Sacha Tovolieri - From the Beehole End

[beddie]

I’m not sure that VK would want to up root his young family (again) just yet, be that elsewhere in the UK or abroad.

[123EasyasBFC]

Really easily. The money is a stupid point as that is not what dictates a seasons success. Points do.

Stats wise this is our worst season ever.

From what I can tell even in that 86-87 season they had more than twice as many wins as we did this season.

I think you’ll find now in football money does dictate success, hence why clubs prioritise competitions that generate them more money

You can only compare stats in the same league.

Portsmouth won more games than wolves this season but they haven’t had a better season than wolves because it’s completely different leagues

[ClaretInLeeds]

2) Best not to generalise about our fan base based on what's said on this messageboard or on social media. I would say a better measure is the tone from fans who attend the games - on the whole, they have been patient and supportive despite a very difficult and frustrating season.

This. The most vociferous people on the internet are the ones that don't attend games and judging by the amount of time they spend on here, very rarely leave the house. Sad.

[GetIntoEm]

it was pretty obvious that the mass of the moaners on here only attach themselves to the club when we are doing well and in the premier league, definition of plastic fans.

none of them attend games, you can see whos posting on here during the matches.

they'll be back supporting city or liverpool this season from their Mum's armchair

[Goliath]

The guy who brought Vincent Kompany in who brought our best season for over 60 year's and delivered us a title on the ground of our nearest rival that Alan Pace....... OKAY

I just don't like the way he goes about things and I think he has put the club at huge risk. The social media stuff he's been getting involved in with childish comments is just an embarrassment.
If that's what you want in a chairman then that's up to you.

[ClaretAL]

Two problems with this:

1) As noted above, your hypocrisy is beyond belief after your relentless, extreme, toxic and shitty criticism of Dyche

2) Best not to generalise about our fan base based on what's said on this messageboard or on social media. I would say a better measure is the tone from fans who attend the games - on the whole, they have been patient and supportive despite a very difficult and frustrating season.

Totally agree with this. It is amazing when having a pre and post match pint and also discussing with the ST holders around me that have been there for years, the total opposite opinions of what is posted on here most of the time.

[ŽižkovClaret]

It's weird how these transfer rumour guys get so much airtime, people hanging off their every tweet. Cool mate, you heard about something that may or may not happen before most other people. Fair play to them for making a career of it but they're about as much use to the sport as agents.

Its just the modern era's telegraph sandwich boards or clubcall one liners isn't it? Its not new, it is, however, usually easier to dismiss pretty quickly

[AGENT_CLARET]

The worst season in the club's history?
I think there have been many worse.

Going off his username I'd say born in 1993 or started criticising sorry started watching us since 1993, either way they've seen nothing since 1993 compared to the 80's

[CoolClaret]

I mean statistically it is the worst season we've had relative to division, that's a fact.

[KRBFC]

I mean statistically it is the worst season we've had relative to division, that's a fact.

That’s just a dumb argument tho….

Anyway, I fear some of you will be delighted when you get your wish and Kompany is replaced by someone like Rosenior/Robins.

Be careful what you wish for, I’m sure you will all be happy with the club treading water in the 2nd tier

[claretonthecoast1882]

coolclaret and newcastle in agreement, it would be a concern if 1 of them thought the other was wrong.

Both are fed up of football, Burnley FC, don't like many players, don't like the owners, don't like the manager and like to tell people how close they are to being done with football.

Sadly for everyone else that day seems as far away as ever

[Big Vinny K]

I mean statistically it is the worst season we've had relative to division, that's a fact.

Yes it is - but who cares about the “relative to division” lens ?
We finished 19th out of 92 clubs in probably the strongest football leagues in the world. We have spent many years in far lower positions than this and some years in the bottom 10% of that 92 clubs.

I’m not pretending that this season was enjoyable - very clearly it wasn’t for the vast majority of supporters. But if you want to use words like “relative” then relative to our history these are halcyon days. It’s not about the Orient game or getting beat 6-0 at home to Hereford in front of 2,000 fans it’s more about looking at clubs like Preston, Bolton, Blackpool and now Blackburn (and many more) and feeling pretty fortunate of how good the last 15 years has been for our club.

Each to their own - but without that kind of perspective of where we have been and where other clubs are then personally it’s a lot harder to take seasons like we have just had.

[CoolClaret]

That’s just a dumb argument tho….

Anyway, I fear some of you will be delighted when you get your wish and Kompany is replaced by someone like Rosenior/Robins.

Be careful what you wish for, I’m sure you will all be happy with the club treading water in the 2nd tier

I don't want him replaced, I think there's scope for growth. Never once said I wanted him replaced either but keep projecting...

The only thing that I am concerned about is the amount of noise that keeps surrounding the club now. It's quite exhausting and though I do believe Sacha is full of sh1t, I am slightly concerned about VK's team throwing his name out there, especially if it's under instruction (though that is just speculative at this point).

I'm also concerned of our chairman's inconsistency. A juvenile 'gif' response to a weaker link last week, then radio silence when stronger links come in - there's been a lot of that as well since he came in.

[KRBFC]

I don't want him replaced, I think there's scope for growth. Never once said I wanted him replaced either but keep projecting...

The only thing that I am concerned about is the amount of noise that keeps surrounding the club now. It's quite exhausting and though I do believe Sacha is full of sh1t, I am slightly concerned about VK's team throwing his name out there, especially if it's under instruction (though that is just speculative at this point).

I'm also concerned of our chairman's inconsistency. A juvenile 'gif' response to a weaker link last week, then radio silence when stronger links come in - there's been a lot of that as well since he came in.

And the rest…..

You may as well tell us the things you’re willing to support, there can’t be many aside from Muric playing in goal.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Going off his username I'd say born in 1993 or started criticising sorry started watching us since 1993, either way they've seen nothing since 1993 compared to the 80's

Nope your logic is just flawed. You can’t say last season was the best season ever (because of how many points we got) then dismiss a comment saying well this is the worst season we have ever had because of the points.

[CoolClaret]

coolclaret and newcastle in agreement, it would be a concern if 1 of them thought the other was wrong.

Both are fed up of football, Burnley FC, don't like many players, don't like the owners, don't like the manager and like to tell people how close they are to being done with football.

Sadly for everyone else that day seems as far away as ever

Actually I regularly disagree with NC93.

Just saying there's no other way to describe the season as being extremely poor. It is what it is.

Yes it is - but who cares about the “relative to division” lens ?
We finished 19th out of 92 clubs in probably the strongest football leagues in the world. We have spent many years in far lower positions than this and some years in the bottom 10% of that 92 clubs.

I’m not pretending that this season was enjoyable - very clearly it wasn’t for the vast majority of supporters. But if you want to use words like “relative” then relative to our history these are halcyon days. It’s not about the Orient game or getting beat 6-0 at home to Hereford in front of 2,000 fans it’s more about looking at clubs like Preston, Bolton, Blackpool and now Blackburn (and many more) and feeling pretty fortunate of how good the last 15 years has been for our club.

Each to their own - but without that kind of perspective of where we have been and where other clubs are then personally it’s a lot harder to take seasons like we have just had.

No doubt about all that but one or two disastrous seasons in quick succession can undo all that good very quickly.

Personally I've just been extremely underwhelmed by pretty much the entire footballing operation since the start of the season to now. I think the entire club has entirely underperformed - it is what it is.

Have to acknowledge that before we go anywhere.

[CoolClaret]

And the rest…..

You may as well tell us the things you’re willing to support, there can’t be many aside from Muric playing in goal.

I like a lot of aspects of the approach to games - a few more tweaks and getting better at in game management and we'll look a much better team.

For me results on the pitch is paramount, I wanted Muric because I don't believe the Traff was neither ready nor had the ability to do what we need a keeper to do, to get results consistently and I also believe the early season team selections were daft and not what you do after achieving promotion.

I also don't believe young players should be given so many minutes - I'm not sure what the rush is with it. Need to be managed better.

[AGENT_CLARET]

Nope your logic is just flawed. You can’t say last season was the best season ever (because of how many points we got) then dismiss a comment saying well this is the worst season we have ever had because of the points.

I've never said last season was the best season because of the POINT'S because point's as nothing to do with it, You also NEVER said this is the worst season ever because of the point's, you said this is the worst season ever in the club's history, Big difference.

[123EasyasBFC]

I mean statistically it is the worst season we've had relative to division, that's a fact.

When does anyone compare stats to different leagues they are on, we won more games in the championship least season than the season we got into Europe, that doesn’t make last season a better season.

Stats wise this season is the worst in our clubs premier league history

[Newcastleclaret93]

When does anyone compare stats to different leagues they are on, we won more games in the championship least season than the season we got into Europe, that doesn’t make last season a better season.

Stats wise this season is the worst in our clubs premier league history

It’s the worst season in history because we have never had less regardless of the league we are in.

[CoolClaret]

When does anyone compare stats to different leagues they are on, we won more games in the championship least season than the season we got into Europe, that doesn’t make last season a better season.

Stats wise this season is the worst in our clubs premier league history

I appreciate that and do agree there's nuance to be had but I do believe that to go forward we have to acknowledge that this was pure sh1te, rather than obfuscate it and make excuses or blame how strong the division is.

Acknowledge it, learn from it and drive forward.

[claretonthecoast1882]

I appreciate that and do agree there's nuance to be had but I do believe that to go forward we have to acknowledge that this was pure sh1te, rather than obfuscate it and make excuses or blame how strong the division is.

Acknowledge it, learn from it and drive forward.

Nobody has ever said it wasn't a shite season have they ?

Trotting out it is the worst season in our history is both dumb and wrong though.

[Big Vinny K]

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/gps-capi ... member_ios

Unfortunately it’s this kind of ******** coming out of the club that is distracting us from the basics of getting things right on the pitch. This owning clubs around the world nonsense to give our players experience is ridiculous. Talk about running before we can walk. How are these partnerships with the likes of Dundee, the welsh club etc helping the club in any way ? It’s a complete waste of resources and money. It offers nothing extra to just sending out players through the normal loan process.

[123EasyasBFC]

It’s the worst season in history because we have never had less regardless of the league we are in.

It’s not the worse season in the clubs history regardless of the points we got, nearly going out the football league is the worst season in the club’s history.

You have argued so many times on here that stats aren’t the be all and end all but when it suits you want to use them.

Even by your standards this is poor.

You didn’t answer the fact that Portsmouth having more wins than wolves this season, does that mean Portsmouth have had a better season?

[123EasyasBFC]

I appreciate that and do agree there's nuance to be had but I do believe that to go forward we have to acknowledge that this was pure sh1te, rather than obfuscate it and make excuses or blame how strong the division is.

Acknowledge it, learn from it and drive forward.

Nobody is claiming this season has been good it’s been a shambles but to try and claim it’s the worst in the clubs history due to amount of points and bend stats that way isn’t right. It has to be relevant to the league you are in and compared to previous times in the league.

[123EasyasBFC]

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/gps-capi ... member_ios

Unfortunately it’s this kind of ******** coming out of the club that is distracting us from the basics of getting things right on the pitch. This owning clubs around the world nonsense to give our players experience is ridiculous. Talk about running before we can walk. How are these partnerships with the likes of Dundee, the welsh club etc helping the club in any way ? It’s a complete waste of resources and money. It offers nothing extra to just sending out players through the normal loan process.

That video really isn’t that big of a deal

[NewClaret]

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/gps-capi ... member_ios

Unfortunately it’s this kind of ******** coming out of the club that is distracting us from the basics of getting things right on the pitch. This owning clubs around the world nonsense to give our players experience is ridiculous. Talk about running before we can walk. How are these partnerships with the likes of Dundee, the welsh club etc helping the club in any way ? It’s a complete waste of resources and money. It offers nothing extra to just sending out players through the normal loan process.

That’s just a nonsense.

Kompany is accountable for the playing side and that all takes place at Barnfield. He has to take the blame for this season, learn the lessons and get better (if he stays). Thats what ALK employ him to do.

There’s then a business side which will be run seperately and that’s the same at every club. That will also be working on lots of things to move the club forward in different ways and employ lots of people to do it.

What they’re working on won’t be a distraction to Kompany, the team or getting things right in the pitch. I doubt they’ll even know it exists because unlike fans they probably don’t trawl the internet looking for any snippet of club information to pour and overreact over.

[Big Vinny K]

That’s just a nonsense.

Kompany is accountable for the playing side and that all takes place at Barnfield. He has to take the blame for this season, learn the lessons and get better (if he stays). Thats what ALK employ him to do.

There’s then a business side which will be run seperately and that’s the same at every club. That will also be working on lots of things to move the club forward in different ways and employ lots of people to do it.

What they’re working on won’t be a distraction to Kompany, the team or getting things right in the pitch. I doubt they’ll even know it exists because unlike fans they probably don’t trawl the internet looking for any snippet of club information to pour and overreact over.

I don’t trawl the internet - but thanks for the comment. It came up on my notifications.
Personally I think it’s another example of the owners lack of understanding of football in this country.
I’m not saying it’s a massive issue and I’m not overreacting as you are suggesting.
As said I just think we are getting a lot of things wrong off and on the pitch and I also do not see how a lot of the new commercial initiatives we have brought in are making a difference to our revenue lines (but they are increasing our costs with the number of new roles created in these areas)

[Newcastleclaret93]

It’s not the worse season in the clubs history regardless of the points we got, nearly going out the football league is the worst season in the club’s history.

You have argued so many times on here that stats aren’t the be all and end all but when it suits you want to use them.

Even by your standards this is poor.

You didn’t answer the fact that Portsmouth having more wins than wolves this season, does that mean Portsmouth have had a better season?

We are comparing other teams here though your changing the discussion

The better comparison is the season Portsmouth were relegated to this season

Clearly this Portsmouth better season

[NewClaret]

I don’t trawl the internet - but thanks for the comment. It came up on my notifications.
Personally I think it’s another example of the owners lack of understanding of football in this country.
I’m not saying it’s a massive issue and I’m not overreacting as you are suggesting.
As said I just think we are getting a lot of things wrong off and on the pitch and I also do not see how a lot of the new commercial initiatives we have brought in are making a difference to our revenue lines (but they are increasing our costs with the number of new roles created in these areas)

I wasn’t saying you had, just that as a general rule Burnley fans do and overreact to things they find. That for example will just be a client testimonial they’ve been asked to do for a supplier, which happen in the business world every day - no reason at all we shouldn’t be the same.

I don’t know whether we’re getting things wrong or not. What I do know is the way we were operating pre takeover wasn’t sustainable (hoarding cash, recruiting older players at peak/reaching the end of their careers). Although the hoarding cash part appears now to have been done to fund the owners exit.

What we appear to be doing now is trying to plot a different approach that might sustain a Premier League club in future using the multi-club model and presumably talent attraction/re-sale. I don’t even think that’s established yet so way to early to know if it will work, but it will be delivered by the business side of BFC so no reason it should distract the key people on the football side - the manager, coaches and players.

No idea on the £ generated from our commercial but recall them saying they are trying to partner with company’s that can “grow with us”. Imagine that means very limited up front financial value, with the hope of longer term success. I’m sceptical on that front but something worth exploring else we’re treading water and again not sure at all how it’d distract the playing staff.

[Chester Perry]

That video really isn’t that big of a deal

The key takeaway is the record number of 250 full time employees - much larger than before - though it could be argued we were understaffed as a Premier League club under Garlick - the measure as Big Vinny K points out is the return in revenues particularly on the commercial side, which given that is one of the areas Pace and others had mentioned as a growth opportunity is both surprising and disappointing - it is also one of the areas with the greatest levels of staff turnover in senior personnel, which to me seems counter-productive to building commercial relationships.

It will be interesting to see if Stuart Hunt who now appears to carry Director responsibility for this side of operations has had any positive impact now he is resident in the area and much more actively involved in club activities.

[123EasyasBFC]

We are comparing other teams here though your changing the discussion

The better comparison is the season Portsmouth were relegated to this season

Clearly this Portsmouth better season

So you are now comparing Portsmouth to the season they are relegated from the premier league, so you now argue that stats can only be relate to the league not the clubs history then.

You have gone against your own argument, not the first time you have done that… Jack Clarke springs to mind

[123EasyasBFC]

The key takeaway is the record number of 250 full time employees - much larger than before - though it could be argued we were understaffed as a Premier League club under Garlick - the measure as Big Vinny K points out is the return in revenues particularly on the commercial side, which given that is one of the areas Pace and others had mentioned as a growth opportunity is both surprising and disappointing - it is also one of the areas with the greatest levels of staff turnover in senior personnel, which to me seems counter-productive to building commercial relationships.

It will be interesting to see if Stuart Hunt who now appears to carry Director responsibility for this side of operations has had any positive impact now he is resident in the area and much more actively involved in club activities.

It was more the fact that this specific video really had no baring on the football being played by us

[Big Vinny K]

I wasn’t saying you had, just that as a general rule Burnley fans do and overreact to things they find. That for example will just be a client testimonial they’ve been asked to do for a supplier, which happen in the business world every day - no reason at all we shouldn’t be the same.

I don’t know whether we’re getting things wrong or not. What I do know is the way we were operating pre takeover wasn’t sustainable (hoarding cash, recruiting older players at peak/reaching the end of their careers). Although the hoarding cash part appears now to have been done to fund the owners exit.

What we appear to be doing now is trying to plot a different approach that might sustain a Premier League club in future using the multi-club model and presumably talent attraction/re-sale. I don’t even think that’s established yet so way to early to know if it will work, but it will be delivered by the business side of BFC so no reason it should distract the key people on the football side - the manager, coaches and players.

No idea on the £ generated from our commercial but recall them saying they are trying to partner with company’s that can “grow with us”. Imagine that means very limited up front financial value, with the hope of longer term success. I’m sceptical on that front but something worth exploring else we’re treading water and again not sure at all how it’d distract the playing staff.

Well directly it does not impact how we play against Chelsea at 3pm on a Saturday no.
But indirectly anything that costs money or resources will impact ultimately on the team and what is available to spend.
I don’t think we tread water under Garlick - the number of staff we employed went up significantly under Dyche. The investment into the training ground is one of the most important things we have ever done as a club but along side this we know that we also invested in a number of key areas such as the analysis team. The whole purpose of any of this investment was to help Dyche and therefore help the team.

The new owners are trying different things which they are perfectly entitled to do. Whilst the staffing numbers under the new owners are not actually that different to under Garlick we know that there has been a massive turnover of the staff and that the structure and roles are significantly different. Personally (and I am not speaking as a layman here who has never worked with football clubs or who has no knowledge of our finances) I do not see how these initiatives are introducing new revenue streams, increasing existing revenue streams etc.

What I do see is that we have introduced a number of new (new to us anyway) financial strategies in managing our cashflow and the way we manage our finances. These have introduced some pretty significant costs for the club (millions not thousands).

And for all these complex and new initiatives the only real thing that so far seems to have increased our revenue lines is increasing our season ticket and match day revenues.

Yes it’s relatively early days but right now I see a lot more things that concern me about how the club is being ran than give me cause for optimism (and I was one of the people at the outset that defended the new owners)

[CoolClaret]

Nobody is claiming this season has been good it’s been a shambles but to try and claim it’s the worst in the clubs history due to amount of points and bend stats that way isn’t right. It has to be relevant to the league you are in and compared to previous times in the league.

Not bending any stats mate.

It's our worst top flight campaign then - that better?

[123EasyasBFC]

Not bending any stats mate.

It's our worst top flight campaign then - that better?

Yes absolutely no argument it’s the worst top flight season ever, I’d go as far as to say really pound for pound with the money spent we are the worst team in prem history.

But no way at all is this the worst season in our history.

My argument is Newcastle claiming the stats say it’s the worst in our history but stats would say last season was our best in history when the season we since 7th is a much better season than last season

[distortiondave]

Take your points per game average over the season and divide it by the tier you are in at the end of the season; so we get 0.63 points per game this year. Last year we got 101/46 is 2.19 points per game. Divide that by 2 (because 2nd tier football) gives you 1.09ppg.
If we got 101 points in league 1, that would work out at 0.73, and in league 2 that would work out at 0.54ppg.

So, due to completely scientifically sound and not at all arbitrary or made up statistical evidence, this season is worse than getting 101 points in tiers 2 or 3, but better than getting 101 points in tier 4. 1987 would yield a ppg of 0.26, making this season almost 3 times better than that season, as evidenced by irrefutable logic and fact.

[Claret Till I Die]

Take your points per game average over the season and divide it by the tier you are in at the end of the season; so we get 0.63 points per game this year. Last year we got 101/46 is 2.19 points per game. Divide that by 2 (because 2nd tier football) gives you 1.09ppg.
If we got 101 points in league 1, that would work out at 0.73, and in league 2 that would work out at 0.54ppg.

So, due to completely scientifically sound and not at all arbitrary or made up statistical evidence, this season is worse than getting 101 points in tiers 2 or 3, but better than getting 101 points in tier 4. 1987 would yield a ppg of 0.26, making this season almost 3 times better than that season, as evidenced by irrefutable logic and fact.

Stick to flogging washers.....

[JR1882]

Absolutely is a shout to say this has been the least enjoyable season many of us have ever seen. And I’ve heard people including the late 80s in that as well.

[distortiondave]

Stick to flogging washers.....

You're not the boss of me!

[Big Vinny K]

Take your points per game average over the season and divide it by the tier you are in at the end of the season; so we get 0.63 points per game this year. Last year we got 101/46 is 2.19 points per game. Divide that by 2 (because 2nd tier football) gives you 1.09ppg.
If we got 101 points in league 1, that would work out at 0.73, and in league 2 that would work out at 0.54ppg.

So, due to completely scientifically sound and not at all arbitrary or made up statistical evidence, this season is worse than getting 101 points in tiers 2 or 3, but better than getting 101 points in tier 4. 1987 would yield a ppg of 0.26, making this season almost 3 times better than that season, as evidenced by irrefutable logic and fact.

Like your thinking
Did you by chance work for the Post Office at any time between 2000 and 2019 ?

[quoonbeatz]

Its just the modern era's telegraph sandwich boards or clubcall one liners isn't it? Its not new, it is, however, usually easier to dismiss pretty quickly

I'd have way more respect if they described everyone cryptically as 'ace' or 'star', despite the subject playing for FC Zloty reserves.

[Bordeauxclaret]

I'd have way more respect if they described everyone cryptically as 'ace' or 'star', despite the subject playing for FC Zloty reserves.

You must have some respect for Alan Nixon then.

[Rowls]

Take your points per game average over the season and divide it by the tier you are in at the end of the season; so we get 0.63 points per game this year. Last year we got 101/46 is 2.19 points per game. Divide that by 2 (because 2nd tier football) gives you 1.09ppg.
If we got 101 points in league 1, that would work out at 0.73, and in league 2 that would work out at 0.54ppg.

So, due to completely scientifically sound and not at all arbitrary or made up statistical evidence, this season is worse than getting 101 points in tiers 2 or 3, but better than getting 101 points in tier 4. 1987 would yield a ppg of 0.26, making this season almost 3 times better than that season, as evidenced by irrefutable logic and fact.

It also makes this season better than the Jimmy Mullen 4th division championship season.

Just goes to show you can prove anything with science.

[Vegas Claret]

I mean statistically it is the worst season we've had relative to division, that's a fact.

I told you facts matter mate

[helmclaret]

Take your points per game average over the season and divide it by the tier you are in at the end of the season; so we get 0.63 points per game this year. Last year we got 101/46 is 2.19 points per game. Divide that by 2 (because 2nd tier football) gives you 1.09ppg.
If we got 101 points in league 1, that would work out at 0.73, and in league 2 that would work out at 0.54ppg.

So, due to completely scientifically sound and not at all arbitrary or made up statistical evidence, this season is worse than getting 101 points in tiers 2 or 3, but better than getting 101 points in tier 4. 1987 would yield a ppg of 0.26, making this season almost 3 times better than that season, as evidenced by irrefutable logic and fact.

Are you on that two day bender in Germany about now?

[distortiondave]

It's a four day bender, but not yet. Fly out tomorrow, so I'll offer some unsolicited opinions about Vincent Kompany to anyone I find wearing a Bayern Munich shirt.