Will dyche ever

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:20 am

Tall Paul wrote:Yes

Why? Again without mentioning money. I'm not being in any way contraversial I'm just trying to understand why, taking away the money, anyone would want to continually play for nothing other than survival when there MAY be a more 'enjoyable' alternative.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:28 am

TVC15 wrote:Hopefully they are not the only 2 options we have.
Might seem like that for a lot of this season but pretty much the same team played some decent stuff last year and whilst finishing 7th was a one off we are capable of playing good football and staying in the league.

Dyche is never going to be epansive like Howe but I am sure a lot of fans enjoyed and were proud of the way we defended last year...it’s not as exciting as scoring goals of course but watching Tarks and Mee doing a brilliant block or Heaton or Pope making great saves still gets the crowd going when we hang on for a point or a narrow win.

Most fans I know prefer us to be battling it out in the Prem League and confounding the odds when we can. Even losing in the manner we did against Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool can be enjoyable as long as we are picking up points against the lower teams.
getting thrashed home or away has been hard to watch this year...but there are plenty of teams in this league who have to experience this on a regular basis

Nice answer. I don't mind defensive football, it is an art in itself and that doesn't bother me as such but when it isn't working, as in this season so far, then it becomes a bit of a chore to watch.
I want us to stay in the top flight, absolutely I do, and maybe there will come a time when things get better (apart from yesterday we have been improving of late) so who knows, but I'd hate to think that the sum total of our ambition for the next 10 years would be to finish 17th in a 20 team league, but many on here seem to be happy with that and I'm just struggling to understand the thinking behind it (other than the money, which shouldn't be the main motivating factor in a sport surely).

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:29 am

Essentially all we are doing now is treading water until we get relegated again. Can't understand anyone not wanting us to have a go in the Cups.

brigante · Post by **brigante** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:29 am

mickleoverclaret wrote:You could just as easily argue that focusing on the balance sheet, staying in the league and continuing to pick up £100m+ every year is part of a longer term focus on winning trophies. If the club earns and spends that money wisely over the next few years it builds itself into a solid mid-table outfit capable of carrying squads that can fight on multiple fronts and have a proper crack at winning some trophies.

If a cup run this season is the difference between staying up and going down (and i'm aware that it isn't, necessarily, but i'm speaking hypothetically) we could get to the semis, lose to Chelsea, get relegated, and not be in a position to have a crack at a trophy because all our best players have gone and we've got another 46 game slog in the lower leagues.

What the club is doing now, you could argue, is sacrificing the opportunity for success in the cups for a longer-term focus on being the sort of club that can have a proper go at winning trophies (although, of course, such opportunities are few and far between for clubs like ours, and much less for your bizarrely cited example of Accrington, so it's difficult to really get too upset about it, IMO). It's not easy to do when you're watching us roll over and get pummelled by City or even Burton, but you've got to take a more sensible, long term and realistic view, and i'd suggest that's what the club is doing.

Nail on the head

TVC15 · Post by **TVC15** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:45 am

houseboy wrote:Nice answer. I don't mind defensive football, it is an art in itself and that doesn't bother me as such but when it isn't working, as in this season so far, then it becomes a bit of a chore to watch.
I want us to stay in the top flight, absolutely I do, and maybe there will come a time when things get better (apart from yesterday we have been improving of late) so who knows, but I'd hate to think that the sum total of our ambition for the next 10 years would be to finish 17th in a 20 team league, but many on here seem to be happy with that and I'm just struggling to understand the thinking behind it (other than the money, which shouldn't be the main motivating factor in a sport surely).

I think it’s become a bit of an overused cliche for a dozen teams in the league this getting to 40 points or finishing 17th.

For someone like Cardiff or Huddersfield that is their realistic ambition because they both have essentially championship teams and relatively low wage budgets. But if you are Wolves or Fulham you do not spend £100m on players and aim to finish 17th - the managers may say that to the public but I doubt very much when the owner is agreeing the signings and players huge contracts that is what the manager is saying to the owner or vice versa.

Now we have established a side worth £150m ourselves despite what SD says to the media - finishing 17th every year is not our ambition or 5 year plan....it’s just the minimum requirement.

Nobody at Burnley - fans, players, directors, manager etc want to finish 17th every year or approaches how we run the club with an aim to finish 17th. Of course we would take that this year....but at some point soon we either go down or the manager moves on or we change our recruitment strategy etc etc. In the history of the premier league no team finishes 17th continuously !!

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:49 am

houseboy wrote:Why? Again without mentioning money. I'm not being in any way contraversial I'm just trying to understand why, taking away the money, anyone would want to continually play for nothing other than survival when there MAY be a more 'enjoyable' alternative.

Because I want to watch the team playing at the highest level it's possible to play at. The ambition isn't just to finish 17th, it's to finish as high as we possibly can, but the first target has always to be to avoid relegation.

It was a bit of a loaded question anyway and by adding your stipulation it becomes much more difficult to give a detailed answer.

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:06 pm

TVC15 wrote:I think it’s become a bit of an overused cliche for a dozen teams in the league this getting to 40 points or finishing 17th.

For someone like Cardiff or Huddersfield that is their realistic ambition because they both have essentially championship teams and relatively low wage budgets. But if you are Wolves or Fulham you do not spend £100m on players and aim to finish 17th - the managers may say that to the public but I doubt very much when the owner is agreeing the signings and players huge contracts that is what the manager is saying to the owner or vice versa.

Now we have established a side worth £150m ourselves despite what SD says to the media - finishing 17th every year is not our ambition or 5 year plan....it’s just the minimum requirement.

Nobody at Burnley - fans, players, directors, manager etc want to finish 17th every year or approaches how we run the club with an aim to finish 17th. Of course we would take that this year....but at some point soon we either go down or the manager moves on or we change our recruitment strategy etc etc. In the history of the premier league no team finishes 17th continuously !!

Agree totally. There has to come a time when expectations have to grow (perhaps ours have grown too fast after last year to be fair) or things stagnate, without dynamism there can only be stagnation so hopefully that will happen. If it doesn't then, eventually, there would HAVE to be change. Whether that change was for better or worse who knows but people shouldn't be afraid of change because the outcome is unknown. Here's hoping we survive this season (I actually think we will with a certain amount of comfort) but if we do the board need to have a very serious re-think about recruitment policy and stop recruiting for the possibility of relegation.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:10 pm

claptrappers_union wrote:I want Sean Dyche (no matter which league we’re in next season) to say :-

I’ve been at this club 7 years, we’ve not had a decent cup run. It’s time we had a cup run.

Yeah it'd be great if he said that. Then what if we drew Man City away in the third round?

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:17 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Because I want to watch the team playing at the highest level it's possible to play at. The ambition isn't just to finish 17th, it's to finish as high as we possibly can, but the first target has always to be to avoid relegation.

It was a bit of a loaded question anyway and by adding your stipulation it becomes much more difficult to give a detailed answer.

Sorry about the loaded question but it was intended because I wanted to try to get answers that didn't include things like 'think of all the money we make' etc. because I don't see the club as the Bank of Burnley FC as some seem to do.

I agree that we should play at the highest level but my worry would be that if we had an annual relegation fight crowds would fall off and not because of 'plastic' fans but because football is a sport and an entertainment, it's not just about loyalty, and maybe people would start thinking 'I can't do this anymore' especially when you consider the cost.

Thanks for the reply though because I just wanted to understand what, other than money, motivated people with regard to this PL survival thing and why many consider 'throwing' cup games in favour of it was okay when cup games may (and probably do) represent the only chance of major silverware for the vast majority of clubs. And it's not just Burnley, it's probably every club outside the top 6 (with a couple of exceptions).

fatboy47 · Post by **fatboy47** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:20 pm

Lot of tripe on here.

Burnley FC....top flight team. You'd need to be a complete wazzock to not value that.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:22 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Yeah it'd be great if he said that. Then what if we drew Man City away in the third round?

Like last year? Last year we had a go and fell short. This year we didn't have a go. I prefer watching Burnley when they're trying to win, even if it doesn't work out.

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:28 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Yeah it'd be great if he said that. Then what if we drew Man City away in the third round?

Thats ok, at least give it a go... and when I say cup run that includes the League Cup too. I'm not expecting us to win anything, but to get a Quarter or Semi-Final would be great.

In both competitions we have knocked out by Sheffield Wednesday, Port Vale, Lincoln City, Burton Albion and Accrington Stanley all under Sean Dyche.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:29 pm

claptrappers_union wrote:Thats ok, at least give it a go... and when I say cup run that includes the League Cup too. I'm not expecting us to win anything, but to get a Quarter or Semi-Final would be great.

In both competitions we have knocked out by Sheffield Wednesday, Port Vale, Lincoln City, Burton Albion and Accrington Stanley all under Sean Dyche.

Getting knocked out by Accrington Stanley and Lincoln City was unacceptable, I said as much at the time. Getting beat away at Manchester City isn't.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:34 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Getting beat away at Manchester City isn't.

The manner of defeat is when you see teams like Palace having a real go.

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:35 pm

We tried to park the bus, but couldn't even find the correct parking spot!

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:53 pm

houseboy wrote:Sorry about the loaded question but it was intended because I wanted to try to get answers that didn't include things like 'think of all the money we make' etc. because I don't see the club as the Bank of Burnley FC as some seem to do.

I agree that we should play at the highest level but my worry would be that if we had an annual relegation fight crowds would fall off and not because of 'plastic' fans but because football is a sport and an entertainment, it's not just about loyalty, and maybe people would start thinking 'I can't do this anymore' especially when you consider the cost.

Thanks for the reply though because I just wanted to understand what, other than money, motivated people with regard to this PL survival thing and why many consider 'throwing' cup games in favour of it was okay when cup games may (and probably do) represent the only chance of major silverware for the vast majority of clubs. And it's not just Burnley, it's probably every club outside the top 6 (with a couple of exceptions).

I get why you didn't want the answers to mention money, but it's such a massive part of the game these days. It's not just that we make money in the PL, it's what we can do with that money to help us compete at the highest level in the long term.

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:13 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Getting knocked out by Accrington Stanley and Lincoln City was unacceptable, I said as much at the time. Getting beat away at Manchester City isn't.

In principle, I agree. But I don't just don't feel that Dyche embraces cup competitions as a manager, which is surprising given he was part of that Chesterfield side in 1997

houseboy · Post by **houseboy** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:57 pm

Tall Paul wrote:I get why you didn't want the answers to mention money, but it's such a massive part of the game these days. It's not just that we make money in the PL, it's what we can do with that money to help us compete at the highest level in the long term.

Absolutely mate and I do understand the importance of money in football, it's an inescapable fact of the game just now. It has been nice finding out what other motivating factors are involved though. The money has meant a lot to the club and that cannot be denied, I just wish the board would spend some of it on the pitch (and I don't mean the grass).

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:05 pm

Spijed wrote:We tried to park the bus, but couldn't even find the correct parking spot!

We parked a skateboard in the wrong continent

Longside4evr · Post by **Longside4evr** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:45 pm

We had our best rolling cup runs in 82 /83 season it was a very exciting time semi of the League Cup going out 3-1 on aggregate to Liverpool then going out in the FA cup at the quarter final replay to the hands of Sheffield W after one a piece draw at the Turf so exciting But guess what we got relegated and no one cared what happened in them cups the season after.
We went on going down hill after that and ended up fighting for our lives I certainly know whats more important UTC

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:52 pm

Relegations are inevitable. A giant killing or a cup run fans remember forever - as your post suggests

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:49 pm

claptrappers_union wrote:Relegations are inevitable. A giant killing or a cup run fans remember forever - as your post suggests

I remember being at Maine Road on 2 May 1960 at the end of a great season more than going to Wembley on 5 May two years later for a disappointing Cup Final.
Keeping the Clarets in the top League of English football and letting the players play at the highest level is much more important than any cup run. Without major outside investment we can only hope to maintain our status and anything else is a bonus.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:51 pm

Longside4evr wrote:We had our best rolling cup runs in 82 /83 season it was a very exciting time semi of the League Cup going out 3-1 on aggregate to Liverpool then going out in the FA cup at the quarter final replay to the hands of Sheffield W after one a piece draw at the Turf so exciting But guess what we got relegated and no one cared what happened in them cups the season after.
We went on going down hill after that and ended up fighting for our lives I certainly know whats more important UTC

No-one cared? More people remember that Liverpool game than any of the league games. And I still think "what if" to the clearance off the line by Souness at 1-0 in the second leg, and the Steve Taylor penalty miss against Wednesday. I don't care about our league position 36 years ago, but those Cup defeats still hurt, and the Cup wins still feel like glory.

Tell me honestly, which would you rather have? The memories of that Spurs game and Billy Hamilton's fourth goal, or a copy of a better balance sheet from 1983-4?

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:56 pm

And while we're on the subject, here are four wins against Tottenham:

4-1 in the League Cup, at White Hart Lane, under Casper;
2-1 at Turf Moor, League Cup, under Ternent;
3-2 at Turf Moor, League Cup Semi, under Coyle;
4-2 at Turf Moor, League game, under Laws.

The fourth one earned us a few hundred thousand pounds for finishing a place higher up the table. Is that the one that you look back on think "this is what Burnley Football Club should be about"?

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:00 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:I remember being at Maine Road on 2 May 1960 at the end of a great season more than going to Wembley on 5 May two years later for a disappointing Cup Final.
Keeping the Clarets in the top League of English football and letting the players play at the highest level is much more important than any cup run. Without major outside investment we can only hope to maintain our status and anything else is a bonus.

Why have you got it into your head that its either / or?

In 1999/00 we beat (Premier League) Derby in the 3rd Round (remember, we had to start in 1st round) and won promotion as runners up
In 2008/09 we got to the semi final of the League Cup and 5th Round of the FA Cup and we won the Play-offs

Ashingtonclaret46 · Post by **Ashingtonclaret46** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:06 pm

claptrappers_union wrote:Why have you got it into your head that its either / or?

In 1999/00 we beat (Premier League) Derby in the 3rd Round (remember, we had to start in 1st round) and won promotion as runners up
In 2008/09 we got to the semi final of the League Cup and 5th Round of the FA Cup and we won the Play-offs

I don't worry about whether we can or can't, I was stating my feelings and my opinion,

It is only a game and is not important in the grand scale of things. The only time it becomes important in any way is if the club was going to cease to exist because of whatever circumstances. That would be a very big loss for the town and surrounding district and those of us who enjoy our trip to the Turf.

Longside4evr · Post by **Longside4evr** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:10 pm

If we would have lost to Orient thats all my generation would have been to hold on to though as i was their at Preston when we won the second division but as a young lad
And Third division Championship in the 81/82 up until that cliffhanger of a day
But now i would rather we through everything at staying put because for one I never thought we see it and I want to stay in it
Not have the memories they fade and die our bread and butter is try and stay in it at all costs,
I was disappointed at how we went about our European tour and we might never get a chance again but while we are still in this division we do have a chance and still can build.
I bet Aldershot and a all host of other clubs have memories about there cup exploits to
I would swap an FA cup winners rather than be relegated from this division any day

claptrappers_union · Post by **claptrappers_union** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:34 pm

Ashingtonclaret46 wrote:I don't worry about whether we can or can't, I was stating my feelings and my opinion,

It is only a game and is not important in the grand scale of things. The only time it becomes important in any way is if the club was going to cease to exist because of whatever circumstances. That would be a very big loss for the town and surrounding district and those of us who enjoy our trip to the Turf.

But that won't happen just because of us winning the FA Cup though will it....(remembers who won the cup in 2008)... oh, actually......

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:27 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Of course it’s fanciful. In the past 30 years the only teams outside the recognised top six who have won the FA cup are Wigan, Pompey and Everton. The chance of Burnley winning the FA cup are tiny. We were 40-1 to progress to the fifth round!

So chelsea draw united. Meaning one of those will be out.

Palace draw doncaster. Watford draw portsmouth or qpr... fanciful that palace or watford could win it? With united or chelsea joining arsenal, spurs, liverpool, everton, leicester out....?

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:31 pm

That's exactly why you should always have a go. The draw has opened up massively, real chance for Watford or Palace to get to the final. Still, at least we've got our battle to grind out 38 points to look forward to, I can't wait.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:33 pm

Exactly. We should take the thing seriously. With the luck of the draw you are a few wins off the final. And one frim euro... actually scrap that. If we got in the europa league proper we would play for third place

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:34 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:So chelsea draw united. Meaning one of those will be out.

Palace draw doncaster. Watford draw portsmouth or qpr... fanciful that palace or watford could win it? With united or chelsea joining arsenal, spurs, liverpool, everton, leicester out....?

Yes, it’s still fanciful that Palace or Watford will win the FA Cup. You’re also forgetting Manchester City, the bookmaker’s favourites to lift the cup.

Have a punt, you can get 16/1 on each to win the cup. That’s 16/1, ie fanciful.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:37 pm

jrgbfc wrote:That's exactly why you should always have a go. The draw has opened up massively, real chance for Watford or Palace to get to the final. Still, at least we've got our battle to grind out 38 points to look forward to, I can't wait.

We had a real go at beating Man City in the FA cup last season and got turned over. We had a real go against them in the league earlier in the season and got spanked. They are far far better than us, we would have lost that game no matter which 11 players we started or how we approached the game.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:40 pm

Rileybobs wrote:Yes, it’s still fanciful that Palace or Watford will win the FA Cup. You’re also forgetting Manchester City, the bookmaker’s favourites to lift the cup.

Have a punt, you can get 16/1 on each to win the cup. That’s 16/1, ie fanciful.

Ok then.

jrgbfc · Post by **jrgbfc** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:41 pm

Rileybobs wrote:We had a real go at beating Man City in the FA cup last season and got turned over. We had a real go against them in the league earlier in the season and got spanked. They are far far better than us, we would have lost that game no matter which 11 players we started or how we approached the game.

Yeah I accept we got a stinker of a draw this season that we couldn't do much about. But we would have had the same half arsed, makeshift line up against whoever we drew.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:43 pm

jrgbfc wrote:Yeah I accept we got a stinker of a draw this season that we couldn't do much about. But we would have had the same half arsed, makeshift line up against whoever we drew.

Maybe we would, and then there would be a reason to whinge. But we didn’t - we got one of the best teams in the world, in fantastic form, away from home. We lost, let it go.

scouseclaret · Post by **scouseclaret** » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:50 pm

UTD drew Chelsea tonight. If we’d beaten City, there’d only be one “big six” club between us and the Cup!!!

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:24 pm

So the unbeatble Citys FIRST team played tonight. Anyone know how they got on?

Spijed · Post by **Spijed** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:38 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:So the unbeatble Citys FIRST team played tonight. Anyone know how they got on?

After the game on Saturday:

This Man City side have a squad that can destroy ever other team.
The gap between the so called big six and the rest was only going to get bigger.

hmm...

Tall Paul · Post by **Tall Paul** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:53 pm

cricketfieldclarets wrote:So the unbeatble Citys FIRST team played tonight. Anyone know how they got on?

Maybe they lost because they took Saturdays game too seriously, unlike us who didn't lose tonight.

cricketfieldclarets · Post by **cricketfieldclarets** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:59 pm

Tall Paul wrote:Maybe they lost because they took Saturdays game too seriously, unlike us who didn't lose tonight.