What are Pace & The Board thinking now?

[ksrclaret]

Oh heck, the dreaded vote of confidence.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Link?

https://t.co/BhTTK3Mjj1

[claretonthecoast1882]

Looks the like owners are going to stick with VK regardless now.

JJ Watt has said he’s not going anywhere on the Pat Mcnaffy show. Got to wonder what the hell there thinking.

In what way ? Did you expect to hear him say he will be sacked very soon ?

[Burnley1989]

They are being smart and not listening to people on social media and on here

They're probably thinking what 90% of our fan base are, sometimes managers don't get it right first time, lets give him a chance to put it right.

[Clive 1960]

There's know way he will get sacked they are all in it together and Vincent like Sean should be given a chance to get us back up if we are to be relegated..

[Boss Hogg]

No Plan B ? If he stays on and we keep losing at the same rate there are going to be an awful lot of dead rubber games this season. Not convinced that will help renewals or how the club is perceived to the outside world.I’d prefer early decisive action or none at all though. Not this late in the day stuff like we did with Dyche when it was too late to change the outcome. However anyone who thinks we will just walk the Championship again is deluded. The heart and soul has been ripped out of last seasons team.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Choosing someone else would defeat the purpose. You've said we will make money on them all, I've picked one and you've baulked.

Let me know if you decide to put your money where your mouth is.

Bore off

You’ve purposely picked the man who’s ill and still recovering

Says a lot about you tbh

I’m not betting on him, I’ve told you why and still you’re droning on about just him

You’ve chosen to not pick a more suitable player so you’re the one backing out

Enjoy that one sunshine

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Looks the like owners are going to stick with VK regardless now.

JJ Watt has said he’s not going anywhere on the Pat Mcnaffy show. Got to wonder what the hell there thinking.

They’re thinking long term, not short term like a number on here do

[KRBFC]

We'll have to disagree. The only player we paid a low price for was Koloesho, who is probably (at this stage) our joint most successful signing along with Berge, who we probably paid around market value for.

I don't think it's unfair to suggest there is more risk attached to a few other signings we've made. The claim that they'll all automatically be sold for at least what we paid for can be challenged. There's no guarantee of that.

You’re acting like we can only sell players bought this summer You’re out of your mind if you don’t think the likes of Benson (£2m), Al Dakhil (£2.5m), Foster (£8m), Zaroury (£2.5m) have significantly rose in price.

[KRBFC]

Criminally overlooked player especially with O’Shea in front of him, mind boggling, there’s a few like that at the moment though.

The same Ekdal who has been injured for the last two months, has he even played any minutes for the 21’s?

You willing gave up the fact you did not watch the game against West Ham but you were criticising everything about it.

[boyyanno]

Bore off

You’ve purposely picked the man who’s ill and still recovering

Says a lot about you tbh

I’m not betting on him, I’ve told you why and still you’re droning on about just him

You’ve chosen to not pick a more suitable player so you’re the one backing out

Enjoy that one sunshine

Awww diddums, guess you don't think we will make money on every player like you said then

[Jakubclaret]

Looks the like owners are going to stick with VK regardless now.

JJ Watt has said he’s not going anywhere on the Pat Mcnaffy show.

"Got to wonder what the hell there thinking".

Let me help you out with that 1, it's going to cost sh1tloads to get rid of him & a replacement incoming & most of the fanbase (seemingly) are prepared to accept relegation & go again next season & you would be pretty confident he'd repeat the same trick. After paying dyche off the penny has probably dropped it's an expensive caper hiring & firing managers especially when they are sitting on lengthy contracts.

[Westleigh]

"Got to wonder what the hell there thinking".

Let me help you out with that 1, it's going to cost sh1tloads to get rid of him & a replacement incoming & most of the fanbase (seemingly) are prepared to accept relegation & go again next season & you would be pretty confident he'd repeat the same trick. After paying dyche off the penny has probably dropped it's an expensive caper hiring & firing managers especially when they are sitting on lengthy contracts.

There’s a hell of a lot of staff to pay off if VK goes.

[Jakubclaret]

There’s a hell of a lot of staff to pay off if VK goes.

Exactly it'd cost a fortune & to a certain degree kompany has got pace over a barrel.

[KRBFC]

On transfer market the summer spend is £111 million

Zeki Amdouni
€18.60m

James Trafford
€17.30m

Aaron Ramsey
€16.45m

Jordan Beyer
€15.00m

Sander Berge
€13.90m

Wilson Odobert
€12.00m

Dara O'Shea
€7.80m

Michael Obafemi
€4.00m

Hannes Delcroix
€3.00m

Luca Koleosho
€3.00m

You posted figures in euros, that is not £111m your conversion is way off. Also those figures are not accurate, Delcroix was reported at like £1m.

How much of those fees are heavily performance incentivised? For example we have not spent £19m on Trafford, it was reported the fee COULD reach £19m depending on varying factors, I imagine those factors will be England caps and PL survival which would see his value become more than £19m.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

The same Ekdal who has been injured for the last two months, has he even played any minutes for the 21’s?

You willing gave up the fact you did not watch the game against West Ham but you were criticising everything about it.

You going on an unrelated rant again

I haven’t criticised anything about a game I didn’t watch don’t be silly.

[NewClaret]

Exactly it'd cost a fortune & to a certain degree kompany has got pace over a barrel.

No more so than any other manager has their club chairman.

On the specific point of management teams, I think I’m right in saying managers have preferable exit clauses written in to their contracts. Some of their immediate team do too, but the majority are employees who would be exited on very standard terms (i.e. very little if you have less than two years service).

On the broader point, I agree that it’s an expensive business getting rid of managers. I think we can all understand why Pace potted Dyche in the position we were in. We gave VK a new contract in summer and rightly so given his achievements so it’ll be expensive getting rid, but I go back to my overriding point that no team I can recall have ever been successful by regularly sacking managers.

The bigger cost in my mind is the money Kompany has spent building his squad. This was necessary because Garlick, and to an extent Dyche in my opinion, left it in a poor state with aging players, some running their contracts down and a few already past it. Relegation didn’t help of course. So whereas any other incoming manager would probably have re-engineered his squad over 5 years, Kompany has had to do it in 3 windows. They’re all here for him and the style he’s sold them. Any other manager in the world would want some budget put his own stamp on the squad, which I think everyone is pretty sure doesn’t exist. Plus you might end up with a load wanting to leave.

So that’s where I think it’d be most expensive to sack our manager - but very circumstantial and not massively different to how expensive it is for any football club.

[NewClaret]

You’re acting like we can only sell players bought this summer You’re out of your mind if you don’t think the likes of Benson (£2m), Al Dakhil (£2.5m), Foster (£8m), Zaroury (£2.5m) have significantly rose in price.

When you look at that, it’s no wonder we’re struggling to beat reams like West Ham who are spending £30-£40m on a couple of players, with £15-£20m players on the bench, while a good proportion of our squad is padded out with players who cost c£2m.

But I think comparing relative values is a bit pointless. The way I see it, when any player signs with us, their value is immediately £0 until such time as someone else puts in an offer.

We can only really play 11 players regularly. It’s unlikely that our subs are going to get enough game time to rise in value. So at any one time you have 11 who you’d hope are increasing in value, but even if they’re not all doing that at the same time, as long as 2-3 are, the model will work and Pace will be happy with it. Koleosho is definitely one of those and I imagine another couple will join him by seasons end.

Then those not in the team / squad need to improve in the background ready to be the next one. That’s Kompany’s job and I’d imagine he’ll be getting loads of data on how that’s happening to show to the board.

[Jakubclaret]

No more so than any other manager has their club chairman.

On the specific point of management teams, I think I’m right in saying managers have preferable exit clauses written in to their contracts. Some of their immediate team do too, but the majority are employees who would be exited on very standard terms (i.e. very little if you have less than two years service).

On the broader point, I agree that it’s an expensive business getting rid of managers. I think we can all understand why Pace potted Dyche in the position we were in. We gave VK a new contract in summer and rightly so given his achievements so it’ll be expensive getting rid, but I go back to my overriding point that no team I can recall have ever been successful by regularly sacking managers.

The bigger cost in my mind is the money Kompany has spent building his squad. This was necessary because Garlick, and to an extent Dyche in my opinion, left it in a poor state with aging players, some running their contracts down and a few already past it. Relegation didn’t help of course. So whereas any other incoming manager would probably have re-engineered his squad over 5 years, Kompany has had to do it in 3 windows. They’re all here for him and the style he’s sold them. Any other manager in the world would want some budget put his own stamp on the squad, which I think everyone is pretty sure doesn’t exist. Plus you might end up with a load wanting to leave.

So that’s where I think it’d be most expensive to sack our manager - but very circumstantial and not massively different to how expensive it is for any football club.

"No more so than any other manager has their club chairman".

I can't think of any other club our size with a leveraged takeover with a manager commanding such a wage the circumstances are different. Pace hasn't any other option but to be patient & dyche left a good legacy the players might have been old but pope & JT & mee are still doing it it's not as if they are past it, they might not have provided resale but you got good long service out of the 3. Kompany hasn't revolutionised much he's signed some potentially promising players who might cut it the signs so far haven't looked good, not 1 week (international break apart) goes by where they aren't making game changing errors.
.

[Big Vinny K]

You don’t even understand what a leveraged buyout means.
You think there are many clubs our size who are debt free?

[Jakubclaret]

Not the exact circumstances where cash was built up in reserve & used towards the purchase & loans taken out. It's common knowledge prior to the takeover the club financially was in a strong position & well run.

[CoolClaret]

You don’t even understand what a leveraged buyout means.
You think there are many clubs our size who are debt free?

I mean

We once were in the (extremely recent) past - comfortably debt free in fact.

[Big Vinny K]

I mean

We once were in the (extremely recent) past - comfortably debt free in fact.

Yes we were - then he sold the club and pocketed a lot of money.
We were the exception then not the norm.

[Big Vinny K]

Not the exact circumstances where cash was built up in reserve & used towards the purchase & loans taken out. It's common knowledge prior to the takeover the club financially was in a strong position & well run.

And who do you think was responsible for structuring the deal in this way ?
Nobody made them sell the club

[Jakubclaret]

It doesn’t hide away from the fact that we was debt free & now we are not.

[Big Vinny K]

Who said it does ?
But what exactly is your point ?

The people who ensured we were debt free were the same people who then put us in debt by selling the club in the full knowledge of the fact that we would be in debt.

We just need to count ourselves lucky that we had such a long period debt free when so few clubs can enjoy the success we did without the burden of any debt.

The position we found ourselves in now is the same as many clubs. Surprisingly you can still be a well managed club with debt - just like most people in the country manage their finances satisfactorily with mortgages and loans.

[Jakubclaret]

You asked for an example & you was given 1.

[Big Vinny K]

What are you taking about now ?

Why are you bothered about something completely outside of your control and something you have so little understanding about ?

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

I hope hafners hasn’t shut early again!

[CoolClaret]

The position we found ourselves in now is the same as many clubs. Surprisingly you can still be a well managed club with debt - just like most people in the country manage their finances satisfactorily with mortgages and loans.

My concern with this model is that we aren’t a club that has the natural resource to handle our debt if we don’t have a few seasons in the PL and I don’t think it’s the priority of the current board.

They’re quite happy to have a considerable level of operating debt as long as the club/football continues to grow in value.

I just wish we had less risk and future proofed ourself better.

The absolute last thing we need is to be like some of the clubs are in the Championship right now. Frightening

[Jakubclaret]

What are you taking about now ?

Why are you bothered about something completely outside of your control and something you have so little understanding about ?

You got your example you asked for anything else at that point became irrelevant.

[Big Vinny K]

My concern with this model is that we aren’t a club that has the natural resource to handle our debt if we don’t have a few seasons in the PL and I don’t think it’s the priority of the current board.

They’re quite happy to have a considerable level of operating debt as long as the club/football continues to grow in value.

I just wish we had less risk and future proofed ourself better.

The absolute last thing we need is to be like some of the clubs are in the Championship right now. Frightening

Nothing you or any of us can do though.
That’s the way the club was sold.

[Big Vinny K]

You got your example you asked for anything else at that point became irrelevant.

Still don’t know what you are talking about.

I didn’t ask for any examples.

[CoolClaret]

Nothing you or any of us can do though.
That’s the way the club was sold.

I can voice my displeasure from time to time - about as much as I can do yes.

[Jakubclaret]

You think there are many clubs our size who are debt free?

I always thought a question mark was supposed to be followed up with some sort of an answer.

[Big Vinny K]

You think there are many clubs our size who are debt free?

I always thought a question mark was supposed to be followed up with some sort of an answer.

So your answer to whether there are many clubs the size of Burnley who are debt free is Burnley ?
Are we debt free now ?

Fantastic….at last some great news.

[Jakubclaret]

So your answer to whether there are many clubs the size of Burnley who are debt free is Burnley ?
Are we debt free now ?

Fantastic….at last some great news.

It’s an answer even if you don’t agree with it.

[Big Vinny K]

It’s an answer even if you don’t agree with it.

Can’t make my mind up whether you are being obtuse or stupid.
I’ll put good money on the latter though.

[Jakubclaret]

Can’t make my mind up whether you are being obtuse or stupid.
I’ll put good money on the latter though.

I didn’t even answer the question despite you claiming that I did.

[NewClaret]

"No more so than any other manager has their club chairman".

I can't think of any other club our size with a leveraged takeover with a manager commanding such a wage the circumstances are different. Pace hasn't any other option but to be patient & dyche left a good legacy the players might have been old but pope & JT & mee are still doing it it's not as if they are past it, they might not have provided resale but you got good long service out of the 3. Kompany hasn't revolutionised much he's signed some potentially promising players who might cut it the signs so far haven't looked good, not 1 week (international break apart) goes by where they aren't making game changing errors.
.

Given there was recent investment of c£160m in the BFC holding companies I’m pretty sure that Pace has access to funds to pay Kompany off if he wants to. I just don’t think he wants to and nor would it be a decision I’d support.

On the leverage, nobody knows whether we have any leverage any longer. Or our financial position at all, really. It’s all a bit pointless debating when it’s something we know nothing about.

We did get good service from Tarks, Mee & Pope but 2 left on frees, one left on what I thought was a shocking fee, but passingly because he had one year left. Which was bad management. There’s no doubt about it, we were left with aging players running their contracts down & very few saleable assets which I was negligent. I mainly blame Garlick but Dyche also for not bringing younger players in.

I disagree that Kompany’s “hasn’t revolutionised much”. He’s completely transformed our transfer strategy from one that was pretty much non-existent and focused on signing old pros from Stoke to signing young, technically gifted players from Europe and developing them. I also disagree that “the signs so far haven’t looked good”. I think they’ve been excellent in the main, particularly on the attacking side. Willing to place a hefty wager that many of the current crop will sell for more than the maximum we received for any player last summer (£20m for Collins I think).

[CoolClaret]

I disagree that Kompany’s “hasn’t revolutionised much”. He’s completely transformed our transfer strategy from one that was pretty much non-existent and focused on signing old pros from Stoke to signing young, technically gifted players from Europe and developing them. I also disagree that “the signs so far haven’t looked good”. I think they’ve been excellent in the main, particularly on the attacking side. Willing to place a hefty wager that many of the current crop will sell for more than the maximum we received for any player last summer (£20m for Collins I think).

Sorry but can you please stop with this complete revisionist crap?

You can by all means be supportive of the current model - that’s fine, but to the extent where it means you just try and paint a picture of the old regime to make our current situation seem better than what it is.

It’s beyond boring listening to drivel takes on our previous manager and some of the players he developed and even sold for big money.

Just to show how stupid your point is - we sold McNeil for more than 20 mill and who made him?

[NewClaret]

Sorry but can you please stop with this complete revisionist crap?

You can by all means be supportive of the current model - that’s fine, but to the extent where it means you just try and paint a picture of the old regime to make our current situation seem better than what it is.

It’s beyond boring listening to drivel takes on our previous manager and some of the players he developed and even sold for big money.

Just to show how stupid your point is - we sold McNeil for more than 20 mill and who made him?

I don’t think anything I’ve said is revisionist.

They did a brilliant job in many many ways. They set the benchmarks for success that the current ‘regime’ will be measured against. Dyche produced and sold some great players and developed a system that worked for the PL. The football was decent at first but went downhill, arguably when the money dried up. But there’s no doubt that Garlick was tight and Dyche didn’t really bring through young players.

My point is about how they left the squad, which was undoubtedly aging and deteriorating - Lowton, Pieters, Lennon, Bardsley, for example - and OOC in Mee & Tarks’ case. Even had we stayed up I’d have said that was neglectful to have so many players reaching the end of their careers and contracts at the same time.

We ended up with only 4 saleable assets in Cornet, Collins, Pope and Dwight, which is poor.

It’s pretty hard to know who to blame here. Dyche blames Garlick, saying no money was available in the last few years. I can believe that but also quite possible that was because of the type of players he wanted to sign having no resale value.

We’ve probably gone too far the other way now, but it’s absolutely not revisionist to say Kompany (and Pace) have absolutely transformed our transfer strategy.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I don’t think anything I’ve said is revisionist.

They did a brilliant job in many many ways. They set the benchmarks for success that the current ‘regime’ will be measured against. Dyche produced and sold some great players and developed a system that worked for the PL. The football was decent at first but went downhill, arguably when the money dried up. But there’s no doubt that Garlick was tight and Dyche didn’t really bring through young players.

My point is about how they left the squad, which was undoubtedly aging and deteriorating - Lowton, Pieters, Lennon, Bardsley, for example - and OOC in Mee & Tarks’ case. Even had we stayed up I’d have said that was neglectful to have so many players reaching the end of their careers and contracts at the same time.

We ended up with only 4 saleable assets in Cornet, Collins, Pope and Dwight, which is poor.

It’s pretty hard to know who to blame here. Dyche blames Garlick, saying no money was available in the last few years. I can believe that but also quite possible that was because of the type of players he wanted to sign having no resale value.

We’ve probably gone too far the other way now, but it’s absolutely not revisionist to say Kompany (and Pace) have absolutely transformed our transfer strategy.

You do also uniquely forget that Pace and co had 18 months to tie down the better players.

He also had three transfer windows to bring players in. For some reason Dyche was given minimal funds by Pace across three windows, yet is happy to **** 100m up the wall on VK in one window.

If Dyche was given them funds we would we be our 8th season of premier league football.

[Holtyclaret]

You do also uniquely forget that Pace and co had 18 months to tie down the better players.

He also had three transfer windows to bring players in. For some reason Dyche was given minimal funds by Pace across three windows, yet is happy to **** 100m up the wall on VK in one window.

If Dyche was given them funds we would we be our 8th season of premier league football.

Spending money on young talent is far from ******* it up the wall, kind of the opposite.

Having now seen Paces willingness to spend on young talent over three windows its little wonder that he didn’t back the type of signings Dyche would have wanted (ageing and with little resale) or a manager that wasn’t of his choosing.

The clubs just moved on in a different direction, which I think will come to fruition in the near future. Not belittling in any way the golden era of Dyche.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Spending money on young talent is far from ******* it up the wall, kind of the opposite.

Having now seen Paces willingness to spend on young talent over three windows its little wonder that he didn’t back the type of signings Dyche would have wanted (ageing and with little resale) or a manager that wasn’t of his choosing.

The clubs just moved on in a different direction, which I think will come to fruition in the near future. Not belittling in any way the golden era of Dyche.

There’s a lot of irony in that though isn’t there. VK has signed what 33-34 players since becoming manager, yet the following players (ageing/ little resale) are featuring heavily in the premier league:

Roberts, Taylor, Brownhill, Jay, JBG

Dyche needed a smattering of younger talent (like McNeil) bringing in, but his model was the most efficient at staying in this league.

[Big Vinny K]

You do also uniquely forget that Pace and co had 18 months to tie down the better players.

He also had three transfer windows to bring players in. For some reason Dyche was given minimal funds by Pace across three windows, yet is happy to **** 100m up the wall on VK in one window.

If Dyche was given them funds we would we be our 8th season of premier league football.

And you “uniquely” forget that none of the players wanted to sign new contracts.

You also uniquely forget that Dyche was given more money to spend by Pace than he had been given in several windows by Garlick….and we still got relegated ostensibly under Dyche.

And your final piece of selective memory is that you slagged off Dyche just as much as you have done VK.

[NewClaret]

You do also uniquely forget that Pace and co had 18 months to tie down the better players.

He also had three transfer windows to bring players in. For some reason Dyche was given minimal funds by Pace across three windows, yet is happy to **** 100m up the wall on VK in one window.

If Dyche was given them funds we would we be our 8th season of premier league football.

So then you have to ask why wasn’t he given £100m?

The plausible explanations (in my view of likelihood):

1. The money didn’t exist then. Possibly because investment needed to be directed to the takeover or because nobody wanted to invest in Dyche or the football we were playing at the time. MTB clearly stated it was easier securing investment when the team were ’doing well’. Maybe in that sense Kompany earned his investment.

2. The money did exist but Pace didn’t trust Dyche to spend it. I refer back to the point about Garlick. Maybe they couldn’t agree on the type of players they wanted to sign.

3. The money did exist but Dyche chose not to spend it. Unlikely but plausible because I think Dyche was very loyal to his players.

I agree that Pace could & should have done more to secure longer contracts for Mee & Pope, but I think Tarks mind was made up some time earlier given the interview he gave. Although we shouldn’t have had our two main CBs contracts expiring at the same time in the first place.

I don’t agree that £100m has been ****ed up the wall at all btw

[taio]

There’s a lot of irony in that though isn’t there. VK has signed what 33-34 players since becoming manager, yet the following players (ageing/ little resale) are featuring heavily in the premier league:

Roberts, Taylor, Brownhill, Jay, JBG

Dyche needed a smattering of younger talent (like McNeil) bringing in, but his model was the most efficient at staying in this league.

You persistently slagged off Dyche when he was here.

[NewClaret]

There’s a lot of irony in that though isn’t there. VK has signed what 33-34 players since becoming manager, yet the following players (ageing/ little resale) are featuring heavily in the premier league:

Roberts, Taylor, Brownhill, Jay, JBG

Dyche needed a smattering of younger talent (like McNeil) bringing in, but his model was the most efficient at staying in this league.

I agree and I am not arguing that Dyche recruited badly, just that it’s in no way revisionist to say that Kompany and Pace have transformed our transfer strategy or that the team was left in a poor state.

We do need more experience but worth remembering that Dyche also got relegated in his first season, so hard to compare models at the stage.

[Holtyclaret]

There’s a lot of irony in that though isn’t there. VK has signed what 33-34 players since becoming manager, yet the following players (ageing/ little resale) are featuring heavily in the premier league:

Roberts, Taylor, Brownhill, Jay, JBG

Dyche needed a smattering of younger talent (like McNeil) bringing in, but his model was the most efficient at staying in this league.
[/quote]

Dyche was relegated in his first pl season while he found his formula and squad balance.

VK inherited pretty much no players so has had to build a squad twice in effect.

Jay wouldn’t be at the club if his contract ran out last summer and Roberts is currently understudy rb. JBG AND Brownhill playing well and adding some experience to our v young team. Taylor filling a void but by playing curbs the desired style of the team and will be replaced at first opportunity (not saying he hasn’t helped massively short term).

Not bashing Dyche but both managers have had/are having similar starts to their tenures.