Time for Dyche to leave

EarbyClaret · Post by **EarbyClaret** » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:44 pm

The situation - on here at least - does seem to polarize opinion along similar lines to Brexit - I'm not making a political statement either way, just a comparison.

One the one hand it's difficult to make a compelling argument for the status quo when everyone is in broad agreement to a greater or lesser extent that things are quite obviously not right.

On one side of the argument you've got 'remain' - keep things as they are, the best way forward is to let the existing management team work through the issues and see if they can get us to a place we want to be. Despite the current bad patch there's a lot of credit in the bank and no-one can put forward a convincing argument that a change would be for the better.

On the other side. It's not working. We don't really know what the future holds if we go 'exit' - but with our past achievements and our potential we'll take a chance because it can't be any worse than it is now.

The second scenario - it could go either way - better or worse.

Better - how much better than it is now can it realistically get?
Worse - the Championship and League One are littered with evidence.

Whatever anyone on here thinks those running the club appear very definitely in the 'risk averse' camp - so I'd suggest it would need to be a whole lot worse than it is now - probably to the point of damaging the painstakingly built infrastructure before there was even a hint of a change.

brexit · Post by **brexit** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:13 am

entitas ipsa involvit aptitudinem ad extorquendum certum assensum

jojomk1 · Post by **jojomk1** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:44 am

NL Claret wrote:You've listed a long list of players who cost millions to sign and earn millions of pounds over the course of their contract. Well beyond our budget. This is burnley not football manager.

The idea of mentioning individual players was just to show how most Prem managers adopt a formation that includes holding midfield players - something which appears beyond the thoughts of SD

He could have brought in players (not maybe of the same calibre) to also play that system

Either he is right or the rest are - I'll leave that for you to judge

jlup1980 · Post by **jlup1980** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:28 am

I've posted this on another thread but I'll throw it on here as well. I'm not saying he should go. I'm on the fence at the moment but performances like Monday are making me wonder whether we need a change to freshen things up.

Statistically in 2018 we've played 38 competitive games and we've won 7 of them in 90 mins. That's a win rate of 18%. Why are people shocked that some fans are turning their backs on Sean? Also, it's worth noting that 5 of those wins came by mid April meaning we've actually won 2 in 24. It doesn't take a genius to work out something isn't right. We've got seven tough games between now and the new year so it's highly likely we'll have 2 wins from 31 matches.

Again, I'm not saying he should go, but looking at the stats, how long do you leave it be before making that call!?

ewanrob · Post by **ewanrob** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:08 am

I don't think anyone would really want him to go, but we can not jeopardize our status in this league and therefore you'd think a decision will have to be taken before the Jan transfer window. Do we trust Sean to buy and get us out of this, or do we need someone else.

Burtonwoodclaret · Post by **Burtonwoodclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:12 am

ewanrob wrote:I don't think anyone would really want him to go, but we can not jeopardize our status in this league and therefore you'd think a decision will have to be taken before the Jan transfer window. Do we trust Sean to buy and get us out of this, or do we need someone else.

What about the role of p0ur new Technical director in both recruitment and football matters ?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:14 am

Thing is, three teams go down whatever happens.

We are not playing well, players are well out of form but we are also not getting any luck at all. Crucial deflections at 2-2 at West Ham and 0-0 v Newcastle back that up.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:18 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Thing is, three teams go down whatever happens.

We are not playing well, players are well out of form but we are also not getting any luck at all. Crucial deflections at 2-2 at West Ham and 0-0 v Newcastle back that up.

I don't think it's luck we need. We have been outplayed in every game this season bar the first hour at Southampton.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:20 am

I think its silly to think that luck isn't playing a part.

I know what I felt like when that shot went in off Mee yesterday. Its bound to be having an effect on the players as well.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:36 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Thing is, three teams go down whatever happens.

We are not playing well, players are well out of form but we are also not getting any luck at all. Crucial deflections at 2-2 at West Ham and 0-0 v Newcastle back that up.

To be fair, you make your own luck in football. Playing in the opposition's half helps with that.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:38 am

No, I get that but its very small margins that can make a difference when we are playing against teams of a similar standard to us (ie everyone except the top six0

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:41 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:No, I get that but its very small margins that can make a difference when we are playing against teams of a similar standard to us (ie everyone except the top six0

I get where you are coming from, but I don't think there are 13 sides with whom we can compete on the pitch right now.
We all know there's something very wrong at present, to blame our situation on SD's "fine margins" is trivialising the problem. We are poor.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:44 am

We certainly are, but its always going to be about the "fine margins" at this level for us.

We need to be improving in all areas (no one is arguing anything else) but we'll probably need a bit of luck for it to change around as well as lots and lots and lots of hard work.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:48 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:We certainly are, but its always going to be about the "fine margins" at this level for us.

We need to be improving in all areas (no one is arguing anything else) but we'll probably need a bit of luck for it to change around as well as lots and lots and lots of hard work.

Out of interest, do you think all the players are doing their absolute best for the manager?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:55 am

I think they are all working as hard as they possibly can, but they are seriously lacking in confidence.

I don't think he's lost the dressing room, but I think he's probably sticking with players who aren't in the sort of form to justify that sort of support.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:00 am

fair enough.
I'm seeing what in my opinion is a lack of discipline. Strange after the well organised team that we have become used to.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:03 am

It is very hard to watch and not think "jesus, there were not all those holes last season"

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:12 am

I very much appreciate what Sean Dyche has done for the club (on and off the field) and I hope he can turn our poor form around. However, I'm not convinced that he's capable of doing so. I think a lot of it rests on how much he's backed in the January transfer window. I'm still unclear as to whether our failings in the transfer market are more down to a lack of financial backing, Dyche being too picky and stubborn or a bit of both.

I do think something has gone wrong behind the scenes. I've said several times this season that this team doesn't look like a Sean Dyche team. Yes, it plays like one (the play style) but I don't think we've seen maximum effort from everyone this season. There's something amiss. It may be a lack of confidence or it could be that something has happened and the players are no longer willing to run through walls for Dyche.

Perhaps Dyche has taken us as far as he can (7th in the PL is probably as good as it realistically gets for us). While I'd be sorry to see him go, I wouldn't be too upset. All good things come to an end at some point and performances and results haven't been good for a while now.

ewanrob · Post by **ewanrob** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:22 am

[quote="Burtonwoodclaret"]What about the role of p0ur new Technical director in both recruitment and football matters ?[/quote
Two things, TD he is very late coming into his position..so we dont know what he can do in such a short space of time. Secondly, I suspect SD is a bit of a control freak (nowt wrong with that), so I am sure he will still have a major input into the choices.

Listen, I think hes brilliant and the very thought of him not being our manager is not something that sits well with me...but this is about the welfare of our Club and not the individual & if he looks to be failing then a decision will need to be taken.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:29 am

It's all well and good going on about fine margins but it works both ways. How many games have we nicked by the odd goal under Dyche and we've come off thinking how the hell have we won that?

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:29 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I think its silly to think that luck isn't playing a part.

I know what I felt like when that shot went in off Mee yesterday. Its bound to be having an effect on the players as well.

We were very lucky to win at Cardiff and very lucky to get a point at Leicester. Very lucky to only lose 1-0 at Wolves etc

IanMcL · Post by **IanMcL** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:35 am

deanothedino wrote:"Tiny Burnley" Embarrassing to see a fellow Claret type that. Certainly don't seem tiny when I mention us to the older generation around the country when I meet them and they talk about the great Clarets teams of their youth.

When pay was the same wherever you played.

The town is miniscule, to support a prem team. Being there 3 times, so far, in the modern era, is a triple miracle.

The club and town combination is massive, in football terms but the catchment nothing like the big towns and cities. C'est la vie.

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:37 am

jrgbfc wrote:It's all well and good going on about fine margins but it works both ways. How many games have we nicked by the odd goal under Dyche and we've come off thinking how the hell have we won that?

Loads, which is why last season's results/achievements aren't sustainable and we're back to being in a relegation battle as our budget relative to the rest of the league dictates.

There's a ton of luck/variance involved in football.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:37 am

Well, that isn't a shot going in off someones block is it to be fair?

Cardiff - two bad teams and we looked the better one
Leicester - deserved a point
Wolves - very poor, but again only conceded one goal because normally when we play badly, we tend to stay in the game (which is what we have done under Dyche consistently)

There is no argument that we are not playing well but luck is a factor in football. At the moment I feel like we are not getting the rub of the green, which isn't helping us.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:42 am

Once you accept that if we win or draw - we were lucky, lose - we are ****, every team is better than us, Dyche has lost the dressing room, all the players are unhappy, not played well in 12 months, all we do is hoof it and nobody will sign in January it becomes easier to get through this patch, especially when despite all this we are still out the relegation zone.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:43 am

The season before last we wee on the wrong side of fine margins. This season we have been on the right side of them generally. We have been lucky to pick up the points we have and we are lucky the goal difference is not a whole lot worse. I've not seen a poorer team in this league. The players whilst not world beaters are better than this and I don't think they are buying into what Dyche is telling them.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:43 am

The PL is moving on and we are standing still.

There is no point in signing players who aren't BETTER than we already have.

If we won't/can't look at players in the £20 - 30 million quality range then we are unlikely to improve - unless we recruit a brilliant European scout and we find a way to persuade European players to sign for 'little old Burnley'.

The other 'hope' is that we once again become a brilliant youth coaching club and we build our future team around them e.g. Crewe

Very difficult challenges for ANY Burnley manager and the problems would be the same whoever is in charge.

That being said, the current squad are obviously under performing tactically and that is SD's responsibility to sort out.

Blackrod · Post by **Blackrod** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:44 am

Sorry I don't mean the season before last I mean the PL relegation season when we were in games and narrowly losing.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:50 am

I don't know how to respond to that Lancaster but I think you're looking through claret specs there.

Home Team Leicester Away Team Burnley
Possession Home 63% Away37%
Shots Home 22 Away 6
Shots on Target Home5 Away 1
Corners Home 12 Away 1
Fouls Home 13 Away10

Home Team Cardiff Away Team Burnley
Possession Home 54% Away 46%
Shots Home 20 Away 3
Shots on Target Home 5 Away 2
Corners Home 10 Away 2
Fouls Home 11 Away 15

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:57 am

I watched both games Quick.

Look, no one is pretending that we are playing well at the moment. But we are not as bad as people on here are saying and the squad is still the same as last season which did so well.

There isn't a lot wrong, its up to the manager to tweak it to sort it out and on Monday night the crucial first goal took a horrid deflection. That is the reality.

We then conceded another goal, and then created enough chances to win the game, yet alone draw it (and they had chances as well). It is small margins and hard work that will get us out of this.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:07 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:I watched both games Quick.

Look, no one is pretending that we are playing well at the moment. But we are not as bad as people on here are saying and the squad is still the same as last season which did so well.

There isn't a lot wrong, its up to the manager to tweak it to sort it out and on Monday night the crucial first goal took a horrid deflection. That is the reality.

We then conceded another goal, and then created enough chances to win the game, yet alone draw it (and they had chances as well). It is small margins and hard work that will get us out of this.

As did I and we were bad in both on the eye and stats to back it up.

22 shots to 3 isn't small margins it's the bloody Alamo.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:27 am

You watched the Cardiff match and thought Cardiff deserved to win?

Leicester were good first half, but we were the better side second.

And we conceded lots of shots in the prem, we always have

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:35 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:You watched the Cardiff match and thought Cardiff deserved to win?

Leicester were good first half, but we were the better side second.

And we conceded lots of shots in the prem, we always have

I thought Cardiff were by far the better side against us as well tbh. Can't comment about Leicester but to me even the likes of Huddersfield and Newcastle have looked far better than us which is the most worrying thing.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:42 am

Can't disagree that Huddersfield should have won, that was our worst performance for years.

Can easily disagree (as above) that Newcastle should have

No doubt that things are not great, but it does come down to whether you think SD can change it around (most of us are in that camp) or that some unspecified new manager can.

kentonclaret · Post by **kentonclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:47 am

To say that Newcastle "had chances as well" in the second half is surely a tongue in cheek understatement.

They waltzed through a static defence and missed "the sitter of the season" thus far, so much so that they couldn't stop replaying it to see how he didn't score, and they also hit the post.

Those who are predicting that Dyche can turn things around are probably the same posters who predicted a comfortable mid table top half finish with never a fear of relegation.

claretonthecoast1882 · Post by **claretonthecoast1882** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:48 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:I don't know how to respond to that Lancaster but I think you're looking through claret specs there.

Home Team Leicester Away Team Burnley
Possession Home 63% Away37%
Shots Home 22 Away 6
Shots on Target Home5 Away 1
Corners Home 12 Away 1
Fouls Home 13 Away10

Home Team Cardiff Away Team Burnley
Possession Home 54% Away 46%
Shots Home 20 Away 3
Shots on Target Home 5 Away 2
Corners Home 10 Away 2
Fouls Home 11 Away 15

28% Possession 72%
6 Shots On 3
3 Corners 3
10 Fouls 12

Clearly as these stats show there is no chance the home side won this game 4 - 1

IndigoLake · Post by **IndigoLake** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:59 am

Quickenthetempo wrote:We were very lucky to win at Cardiff and very lucky to get a point at Leicester. Very lucky to only lose 1-0 at Wolves etc

The performances versus Cardiff and Huddersfield were a tipping point for me. I just thought they were absolutely dire.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:02 pm

How were we very lucky against Leicester?

kaptin1 · Post by **kaptin1** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:03 pm

The problem is fairly simple I think. We are lacking confidence, hence taking the easy option (backwards, sideways passes) when in possession and making silly mistakes that are costing us goals. The manager and players haven't suddenly become crap overnight but the burden of overachieving last year is weighing heavily on them. The fans are understandably frustrated and this is creating a vicious circle. Its hard to change the mentality, even with hard work, and sometimes you just need a bit of luck. Unfortunately, we are now deep into the season with few points on the board and are consequently trying to play catch up. Contrast last season when we had a few excellent early season results, which put us ahead of the curve, gave us confidence and allowed us to relax and play.

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:10 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:We certainly are, but its always going to be about the "fine margins" at this level for us.

We need to be improving in all areas (no one is arguing anything else) but we'll probably need a bit of luck for it to change around as well as lots and lots and lots of hard work.

Your point about 'luck' doesn't really hold water. Luck occurs at both ends of the pitch and we were very lucky on Monday night not to concede more than two goals. In many other games this season 'luck' has been on our side with so many teams dominating throughout the game but fortunately for us not turning that possession into scorelines that would be embarrassing.
Neither do I get the 'lots and lots and lots' of hard work. Do you mean longer hours on the training pitch, more drills, more team talks/bonding? If these were to bring about a change in performance or results then I'm 100% behind it but I don't believe that to be the case or solution to our problems. I posted my feelings yesterday(for what they are worth) having left some time after Monday's debacle for the dust to settle. 24 hours on and I still believe that the manager has reached an impasse with his players. We might.get that bit of 'luck' you believe is missing on Saturday; I hope we do but the harsh reality is I expect us to lose. Fixtures come thick and fast after that and we risk being well adrift by the time the January window is opened. Then again we might get lucky. We'll certainly need it in bucket loads.

Quickenthetempo · Post by **Quickenthetempo** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:23 pm

That Newcastle miss from right behind the goal lookee like it had gone through the netting like you sometimes get in Sunday league.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:51 pm

To be fair the game on Monday was the sort we were nicking 1 nil last season. But if your only real game plan is keep a clean sheet and nick one from somewhere if you start leaking goals you are in massive trouble. Has Dyche shown anything in his 6 years to suggest he is capable or willing to adapt his style a bit? For me the answer is sadly no.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:57 pm

Thats harsh and untrue jrgfc

4-5-1 was absolutely outstanding for us, and I'm struggling to see why we are not playing it now.

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:11 pm

Spijed wrote:How were we very lucky against Leicester?

Leicester dominated us in first half and we defended well. Second half their players looked really flat - hardly any wonder after a very tough week for them including flying out to Thailand.
The “luck” we had was playing them that weekend.

When people were saying that we looked back to our hard to beat last seasons form my view was that we needed to see how we did in the next game to understand whether the Leicester game was a one off. I think Monday probably told us the answer.

I am definitely not for getting rid of Dyche. He deserves a lot more credit and time to turn things round than he is getting from some of our fans. I think vast majority of fans do not want to lose the best manager we have had in the last 40 plus years. I’d rather get relegated and stay loyal to him than sack him now.

As much as I dislike this season I always thought we were going to get relegated at some point - as other than the big 6 or 7 teams every other team has been relegated or spent many years in the bottom divisions in the case of teams like Bournemouth.

I’d rather it not be this season - especially after last year....and we ain’t down yet.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:20 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Thats harsh and untrue jrgfc

4-5-1 was absolutely outstanding for us, and I'm struggling to see why we are not playing it now.

Maybe so, but we were still massively dependent on getting the first goal and then frustrating the opposition. If we go behind and have to chase a game we look absolutely clueless.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:22 pm

jrgbfc wrote:Maybe so, but we were still massively dependent on getting the first goal and then frustrating the opposition. If we go behind and have to chase a game we look absolutely clueless.

That's probably why the Huddersfield result was so disappointing. Once we'd taken the lead I'm sure everyone thought we would see out the game comfortably, regardless of how much of the ball they had.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:22 pm

No doubt the need for the first goal is a big factor, but I reckon if someone could be arsed to check the bottom 10, that would be true for all of them.

vinrogue · Post by **vinrogue** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:28 pm

If he stays or leaves so be it, but I am preparing myself for an early bird season ticket offer that is frozen yet again with the added incentive of getting to see 23 games and a hell of a lot of them at 3pm on a Saturday, happy days....oh hang on.....23 games!

Royboyclaret · Post by **Royboyclaret** » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:34 pm

Has he left yet ?