would've thought someone could proofread this stuff before it gets aired,Hunt is supposed to be on the moderate wing of the Conservatives FGS.AndrewJB wrote:In a previous time his speech would have just been a rabble rouser, and not noticed by anyone, but with modern communications... Unfortunately I think with Brexit occupying inward as well as outward Conservative party thinking, we will see more of this over the week.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
AndrewJB wrote:I should say too, as a remainer I also have issues with the EU. I’m sure everyone in every country does. But it’s better to have an honest debate than all the hyperbole we have here right now.
The problem with that is how are you going to get the EU to reform and change? The leaders all seem to want "more EU".
Macron has suggested and put ideas forward for reform, but has already met with strong resistance from the likes of Merkel. I just can't see it ever happening.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
burnleymik wrote:http://www.theweek.co.uk/91393/how-does ... -its-money
That article quotes someone calling it "broadly correct" that £1 of every £2 we send to the EU comes back with a tag on it. That's bullshit. The figure might be reasonably accurate but i can find nothing that says the rebate comes with stipulations.
Included in the £1 no doubt is the EU spending in the UK + rebate, but I can't find anything to suggest that the rebate comes with spending instructions. And neither can you or you'd have linked a more substantial source than the Chair of Vote Leave.
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Well from within easier than outside it. As a collection of democracies the EU is as susceptible to change as the democracies within it. That’s one of the reasons we joined it.burnleymik wrote:The problem with that is how are you going to get the EU to reform and change? The leaders all seem to want "more EU".
Macron has suggested and put ideas forward for reform, but has already met with strong resistance from the likes of Merkel. I just can't see it ever happening.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Imploding Turtle wrote:That article quotes someone calling it "broadly correct" that £1 of every £2 we send to the EU comes back with a tag on it. That's bullshit. The figure might be reasonably accurate but i can find nothing that says the rebate comes with stipulations.
Included in the £1 no doubt is the EU spending in the UK + rebate, but I can't find anything to suggest that the rebate comes with spending instructions. And neither can you or you'd have linked a more substantial source than the Chair of Vote Leave.
The money is used on projects across the UK, not used by the government on the economy.
https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-memb ... 5-million/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It’s not enough to look at the net contribution in isolation because what we get back isn’t fully under our control.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
burnleymik wrote:The money is used on projects across the UK, not used by the government on the economy.
https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-memb ... 5-million/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The ONS
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governme ... 2017-10-31" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Do not, under any circumstances suggest that it's simply our own money coming back Mick.
You'll get a " Christ on a bike mik! It's not!!!!" From his eminence, the " I do have the unfortunate habit of being right most of the time" fact blocking, Lancaster Claret.
Quotations from the ONS like-
"This included £359 million that CAME BACK through the European Regional Development Fund and £2.4 billion through the Agricultural Guarantee Fund."
Pushed him over the edge. You have been warned.....

This user liked this post: burnleymik
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
burnleymik wrote:The money is used on projects across the UK, not used by the government on the economy.
https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-memb ... 5-million/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That supports my point, and it supports Greenmile's point that Farage lied.
It supports my point because it differentiates between the "rebate" and the money that we get back through EU spending.
And it supports Greenmile's point that Farage was lying when eh says we send £350m/week because it says "The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £17 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day. The rebate is applied straight away (its size is calculated based on the previous year's contributions), so the UK never contributes this much."
So not only do we not have any stipulation on how we spend it, because you're mistaking the rebate for EU spending in the UK, but we don't even send them the money in the first place for it to then come back to us. It's a discount that's applied before we sent them anything.
Farage is a liar, and you're wrong about the rebate.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
It even has a helpful graphic


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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Further evidence that accusations of "Project Fear" was mere projection.


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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
It turns out that your so-called "10%" equates to 17.4 million people. If that were 10% of the populations then the size of the country would need to increase by 290%.Lancasterclaret wrote:He appeals to that 10% who vote UKIP and have er, "interesting" ideas about immigrants.
Which is certainly "interesting" as you put it, instead of "mainstream" as most people would phrase it.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Very helpful of you to have reproduced a graphic produced by the treasury in an attempt to persuade people to vote remain back in 2016 and make out like it was something current from the here and now.Imploding Turtle wrote:It even has a helpful graphic
For example, one of the reasons graphs like this didn't persuade people to vote remain is because however fancifully these figures are dressed up, people understand the much simpler concept that the UK is one of the biggest NET CONTRIBUTORS to the EU.
It didn't work back then, turtlebrains, and it certainly won't dissuade people now.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Well done turtlesImploding Turtle wrote:That supports my point, and it supports Greenmile's point that Farage lied.
It supports my point because it differentiates between the "rebate" and the money that we get back through EU spending.
And it supports Greenmile's point that Farage was lying when eh says we send £350m/week because it says "The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £17 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day. The rebate is applied straight away (its size is calculated based on the previous year's contributions), so the UK never contributes this much."
So not only do we not have any stipulation on how we spend it, because you're mistaking the rebate for EU spending in the UK, but we don't even send them the money in the first place for it to then come back to us. It's a discount that's applied before we sent them anything.
Farage is a liar, and you're wrong about the rebate.
It's crap like this that lost you remainers the debate.
Everybody understands the notion of "net contributor" and nobody, but nobody, understands what the hell you're on about.
Bon nuit.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
It's almost painful to watch someone be this stupid on the internet. Almost.Rowls wrote:Very helpful of you to have reproduced a graphic produced by the treasury in an attempt to persuade people to vote remain back in 2016 and make out like it was something current from the here and now.
For example, one of the reasons graphs like this didn't persuade people to vote remain is because however fancifully these figures are dressed up, people understand the much simpler concept that the UK is one of the biggest NET CONTRIBUTORS to the EU.
It didn't work back then, turtlebrains, and it certainly won't dissuade people now.
I'll let Mik correct you. You might believe it from him.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
I have a tool for parting hair that one of you folicaly challenged folk could own.
Last man standing on the cobbles takes it
Last man standing on the cobbles takes it
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
17.4 million people voted UKIP? You’d have thought they would have some MPs then wouldn’t you?Rowls wrote:It turns out that your so-called "10%" equates to 17.4 million people. If that were 10% of the populations then the size of the country would need to increase by 290%.
Which is certainly "interesting" as you put it, instead of "mainstream" as most people would phrase it.
FPTP must be even less democratic than I thought.
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Here’s a tip for you Rowls. Try reading back a few posts before you join a conversation. Nobody is saying we’re not net contributors - we’ve just been trying to explain to Mik the difference between the rebate and EU funding. (I’m not quite sure he’s got it yet, though)Rowls wrote:Very helpful of you to have reproduced a graphic produced by the treasury in an attempt to persuade people to vote remain back in 2016 and make out like it was something current from the here and now.
For example, one of the reasons graphs like this didn't persuade people to vote remain is because however fancifully these figures are dressed up, people understand the much simpler concept that the UK is one of the biggest NET CONTRIBUTORS to the EU.
It didn't work back then, turtlebrains, and it certainly won't dissuade people now.
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Yes. Especially if 71% of them were already compliant.dsr wrote:How about this for an analogy - if someone were to say "the new rules on digital filing of quarterly tax returns will hurt small businesses", would it be untrue just because a few of them are already compliant?
What if someone said “small businesses must comply with these new rules”? Would you, as a hypothetical small business owner think “probably doesn’t apply to me, after all they didn’t say ALL small businesses, so they must just mean some of them.”
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
So, by your own figures, we get about half of what we pay back. Like every one already knows, what's the point?Imploding Turtle wrote:It even has a helpful graphic
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
It turns out that your so-called "10%" equates to 17.4 million people. If that were 10% of the populations then the size of the country would need to increase by 290%.
Which is certainly "interesting" as you put it, instead of "mainstream" as most people would phrase it.
The 10% represents the amount of people who voted for UKIP at their peak when Farage was leader. There is a reason why he now presents a radio show and keeps threatening to come back, rather than actually coming back.
He's a busted flush
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
When a politician says "small businesses will suffer as a result of this measure", he doesn't necessarily mean all small businesses. Depending on context, it may mean 100% or it may just mean a significant number.Greenmile wrote:Yes. Especially if 71% of them were already compliant.
What if someone said “small businesses must comply with these new rules”? Would you, as a hypothetical small business owner think “probably doesn’t apply to me, after all they didn’t say ALL small businesses, so they must just mean some of them.”
You can't extrapolate an English grammar rule and say that it how it works now and always in all circumstances. The English language is a lot more nuanced than that.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Those weren't "my" figures. Those are figures provided, via link, by one of your lot claiming that the EU directs us how to spend our "rebate".ClaretMoffitt wrote:So, by your own figures, we get about half of what we pay back. Like every one already knows, what's the point?
I recommend that if you and Rowls are going to poke your nose into the middle of other people's conversations then you should scroll back a bit to get a fuller understanding of what's being discussed lest you look like a fool.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Of course Farage lied and stretched the truth over leaving the EU, even to the point that we could stay in the single market without free movement of people. His claims about Turkey joining (or the EU wanting Turkey to join by 2021) are now demonstrably false. His insistence that we pay £350 Million a week into the EU, as though it's money just thrown into a pit, is utter bo11ocks. And frankly a politician who stands in front of a poster of a long queue of refugees, and claims to not be racist should really ad the caveat: "but I'm entirely comfortable using racist imagery, and provoking racism" The idea that seventeen odd million people voted for him is great news for the Green Party, which garnered slightly fewer votes.
As for this ludicrous; "we are a net contributor to the EU" - well only if you ignore the value of membership. And EU money spent here goes into the local economy holding the same value as money spent by the UK government.
Brexit is a huge opportunity. For businesses in the EU that compete against British businesses within Europe.
As for this ludicrous; "we are a net contributor to the EU" - well only if you ignore the value of membership. And EU money spent here goes into the local economy holding the same value as money spent by the UK government.
Brexit is a huge opportunity. For businesses in the EU that compete against British businesses within Europe.
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
This has got to be my favourite post of the entire thread.Jakubclaret wrote:You just know it's coming, you couldn't find a more sincere honest gentleman than Nigel if you tried, it's hilarious people knocking him because he will always come back stronger.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Show me where Farage said we pay 350m a week to the EU.AndrewJB wrote:Of course Farage lied and stretched the truth over leaving the EU, even to the point that we could stay in the single market without free movement of people. His claims about Turkey joining (or the EU wanting Turkey to join by 2021) are now demonstrably false. His insistence that we pay £350 Million a week into the EU, as though it's money just thrown into a pit, is utter bo11ocks. And frankly a politician who stands in front of a poster of a long queue of refugees, and claims to not be racist should really ad the caveat: "but I'm entirely comfortable using racist imagery, and provoking racism" The idea that seventeen odd million people voted for him is great news for the Green Party, which garnered slightly fewer votes.
As for this ludicrous; "we are a net contributor to the EU" - well only if you ignore the value of membership. And EU money spent here goes into the local economy holding the same value as money spent by the UK government.
Brexit is a huge opportunity. For businesses in the EU that compete against British businesses within Europe.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
A fine, sincere post. As said previously.Jakubclaret wrote:you couldn't find a more sincere honest gentleman than Nigel if you tried, it's hilarious people knocking him because he will always come back stronger.
Has got to be my favourite post of the entire thread as well.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
" EU money spent here "AndrewJB wrote:Of course Farage lied and stretched the truth over leaving the EU, even to the point that we could stay in the single market without free movement of people. His claims about Turkey joining (or the EU wanting Turkey to join by 2021) are now demonstrably false. His insistence that we pay £350 Million a week into the EU, as though it's money just thrown into a pit, is utter bo11ocks. And frankly a politician who stands in front of a poster of a long queue of refugees, and claims to not be racist should really ad the caveat: "but I'm entirely comfortable using racist imagery, and provoking racism" The idea that seventeen odd million people voted for him is great news for the Green Party, which garnered slightly fewer votes.
As for this ludicrous; "we are a net contributor to the EU" - well only if you ignore the value of membership. And EU money spent here goes into the local economy holding the same value as money spent by the UK government.
Brexit is a huge opportunity. For businesses in the EU that compete against British businesses within Europe.

Oh dear. Andrews come over all Lancaster Claret and believes there's an EU money tree.!
It's our money coming back.
"We can be pretty sure about how much cash we put in, but it’s far harder to be sure about how much, IF ANYTHING, comes back in economic benefits." Full Facts, an independent facts providng charity.
"it's reasonable to describe £55 million as our ‘membership fee’, but it ignores the fact that we get money BACK as well.” Full Facts, an independent facts providing charity.
"The UK gets money back.
The government then gets some of that money back, mainly through payments to farmers and for poorer areas of the country such as Wales and Cornwall." Full Facts, an independent facts providing charity.
https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-memb ... 5-million/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"But this only accounts for the money that the UK pays to the EU – some of this £13.9 billion is credited BACK to the UK public sector, of which a proportion is then paid to the private sector." Office for National Statistics
"ONS reports that £4.4 billion CAME BACK to the UK public sector and private sector in credits in 2016." Office for National Statistics
"Given these figures, ONS reports that the UK government's net contribution to the EU - that is the difference between the money it paid to the EU and the money it received BACK - was £9.4 billion in 2016 as compared with the £18.9 billion gross contribution" The Office For national statistics.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governme ... 2017-10-31" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Conclusion, supported by impartial, non partisan opinion and accounted for, universally agreed tangible figures. -
It's our money coming back.
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
I can only find this one where he says it's £385m (so a bit more wrong).claretandy wrote:Show me where Farage said we pay 350m a week to the EU.
https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expre ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
He calls it a membership fee, he doesn't say we pay 350m a year.aggi wrote:I can only find this one where he says it's £385m (so a bit more wrong).
https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expre ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
He says It costs £55million every single day to be a member of this European Union.. However you want to argue it, that is factually incorrect.claretandy wrote:He calls it a membership fee, he doesn't say we pay 350m a year.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
You are going to have to tell me what the brain functions are behind "Ok, he's lying but because he's on my side of the argument, I have to defend him, even when it makes me look really stupid" defence to be perfectly honest.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Watch out Andrew, you'll get slated for talking common sense on this threadAndrewJB wrote:Of course Farage lied and stretched the truth over leaving the EU, even to the point that we could stay in the single market without free movement of people. His claims about Turkey joining (or the EU wanting Turkey to join by 2021) are now demonstrably false. His insistence that we pay £350 Million a week into the EU, as though it's money just thrown into a pit, is utter bo11ocks. And frankly a politician who stands in front of a poster of a long queue of refugees, and claims to not be racist should really ad the caveat: "but I'm entirely comfortable using racist imagery, and provoking racism" The idea that seventeen odd million people voted for him is great news for the Green Party, which garnered slightly fewer votes.
As for this ludicrous; "we are a net contributor to the EU" - well only if you ignore the value of membership. And EU money spent here goes into the local economy holding the same value as money spent by the UK government.
Brexit is a huge opportunity. For businesses in the EU that compete against British businesses within Europe.



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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
One can talk about membership fees, rebates and EU contributions & support schemes (f.ex. Interreg), but one could also highlight the income and advantages of the free trade zone, the many European companies with offices and facilities in the UK, ...
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
lying, or slightly exaggerating ?Lancasterclaret wrote:You are going to have to tell me what the brain functions are behind "Ok, he's lying but because he's on my side of the argument, I have to defend him, even when it makes me look really stupid" defence to be perfectly honest.
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Lyingclaretandy wrote:lying, or slightly exaggerating ?
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
By that logic, you can never accuse anyone of lying about anything, because nuance or context or something.dsr wrote:When a politician says "small businesses will suffer as a result of this measure", he doesn't necessarily mean all small businesses. Depending on context, it may mean 100% or it may just mean a significant number.
You can't extrapolate an English grammar rule and say that it how it works now and always in all circumstances. The English language is a lot more nuanced than that.
I’m not sure whether 29% is a significant number anyway.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Its lying andy.
Come on, you know he is.
Come on, you know he is.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Is it factoring in everything? If Nigel has give a inaccurate figure I doubt very much that’s intentional. Whatever the figure it’s penny too much I don’t see what we get back from this prestiged club membership, more negatives than positives when you weight it up.aggi wrote:He says It costs £55million every single day to be a member of this European Union.. However you want to argue it, that is factually incorrect.
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Either lying or ignorance (which wouldn't be acceptable given his role). It's not as if the rebate isn't widely known about and glossing over £4,000,000,000 per annum is a bit more than a slight exaggeration.claretandy wrote:lying, or slightly exaggerating ?
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
Translation: No matter what you say i'm going to find a way to excuse Farage for his dishonesty.Jakubclaret wrote:Is it factoring in everything? If Nigel has give a inaccurate figure I doubt very much that’s intentional. Whatever the figure it’s penny too much I don’t see what we get back from this prestiged club membership, more negatives than positives when you weight it up.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
I’m sorry I never realised you made any mistakes we must all be inferior.Imploding Turtle wrote:Translation: No matter what you say i'm going to find a way to excuse Farage for his dishonesty.
Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
********. It's wilful misrepresentation. He's an MEP (albeit a lazy one who can't be bothered to turn up); if he doesn't know the figures including the rebate then he's incompetent. Think of the stick Diane Abbott got for not knowing her numbers, if Farage isn't lying then the "mistake" he has made is much, much larger than that.Jakubclaret wrote:Is it factoring in everything? If Nigel has give a inaccurate figure I doubt very much that’s intentional. Whatever the figure it’s penny too much I don’t see what we get back from this prestiged club membership, more negatives than positives when you weight it up.
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Re: ignorance of Nigel Farage exposed
You & others never seem to acknowledge Nigel’s good points, he played a large part in helping the referendums result & now is continuing the fight. Some people aren’t bothered about numbers they just want to leave the EU ASAP that’s all they bothered about.aggi wrote:********. It's wilful misrepresentation. He's an MEP (albeit a lazy one who can't be bothered to turn up); if he doesn't know the figures including the rebate then he's incompetent. Think of the stick Diane Abbott got for not knowing her numbers, if Farage isn't lying then the "mistake" he has made is much, much larger than that.