Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:46 am

I realise that the voting is all a bit of a game to our MPs but why does JRM voting for May’s deal have to be conditional on the DUP voting for it?

Why not just be honest (yeah I know, he’s a politician) and say he’s voting for it because it is now the best option in his opinion?

Bordeauxclaret · Post by **Bordeauxclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:52 am

Because he’s a massive fraud who’s been exposed by this whole process.

JohnMcGreal · Post by **JohnMcGreal** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:55 am

So it's OK for JRM to change his mind about a deal he voted against just 3 months ago, but the general public aren't allowed to change their minds about something they voted on nearly 3 years ago?

Shameless. If he can change his mind when the circumstances change, so can everyone else.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:55 am

Want a full list of amendments that might be debated today by the MPs?

Well, your wish is my command!

https://twitter.com/ChrisJames_90/statu ... 0132620288" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Worth mentioning that a lot of these amendments are very similar, so they all won't be debated. Also worth mentioning that the ones that Brexit fantasy jobs that have been polluting our airwaves and tv screens for two years plus are still just as impossible to pass so probably won't be selected either. I would have said the same about the more remainer ones as well, but I think the political climate is shifting, and shifting fast, so I wouldn't rule any of them out yet.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:56 am

Dear South West Claret,

Parliament is going to debate the petition you signed – “Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.”.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The debate is scheduled for 1 April 2019.

Once the debate has happened, we’ll email you a video and transcript.

Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.”.

To unsubscribe from getting emails about this petition: https://petition.parliament.uk/signatur ... 71Nkj54Lks" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh well that's better then a kick up the backside.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:58 am

I realise that the voting is all a bit of a game to our MPs but why does JRM voting for May’s deal have to be conditional on the DUP voting for it?

Why not just be honest (yeah I know, he’s a politician) and say he’s voting for it because it is now the best option in his opinion?

All about saving face sadly.

His support base want him to invade France and Germany, and he knows he can't do that, so he's as Eurosceptic as its possible to be but he's also not daft. He knows that the Bill Cash position (leave means leave, whatever happens and no one dare budge) will result in "No Brexit".

Pure politics in practice, but pretty unedifying to the watching public.

This could finish him and Boris off btw. Its risky.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:15 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:So it's OK for JRM to change his mind about a deal he voted against just 3 months ago, but the general public aren't allowed to change their minds about something they voted on nearly 3 years ago?

Shameless. If he can change his mind when the circumstances change, so can everyone else.

It’s far simpler for 1 person to change their mind, than the complexities involving 30 odd million people who are split in various ways, some want the a50 revoked,some want a 2nd referendum,some wanted a hard brexit, some want a soft brexit, 1 bloke changing his mind versus that.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:54 am

There is no point in this waste of time. Its obvious that a remainer HOC thinks we should stay in and call it leave. That's been the aim of the majority of MPs since 23 june 2016. So CU/SM here we come. Total sham.
.
It will be sold as a wonderful compromise but it will not be what anyone positively wants.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:01 am

No control of money borders trade or laws. Get a 9m extension and a new tory leader that wants a proper Brexit. Send 75 screaming Lord Such's to Brussels.

Steve-Harpers-perm · Post by **Steve-Harpers-perm** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:10 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:All about saving face sadly.

His support base want him to invade France and Germany, and he knows he can't do that, so he's as Eurosceptic as its possible to be but he's also not daft. He knows that the Bill Cash position (leave means leave, whatever happens and no one dare budge) will result in "No Brexit".

Pure politics in practice, but pretty unedifying to the watching public.

This could finish him and Boris off btw. Its risky.

We live in hope on your last sentence especially reading the drivel Johnson has splashed on front of today’s Telegragh like he’s transported himself back to the Middle Ages.

South West Claret. · Post by **South West Claret.** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:54 am

JohnMcGreal wrote:So it's OK for JRM to change his mind about a deal he voted against just 3 months ago, but the general public aren't allowed to change their minds about something they voted on nearly 3 years ago?

Shameless. If he can change his mind when the circumstances change, so can everyone else.

What a fine and truthful post by JMG.. may I commend it to the board

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 am

My amendment would be:

Any final Brexit solution MUST include an independent immigration policy.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:24 am

Only relevant if immigration is the main reason.

Could be as its clearly not about parliamentary sovereignty.

And that amendment guarantees either "Mays Deal" and "No Deal", both of which won't get through parliament.

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:35 am

Promising signs the PM 's deal is winning over key influential colleagues who up to now have voted against it. This matters.
Common sense being used at last as the realisation that finally the time for tactical voting is over.
The plotters and supporters of overturning the votes of over 17 million may be feeling more uneasy than they have felt for some time.
Of course there is a long way to go and it could finally come down to whether some labour MPs in constituencies who overwhelmingly voted Leave support the PMs deal.
Burnley 66% in favour of leaving

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:41 am

Doesn't stack up I'm afraid

DUP say "No", and you have to remember that "remain" suits their agenda a lot better than Mays deal.

And there are 30 ERGs who will never vote for it, about 15 remain Conservatives that won't. She needs 60 Lab MPs. Last time she got three.

All in all, not very "promising" at all.

The ERG had their chance to back this deal, and they blew it.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:43 am

Elizabeth wrote:Promising signs the PM 's deal is winning over key influential colleagues who up to now have voted against it. This matters.
Common sense being used at last as the realisation that finally the time for tactical voting is over.
The plotters and supporters of overturning the votes of over 17 million may be feeling more uneasy than they have felt for some time.
Of course there is a long way to go and it could finally come down to whether some labour MPs in constituencies who overwhelmingly voted Leave support the PMs deal.
Burnley 66% in favour of leaving

Trouble is those labour mps now have another viable option of a very soft Brexit which Labour will wrongly spin as brexit. I am concerned that peak brexit ( i don't mean no deal) was immediately before the PM ****** off the likes of lisa nandy with her speech last week.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:45 am

Peak Brexit was the night after the referendum I think.

Once the realities started to be realised, it been downhill ever since.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:48 am

Labour all over the place, Thornbury said they will support kyle Wilson, gardiner said a free vote.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:49 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Doesn't stack up I'm afraid

DUP say "No", and you have to remember that "remain" suits their agenda a lot better than Mays deal.

And there are 30 ERGs who will never vote for it, about 15 remain Conservatives that won't. She needs 60 Lab MPs. Last time she got three.

All in all, not very "promising" at all.

The ERG had their chance to back this deal, and they blew it.

It be a lot closer than that. However she has probably lost too many labour mps. The DUP might abstain. Like before there might only be a handful of tory remainers voting against her deal, but they will soon have a CU soft soft option.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:50 am

Labour all over the place, Thornbury said they will support kyle Wilson, gardiner said a free vote.

This is true. Determined not to have a position, which just pisses everybody off.

Its going to be either an election (which could see lots of big name MPs losing their seats, which is a real cross party issue) or another vote.

Unless parliament comes out heavily in favour of something and can force it through.

TheFamilyCat · Post by **TheFamilyCat** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:52 am

Mala591 wrote:My amendment would be:

Any final Brexit solution MUST include an independent immigration policy.

Oops, clumsy.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:52 am

It be a lot closer than that

It won't be. Numbers just don't stack up.

Closer than last time, yes, but close enough to look like it will pass?

No chance

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:53 am

I see grieve has put his name to the revoke option. I thought he wanted thd public to decide. How the hell he can he be the next tory candidate for beaconsfield?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:55 am

And how can JRM and Johnston back Mays deal?

There isn't anyone coming out of this well.

Mala591 · Post by **Mala591** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:56 am

May's deal plus amended political declaration to include a customs union is looking likely.

We would 'lose' the ability to negotiate independent trade deals but imo that is a price worth paying for less disruption at UK/EU trade borders.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:56 am

summitclaret wrote:It be a lot closer than that. However she has probably lost too many labour mps. The DUP might abstain. Like before there might only be a handful of tory remainers voting against her deal, but they will soon have a CU soft soft option.

It’s interesting to see the journey that the message boards biggest Brexit supporters have gone through in the last few weeks. From May’s deal being a ‘backtrap’ the EU would never let us escape from, Brexit in name only, worse than remaining in, etc, to scrabbling around for votes for May’s deal in the vain hope it might get through.

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:56 am

Let us imagine a 3rd vote on the PMs deal that falls short by a very small number .

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:58 am

Okay, but its like imagining a hassle free Brexit.

She needs the DUP. She can't get them.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:59 am

summitclaret wrote:I see grieve has put his name to the revoke option. I thought he wanted thd public to decide. How the hell he can he be the next tory candidate for beaconsfield?

The amendment is to revoke if we’re a couple of days away from Brexit day without a deal, I.e revoke rather than no deal. That should be the default position for all but the most rabid of Brexiteers to be honest.

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:02 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:This is true. Determined not to have a position, which just pisses everybody off.

Its going to be either an election (which could see lots of big name MPs losing their seats, which is a real cross party issue) or another vote.

Unless parliament comes out heavily in favour of something and can force it through.

A GE would happen before a second referendum. We cant give inro the normal EU tactic. But not until there is a new tory leader in place. However i will offer another option. A simple referendum do you accept May's deal yes or no. No remain option just vote no if you don't want to leave. It's goes against everything i have ever argued as May's deal is not really a proper Brexit, but its much better than anything the HOC will cone up with today.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:03 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:This is true. Determined not to have a position, which just pisses everybody off.

Its going to be either an election (which could see lots of big name MPs losing their seats, which is a real cross party issue) or another vote.

Unless parliament comes out heavily in favour of something and can force it through.

They haven’t decided whether to whip for or against or have a free vote to be fair. Really all MPs on all sides of the house should be given free votes today, it’s the only way some sort of consensus might be reached.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:04 am

It's goes against everything i have ever argued as May's deal is not really a proper Brexit, but its much better than anything the HOC will cone up with today.

it does.

Nothing else needs saying really

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:07 am

I doubt there are many if any posters who are informed enough to comment with any authority on this complicated Brexit matter.
Many remain voters have for a long time wanted the UK to honour the referendum result.
My biggest regret in the whole sorry situation has been witnessing the antics of fellow citizens and members of Parliament who have from the day after the referendum result made it their purpose to overturn what was a clear message from voters that they wanted to leave

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:07 am

martin_p wrote:The amendment is to revoke if we’re a couple of days away from Brexit day without a deal, I.e revoke rather than no deal. That should be the default position for all but the most rabid of Brexiteers to be honest.

What's the legal position about revoking, when we're outside the Article 50 process? As far as our membership of the EU is concerned, UK law still says we leave on Friday but EU law says we leave on April 12 or May 22 or some other date to be decided; but that date is at the discretion of the EU, not of the House of Commons. So can we still revoke Article 50?

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:08 am

I completely disagree.

The information is out there if you want to be informed about it.

Rick_Muller · Post by **Rick_Muller** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:09 am

What the order should be is this (IMO):

Revoke A50 - we dont want to p!ss on our chips anymore than we should do in the EU. Status quo gives us a veto and a place where the decisions are made, we need to keep that for the time being.

General Election next - lets give the parties an opportunity to spell out what their policy is regarding the EU with what they have learnt about leaving the EU. People can then vote accordingly.

If the party that wins promised another referendum, then we should have one again, but with a clear definition of what the Leave option would be, pre-agreed with the EU, so that when we invoke A50 again (if needed) we all know exactly what will happen.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:10 am

Dominic Cummings of Vote Leave calls for a 2nd ref (and lays into those who are wobbling)

https://dominiccummings.com/2019/03/27/ ... sequences/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:11 am

martin_p wrote:They haven’t decided whether to whip for or against or have a free vote to be fair. Really all MPs on all sides of the house should be given free votes today, it’s the only way some sort of consensus might be reached.

Both parties should whip against options that are clearly contrary to their manifestos.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 am

dsr wrote:What's the legal position about revoking, when we're outside the Article 50 process? As far as our membership of the EU is concerned, UK law still says we leave on Friday but EU law says we leave on April 12 or May 22 or some other date to be decided; but that date is at the discretion of the EU, not of the House of Commons. So can we still revoke Article 50?

If we want to revoke article 50 it will be revoked. To be honest if some legal chicanery stopped us doing it unilaterally then the EU would be more than happy to do it for us.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:13 am

summitclaret wrote:Both parties should whip against options that are clearly contrary to their manifestos.

Manifestos shouldn’t stand in the way of what is best for the country. Time to put party loyalties aside.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:14 am

What's the legal position about revoking, when we're outside the Article 50 process? As far as our membership of the EU is concerned, UK law still says we leave on Friday but EU law says we leave on April 12 or May 22 or some other date to be decided; but that date is at the discretion of the EU, not of the House of Commons. So can we still revoke Article 50?

Yes.

If its a binary choice between that and "No Deal" then we have failed as a country, and we would be absolutely mad to go for "No Deal"

summitclaret · Post by **summitclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:17 am

martin_p wrote:Manifestos shouldn’t stand in the way of what is best for the country. Time to put party loyalties aside.

No time for mps from tbe 400 + constituencies to do what their voters wanted.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:18 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Yes.

If its a binary choice between that and "No Deal" then we have failed as a country, and we would be absolutely mad to go for "No Deal"

I wasn't asking based on personal opinion, but on legal knowledge. The Brexit process is no longer under control of the UK, at least from Friday it isn't; is the Article 50 process under control of the UK, or are we back to doing whatever the EU tells us to?

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:18 am

summitclaret wrote:No time for mps from tbe 400 + constituencies to do what their voters wanted.

If they’ve had a local referendum about Brexit in your constituency they certainly haven’t in mine.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:19 am

Well, if you wanted legal opinion, you wouldn't have posted it on here.

I'm guessing that you (like me) already know the answer.

martin_p · Post by **martin_p** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:20 am

dsr wrote:I wasn't asking based on personal opinion, but on legal knowledge. The Brexit process is no longer under control of the UK, at least from Friday it isn't; is the Article 50 process under control of the UK, or are we back to doing whatever the EU tells us to?

In what way is it less under our control than it is now.

Elizabeth · Post by **Elizabeth** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:25 am

The most publicised piece of information that is out there is that 17.4 million people in the UK were clear they wanted to leave.

AndyClaret · Post by **AndyClaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:27 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Dominic Cummings of Vote Leave calls for a 2nd ref (and lays into those who are wobbling)

https://dominiccummings.com/2019/03/27/ ... sequences/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In order to win it again.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:31 am

The most publicised piece of information that is out there is that 17.4 million people in the UK were clear they wanted to leave.

It doesn't help you understand what is going on parliament or why we are still arguing about it though.

Proper research of it does.

You've clearly got the time.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:32 am

In order to win it again.

Of course.

A referendum is chancy for both sides, but to get the Brexit he wants, he'll only get it with a 2nd ref.