Huge win but

[claretspice]

How about when we played really well away at Arsenal and Wolves and only picked up a point when we could easily have had four ?
I would love us to “refine our game” and having the likes of Westwood and McNeill in our team we do show plenty of glimpses of it.
But as things stand Dyche plays a system that suits his players and a way that he believes will give us the best chance of getting a result - and he seems to be doing pretty well.
He would argue (and has) that he has tried to develop the way we play - or refine it as you call it. What he can’t account for is that when the game starts if some of his players are careless with their passing or make unforced errors. I don’t think that’s anything to do with Dyche or our system - it’s just players not playing as well as they can or making wrong decisions.
Dyche is never going to try and completely change our style of play whilst he is at Burnley with the financial constraints he has to operate within - because he probably knows that the players he has at his disposal would struggle and he will have seen what happened to teams like Stoke when they tried to move away from what they were good at.
IMHO I just think we have a few fans who expect a bit too much and forget how tough this league is every single week. Look at Villa today - spent an absolute fortune and hammered by a team who we easily beat. It’s like this almost every week with most of the league outside the top 6. It’s so hard to string wins together and show consistency every week.
Chelsea playing us off the park.
Burnley easily beating West Ham.
West Ham beat Chelsea !

Happens frequently in this league and you just have to hope you turn up enough times in a season and do what you need to win - whatever way you choose to play.

So - as I said that thing is happening where the argument gets pushed to extremes. What you've done here is to lump anyone who thinks we might be able improve in the "moaners with overinflated expectations camp". There may be some people who argue for our style to change "completely" - but I'm not one of them. I completely agree that we should stick to doing things that have brought us success. So do most other people who observe that some recent performances have been a tough watch. Its possible to hold that opinion whilst being delighted with what we're achieving and holding realistic expectations.

I think we have the players to keep the ball better away from home at times, and that there is a case from breaking up the Barnes/Wood axis to facilitate that by playing with 1 out and out front man. Two seasons ago, that's how we set up away from home - that team had substantially the same personnel, played to substantially the same strengths, but did so in a way that retained the ball a little better and played with a little more refinement as a result. I think the time has come to consider trying that again and I dont see that a discussion about that has to descend into "you want us to play differently, therefore your expectations are too high".

[cricketfieldclarets]

So - as I said that thing is happening where the argument gets pushed to extremes. What you've done here is to lump anyone who thinks we might be able improve in the "moaners with overinflated expectations camp". There may be some people who argue for our style to change "completely" - but I'm not one of them. I completely agree that we should stick to doing things that have brought us success. So do most other people who observe that some recent performances have been a tough watch. Its possible to hold that opinion whilst being delighted with what we're achieving and holding realistic expectations.

I think we have the players to keep the ball better away from home at times, and that there is a case from breaking up the Barnes/Wood axis to facilitate that by playing with 1 out and out front man. Two seasons ago, that's how we set up away from home - that team had substantially the same personnel, played to substantially the same strengths, but did so in a way that retained the ball a little better and played with a little more refinement as a result. I think the time has come to consider trying that again and I dont see that a discussion about that has to descend into "you want us to play differently, therefore your expectations are too high".

Hear hear.

How wanting to make incremental improvements can be perceived as negative and unrealistic is beyond me.

Nobody wants us to get rid of the core of players we have.
Nobody expects us to sign Ronaldo.

But equally we do want to see our style gradually improve along with the age of the squad.

A starting 11 next season of

Pope
New Tarkowski Mee Taylor
New Westwood New McNeil
Wood Barnes

Would be fine

With an option to go 451, 433, 352 etc even better!

[Rileybobs]

We can get better but we’re really limited by the technical ability of our midfield. They’re just not able to play in small spaces consistently. Defour and Barton stood out so much because we’ve never seen that level of technical ability on the turf.

We get pressed, we play sideways and then back into Mee or Tarks who hit the channel. Or we get pressed, play into Lowton, who hits a channel.

Taylor and Dwight are able to play in those small spaces and so we can outlet down the left with some success.

Dwight inside with Drinkwater and Hendrick would totally transform our midfield, we’d be looking to play in a different manner. Even in the Drinkwater camo you could see him work through the out-letting options he had more successfully than Cork or Westwood. On the halfturn constantly, looking to play short passes into fullbacks on the bomb or challenge the CB outside channel, and carrying the ball through the lines. If we could recruit him full time I think he, Vydra and JRod would transform this teams style at home. The ball retention would also support Tarks steeping forward and creating overloads in midfield, something we can’t do at the moment because of the counter attack risk when play breaks down so easily.

A number of poor suggestions there. We have already seen that Hendrick offers far less than Westwood in midfield. Not sure what you’ve seen of Drinkwater in his time here to suggest that he has offered something different either. And it is laughable to suggest replacing the highly effective and proven partnership of Barnes and Wood with Rodriguez and Vydra, the latter who looks far from at home at this level.

As for Tarkowski overlapping, you’re living in dreamland if you think that’s ever going to happen, and rightly so because our low-risk approach has been key to our success.

[jrgbfc]

So - as I said that thing is happening where the argument gets pushed to extremes. What you've done here is to lump anyone who thinks we might be able improve in the "moaners with overinflated expectations camp". There may be some people who argue for our style to change "completely" - but I'm not one of them. I completely agree that we should stick to doing things that have brought us success. So do most other people who observe that some recent performances have been a tough watch. Its possible to hold that opinion whilst being delighted with what we're achieving and holding realistic expectations.

I think we have the players to keep the ball better away from home at times, and that there is a case from breaking up the Barnes/Wood axis to facilitate that by playing with 1 out and out front man. Two seasons ago, that's how we set up away from home - that team had substantially the same personnel, played to substantially the same strengths, but did so in a way that retained the ball a little better and played with a little more refinement as a result. I think the time has come to consider trying that again and I dont see that a discussion about that has to descend into "you want us to play differently, therefore your expectations are too high".

Totally agree. It's ridiculous on here these days. Any kind of criticism or attempted debate on how we might improve in certain areas is immediately shouted down by certain posters with things like "go and support Man City then". Morons.

[Rileybobs]

Hear hear.

How wanting to make incremental improvements can be perceived as negative and unrealistic is beyond me.

Nobody wants us to get rid of the core of players we have.
Nobody expects us to sign Ronaldo.

But equally we do want to see our style gradually improve along with the age of the squad.

A starting 11 next season of

Pope
New Tarkowski Mee Taylor
New Westwood New McNeil
Wood Barnes

Would be fine

With an option to go 451, 433, 352 etc even better!

I don’t think many would disagree with the three additions you’ve suggested there. I just don’t think we need to make those signings in January without knowing the futures of the likes of Hendrick, McNeill and Tarkowski.

A new right back would be nice, and definitely on my shopping list, but if we were to lose the three players I’ve mentioned above for example then we may rightly think that we could get another season out of Bardsley and Lowton and put our efforts and resources into replacing the aforementioned.

[Rileybobs]

Totally agree. It's ridiculous on here these days. Any kind of criticism or attempted debate on how we might improve in certain areas is immediately shouted down by certain posters with things like "go and support Man City then". Morons.

That’s not true. It’s just some posters, like yourself, can’t help but spew constant negativity. I’m sure most people would like our style of play to improve and I’m sure everyone would like this to happen without losing our Premier League status. It’s just that some people seem more realistic about the constraints that we are working under and can understand that it isn’t a simple task and not a change that we are going to see overnight.

[jrgbfc]

I think if Hendrick was going to sign he'd have done it by now. Just a guy feeling mind. He's free to talk to other clubs in January so maybe he's waiting to see what sort of offers he gets?

[TVC15]

So - as I said that thing is happening where the argument gets pushed to extremes. What you've done here is to lump anyone who thinks we might be able improve in the "moaners with overinflated expectations camp". There may be some people who argue for our style to change "completely" - but I'm not one of them. I completely agree that we should stick to doing things that have brought us success. So do most other people who observe that some recent performances have been a tough watch. Its possible to hold that opinion whilst being delighted with what we're achieving and holding realistic expectations.

I think we have the players to keep the ball better away from home at times, and that there is a case from breaking up the Barnes/Wood axis to facilitate that by playing with 1 out and out front man. Two seasons ago, that's how we set up away from home - that team had substantially the same personnel, played to substantially the same strengths, but did so in a way that retained the ball a little better and played with a little more refinement as a result. I think the time has come to consider trying that again and I dont see that a discussion about that has to descend into "you want us to play differently, therefore your expectations are too high".

Never mentioned anything about moaners - and neither is the debate descending in the way you are describing. I’m offering up an opinion just like you are. As usual you seem to be over analysing the situation.
My opinion is that it’s not a case of some weeks we choose to play more football on the ground than other weeks but that the inconsistency as to when we do this is down to a number of factors - the conditions, the opposition, our own players own inconsistency etc. Pretty much the same for the majority of teams in the division as you can see from the results where it is very difficult for many teams to string together good results / performances.

As for playing one up front the last time that worked for us was quite a while ago - we did try that once this season at home and it did not go well. I would have no objections to doing this some weeks as I don’t think we change it up enough sometimes when it’s very clear things are not working but as Dyche has often said when you are in the thick of it in a game where things are not going to plan it is not easy to just change things round. Maybe it is in the championship or against one of the weaker teams in the division but some weeks in this division when you are playing against a team who are playing at the top of their game then with the quality of players they have got it does not matter whether our team are under performing or playing at the very top of their own games we just have to accept that they are often playing against much better players and there really is nothing we can do.
When we win games in this division most weeks we need the other team to be below par and we exploit them by using the style and tactics that we are good at. If that means getting the ball down and playing more then Dyche would have no objection to sending his players out to do this - but a lot of the time he thinks he can exploit their weakness by hitting it longer, winning the second ball etc.

Would be very interesting if you ever got the opportunity to say to Dyche that you think if we played more football or refined our game we would get better results to hear is response.

[TVC15]

Totally agree. It's ridiculous on here these days. Any kind of criticism or attempted debate on how we might improve in certain areas is immediately shouted down by certain posters with things like "go and support Man City then". Morons.

By no means whatsoever do I put the likes of Claretspice or CC in the same category as the likes of you and Boysie etc who only ever offer negativity about the club and Dyche.
I agree with a lot of what they say and they are just offering up an opinion and are also very positive about the club. As Rileybobs said all some others do is also offer an opinion that our style often gets exaggerated or stereotyped and the constraints and limitations we have to work within in such a hard league.
And for pointing out our opinion you describe us as always backing the club and Dyche regardless of what we do which is also completely wrong as I don’t know of any poster who has not criticised the club at some point.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Our struggles are as simple as missing key players and letting others go.

In the last four years one could argue that we have replaced Barton with Westwood - both effective at surging forward and providing a quality cross or through ball. Now, when Westwood is out we struggle because we have nobody else of that standard, especially with Defour going too.

Our other key player has been Gudmundsson - key passes, crosses, assists all tend to be higher when he is fit and plays. So when he doesn’t, we get a bit one dimensional.

Away from home it is true though our wingers become less effective, they all tend to produce little more than half the key passes as they do at home.

But, our away record is fairly good. We have only been spanked by Spurs and the Blades, and were unlucky not to draw at both Arsenal and Leicester. I can see why Dyche doesn’t change it although we have three shocking fixtures coming up where even a point away from home will be impressive.

[Quickenthetempo]

The main problem I have is that Dyche always seems to come out in the post match interview, saying we could play better. You can't keep saying it without improving it.

It's been going on for years, so either get better technical players in, or improve the coaching staff/training methods.

The teams that are outperforming expectations (Leicester and Sheff Utd) know exactly where their players will be making runs so play the ball very quickly and instinctively. We don't have any of that.

[Danieljwaterhouse]

A number of poor suggestions there. We have already seen that Hendrick offers far less than Westwood in midfield. Not sure what you’ve seen of Drinkwater in his time here to suggest that he has offered something different either. And it is laughable to suggest replacing the highly effective and proven partnership of Barnes and Wood with Rodriguez and Vydra, the latter who looks far from at home at this level.

As for Tarkowski overlapping, you’re living in dreamland if you think that’s ever going to happen, and rightly so because our low-risk approach has been key to our success.

Thanks for your reply.

I wasn’t suggesting that we play those players in the current system, I’m suggesting it is a progression. Westwood would play as the CDM. With a more technical midfield who could play with a different vision Wood and Barnes wouldn’t fit. Would you play Vardy in this current system?

I saw even in that brief camo his ability to take the ball on the half turn, to run through progressions, and if there’s nothing then retain the ball. He’s technically better than anything we’ve got currently.

Did I suggest Tarks overlapping? It’s about CB (Tarks) stepping into midfield to create another player in there this creating overloads. As all good CB should (Ferdinand, Van Dyke, McGuire)

[TVC15]

The main problem I have is that Dyche always seems to come out in the post match interview, saying we could play better. You can't keep saying it without improving it.

It's been going on for years, so either get better technical players in, or improve the coaching staff/training methods.

The teams that are outperforming expectations (Leicester and Sheff Utd) know exactly where their players will be making runs so play the ball very quickly and instinctively. We don't have any of that.

Leicester have spent a fortune on their team and wages compared to us (and others). In a season when many of the so called top teams were in a transition period - Chelsea, United, and Arsenal and others going through a bit of turmoil - Spurs and Everton....there were a number of people tipping them to do well. I don’t think they are outperforming expectations - and if they finish on the top 4 or 5 this season I think that’s what their manager was expecting to he honest. They showed how far behind City they are yesterday and the fact that we should have got a draw away against them kind of belies your comments as to how bad you think we are.

Sheff United for the few weeks they have been in the Premier League have done incredibly. If you are going to use them as some kind of yardstick then most of the division has gone to the wall.

To say we should get better players in or improve the coaching staff does not even warrant a response back - it’s actually a bit embarrassing.

[Danieljwaterhouse]

The main problem I have is that Dyche always seems to come out in the post match interview, saying we could play better. You can't keep saying it without improving it.

It's been going on for years, so either get better technical players in, or improve the coaching staff/training methods.

The teams that are outperforming expectations (Leicester and Sheff Utd) know exactly where their players will be making runs so play the ball very quickly and instinctively. We don't have any of that.

Good post, your username is the solution! We just need players that can play technically with that tempo

[Rileybobs]

Thanks for your reply.

I wasn’t suggesting that we play those players in the current system, I’m suggesting it is a progression. Westwood would play as the CDM. With a more technical midfield who could play with a different vision Wood and Barnes wouldn’t fit. Would you play Vardy in this current system?

I saw even in that brief camo his ability to take the ball on the half turn, to run through progressions, and if there’s nothing then retain the ball. He’s technically better than anything we’ve got currently.

Did I suggest Tarks overlapping? It’s about CB (Tarks) stepping into midfield to create another player in there this creating overloads. As all good CB should (Ferdinand, Van Dyke, McGuire)

Why would we want to adopt a system where Barnes and Wood don’t fit? Which two players do you suggest that we sign who can pretty much guarantee 20 goals between them and would make us easier on the eye? You mentioned Vydra which on the evidence to hand is laughable. I don’t see a single way in which he would improve us or our style of play. His ball retention is inferior to Barnes’ and Wood’s for starters.

Would I play Vardy in this current system? Of course I would. He’s one of, if not the best centre forward in the PL. He is so good that if he played for us we would build a way of playing around him. In the same way that we play to the strengths of our current forwards ie. balls into the channel for Wood and crosses into the box. It’s been hugely successful.

I’m not sure I was watching the same game as you if you saw all that from Drinkwater in his 60 minutes against Man City. He was fine but didn’t really show us anything that we haven’t already got, that’s not to say that he doesn’t have that.

There’s a big difference between Tarkowski and Ferdinand/Van Dyke and the respective teams they play(ed) for and I’m sure I don’t need to point that out.

A lot of your suggestions just seem pie in the sky.

[Quickenthetempo]

Leicester have spent a fortune on their team and wages compared to us (and others). In a season when many of the so called top teams were in a transition period - Chelsea, United, and Arsenal and others going through a bit of turmoil - Spurs and Everton....there were a number of people tipping them to do well. I don’t think they are outperforming expectations - and if they finish on the top 4 or 5 this season I think that’s what their manager was expecting to he honest. They showed how far behind City they are yesterday and the fact that we should have got a draw away against them kind of belies your comments as to how bad you think we are.

Sheff United for the few weeks they have been in the Premier League have done incredibly. If you are going to use them as some kind of yardstick then most of the division has gone to the wall.

To say we should get better players in or improve the coaching staff does not even warrant a response back - it’s actually a bit embarrassing.

Embarrassing? Earlier up the thread you were claiming it's fine for everyone to offer an opinion. Have you a split personality?

I haven't come across anyone who predicted Leicester would be 2nd at Xmas playing exciting football, but you might have I suppose?

I wasn't going on about Sheff Utds/Leicester's results just their fast tempo style.

[Hibsclaret]

Really don’t see that we can improve a great deal when we are sat above Arsenal in the premier league. We are in that position because of the type of football we play and our ability to adapt to the conditions and type of opposition (like yesterday). I think there’s a few on here who would want us to play like Norwich or Watford and get relegated. Like in most walks of life you should play to your strengths and there is no team in the premier league who do that better than us...because the manager gets exactly what he wants from his team. There would be people on here moaning if we were in the top 4....that’s how ridiculous it is

[Steve1956]

A number of poor suggestions there. We have already seen that Hendrick offers far less than Westwood in midfield. Not sure what you’ve seen of Drinkwater in his time here to suggest that he has offered something different either. And it is laughable to suggest replacing the highly effective and proven partnership of Barnes and Wood with Rodriguez and Vydra, the latter who looks far from at home at this level.

As for Tarkowski overlapping, you’re living in dreamland if you think that’s ever going to happen, and rightly so because our low-risk approach has been key to our success.

I think Jeff is right keeping his options open,a hell of a lot (not all )of our support hasn't show a lot of love for him,which I find totally unfair,he's been a part of our success and we should support the fella not pull is every move to pieces on here,I for one have enjoyed watching Jeff in his time here,and hope he signs a new 3 year contract,he probably isn't even at the peak of his carreer yet,and the best is yet to come.

[Quickenthetempo]

I think Jeff is right keeping his options open,a hell of a lot (not all )of our support hasn't show a lot of love for him,which I find totally unfair,he's been a part of our success and we should support the fella not pull is every move to pieces on here,I for one have enjoyed watching Jeff in his time here,and hope he signs a new 3 year contract,he probably isn't even at the peak of his carreer yet,and the best is yet to come.

I would give him a go at right back and see how he does, his stifling qualities as a tucked in midfielder might be more beneficial further back.

[Rileybobs]

I would give him a go at right back and see how he does, his stifling qualities as a tucked in midfielder might be more beneficial further back.

Hendrick at right back? Seriously?

[Quickenthetempo]

Hendrick at right back? Seriously?

Yeah to give him a chance, he can't replace two average CMs. He's very limited on the right hand side and will be replaced by JBG when fit.

We need a right back and as long as he doesn't keep getting skinned, won't get any stick off the crowd for quiet performances.

[Rileybobs]

Yeah to give him a chance, he can't replace two average CMs. He's very limited on the right hand side and will be replaced by JBG when fit.

We need a right back and as long as he doesn't keep getting skinned, won't get any stick off the crowd for quiet performances.

Why on earth would we play a midfielder at right back when we have two experienced right backs in the squad?

[jrgbfc]

By no means whatsoever do I put the likes of Claretspice or CC in the same category as the likes of you and Boysie etc who only ever offer negativity about the club and Dyche.
I agree with a lot of what they say and they are just offering up an opinion and are also very positive about the club. As Rileybobs said all some others do is also offer an opinion that our style often gets exaggerated or stereotyped and the constraints and limitations we have to work within in such a hard league.
And for pointing out our opinion you describe us as always backing the club and Dyche regardless of what we do which is also completely wrong as I don’t know of any poster who has not criticised the club at some point.

Where have I been negative in this thread? Never mind as long as it suits your little narrative. You constantly talk down and try and belittle anyone who dares to have a different opinion to yourself no matter what the subject.

[tiger76]

Why on earth would we play a midfielder at right back when we have two experienced right backs in the squad?

Exactly! next we'll have someone suggesting Tarks as a midfielder

[Quickenthetempo]

Why on earth would we play a midfielder at right back when we have two experienced right backs in the squad?

Because both right backs are having poor seasons and 99% of Burnley fans think we need to replace them.
We haven't got anymore options.

Jeff might make a good right back. I would try him there before he leaves.

[Hipper]

It will be interesting to see how Brighton do throughout this season as they are trying to change the way they play.

Yet other teams like Newcastle and Palace continue to operate in a broadly similar way to us.

[Rileybobs]

Because both right backs are having poor seasons and 99% of Burnley fans think we need to replace them.
We haven't got anymore options.

Jeff might make a good right back. I would try him there before he leaves.

I personally think that Bardsley is having a decent season.

Interested to hear what qualities that Jeff has that would make him a candidate for the right back slot? Is he a tough tackler? Is he good in the air? Is he physical? Does he put a good cross in?

Hendrick at right back is one of the most mental suggestions I’ve seen on here and that’s no mean feat.

[TVC15]

Embarrassing? Earlier up the thread you were claiming it's fine for everyone to offer an opinion. Have you a split personality?

I haven't come across anyone who predicted Leicester would be 2nd at Xmas playing exciting football, but you might have I suppose?

I wasn't going on about Sheff Utds/Leicester's results just their fast tempo style.

Opinion is fine. Pointing out that we have needed more technical better quality players for years is just meaningless IMHO....I apologise for the word embarrassing.
Suggesting playing Hendrick at right back - now that’s ....!

[TVC15]

Where have I been negative in this thread? Never mind as long as it suits your little narrative. You constantly talk down and try and belittle anyone who dares to have a different opinion to yourself no matter what the subject.

Are you seriously saying that you don’t post a lot of negative posts about Dyche, his style of play and his transfer record ?
Your contribution to this thread is to say that those people who disagree with those who think we should play more football just support everything the club and Dyche do (I paraphrase).
I have posted an opinion (like others have saying) it’s not that simple and that our reputation is exaggerated whereas teams like Bournemouth who have scored less goals than us, scored more set pieces than any other team and have a worse disciplinary record than Burnley are talked about as playing like Barcelona.

[cricketfieldclarets]

That was bloody dreadful. One shot between us all game.

Wins a win especially in a six pointer but we definitely need some pace, skill and creativity especially out wide.

Anyone still in doubt? Plenty were after this match.

Well since then when we had one lucky break in 90 minutes we have had

Everton 0 shots on goal
Man Utd 1 shot on goal
Aston Villa 1 shot on goal

Surrendered a 9 point lead over the bottom 3
Gained 0 points

And have Chelsea away, Leicester and Arsenal to come before Southampton away.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Poor game. It could be worse. We could be at home with zero shots on goal and points.

You were saying...

[cricketfieldclarets]

Given we now have 24 points from 18 games, and third from bottom only have 15 from 18, it's looking likely that less than 38 will be enough to stay up. 35-36 could do it meaning just 4 more wins from out remaining 20 games.

I hope this can now instill a bit more confidence and looser purse strings next month.

Even your optimism has gone...

[cricketfieldclarets]

Can you think of the Villa fans with their lovely, Grealish-inspired flowing football, pi$$ed on yet again, on their way home after the game, now will they be happy or not ?

Im sure they will