More post brexit referendum good news!!!!

[Sidney1st]

The UK Government is acting like a superstate in taking Scotland and Northern Ireland out of the EU against their will

You answered your own comment.

[UpTheBeehole]

Fox says, without a majority, Tory Brexiters will have to 'live with disappointment'
In an interview with the Sun today Liam Fox, the international trade secretary and one of the cabinet’s leading Brexiters, said Tory Eurosceptics, such as those calling for the resignation of Philip Hammond, the chancellor, over the weekend, will have to learnt to “live with disappointment”. He told the paper:

It doesn’t help us for people to be involved in this sort of briefing they were over the weekend against individual colleagues because nothing that would happen would change the parliamentary arithmetic.

We don’t have a working majority, other than with the support of the Democratic Unionists and we need to accept the reality of that. I know that there are always disappointed individuals but they’re going to have to live with disappointment.

The Sun interprets this as Fox saying that Tory Brexiters will have to accept that they will not get the hard Brexit they want. The BBC this morning said Fox’s allies have been clarifying what he meant, and that the “disappointment” he was referring to was not getting the resignation of Hammond, but the Sun’s take on Fox’s words does seem very plausible. Not having a majority would not stop Theresa May sacking Hammond, but it probably would stop her legislating for a very hard Brexit.

[RingoMcCartney]

Great for the 35 on the right of the Tory party who can afford it I suppose, but what about hardworking people with families, with mortgages and food bills to pay?
People didn't knowingly vote for 15 years of decline.

The majority of those "hardworking people with families, with mortgages and food bills to pay" weighed up the pros and cons of 40 odd years of EU membership on their families, their communities and the counrty as a whole. They like me, feel that EU membership has seen 40 odd years of DEFINATE decline, especially in towns like Burnley.

Now you're using figures made by bodies that made wildly wrong PREDICTIONS about the economy Just over 18 months ago when you say ," People didn't knowingly vote for 15 years of decline. " Even though your assertion is based on bodies that have proven to be unreliable in its predictions ( and remember they've chosen not to include the option that the government is actually perusing!!) Your right. But please allow me to correct your statement

" People didn't vote for 15 years of PREDICTED decline. They decided to vote to Leave because they witnessed 40 odd years of ABSOLUTE AND DEFINATE decline while being in the EU"

Just ask the people you sit near at the next home game. The majority will confirm what I'm saying.....

[aggi]

WHAT POWER HAVE YOU GOT? - It's a pretty wide-ranging question, generally those powers from the Treaty of Lisbon which we signed up to
WHERE DID YOU GET IT FROM? - People who voted for them
IN WHOSE INTERESTS DO YOU EXERCISE IT? - People who voted for them
TO WHOM ARE YOU ACCOUNTABLE? - People who voted for them
HOW CAN WE GET RID OF YOU? - People don't vote for them

Hope that helps.

[RingoMcCartney]

Hope that helps.

Sadly it doesn't.

The Lisbon treaty enshrined in EU law "ever closer union"
That is an EU superstate. The majority of british people don't want this.

Who are you accountable to? - EU commissioners swear an oath of allegiance to the EU. Not their nations.
They are accountable and loyal to the EU. Not the UK.

How and when do I get to vote for one of the presidents? As long as I don't I cannot remove him.

Given its the Commision that drafts law, rules and regulations and the parliament is effectively a rubber stamping body. Just remind me how the Commisioners get their positions of power.

[quoonbeatz]

Brexiteers voted democracy first. Money second.

Self loathing, Anglophobic and weird economic masochists.

[UpTheBeehole]

Sadly it doesn't.

The Lisbon treaty enshrined in EU law "ever closer union"
That is an EU superstate. The majority of british people don't want this.

Who are you accountable to? - EU commissioners swear an oath of allegiance to the EU. Not their nations.
They are accountable and loyal to the EU. Not the UK.

How and when do I get to vote for one of the presidents? As long as I don't I cannot remove him.

You really struggle with this EU presidency thing don't you.


You don't vote for the UK Prime Minister either by the way.

[RingoMcCartney]

You really struggle with this EU presidency thing don't you.


You don't vote for the UK Prime Minister either by the way.

The People who live in the constituency of Maidenhead voted for Teresa May.

When was the last time Jean Claude Drunker pulled himself away from his well stocked drinks cabinet to be vulnerable to the popular ballot box?

You really struggle with democracy don't you.

[UpTheBeehole]

And the people of Luxembourg voted for Juncker

[nil_desperandum]

The majority of those "hardworking people with families, with mortgages and food bills to pay" weighed up the pros and cons of 40 odd years of EU membership on their families, their communities and the counrty as a whole. They like me, feel that EU membership has seen 40 odd years of DEFINATE decline, especially in towns like Burnley.
.

Yes they did weigh it up, and they voted to remain. I think it's absolutely certain that if you only included the votes of those who of working age and in work, then remain would have won comfortably.
If you look at the recently published data, you will note that this is most likely the group that deprived Mrs May of her majority at the election.
(Of course - this DOESN'T invalidate the result of the referendum, but I'm simply challenging your assertion (implied) that a majority of "hardworking people with families, with mortgages and food bills to pay" voted leave. It's not true.)

"Just ask the people you sit near at the next home game. The majority will confirm what I'm saying....."
Actually they definitely won't! .. of that I can assure you.

[Lancasterclaret]

You've been listening to james obrien too much, "unicorns, blue passports" get your own material.

Sadly for you, that is probably the best argument that you can come up with.

Nothing about how good its going to be, just more waffle about democracy, in which you and others prove yet again that you don't know what it means, and don't understand that there are more than one way to have "accountable democracy"

[UpTheBeehole]

As previously discussed in this thread: http://www.uptheclarets.com/messageboar ... rg#p511458

Jean Claude Juncker was first elected to parliament in 1984, and rose to be Prime Minister of Luxembourg in 1995. He was then elected to be Luxembourg's European Commissioner in 2014, and was also elected as president of the European Commission.

Understandable, the turnout for the European Parliament election was pretty low in 2014 was pretty low, about 35%. That's where the public voted for politicians to represent them in Europe and those elected politicians subsequently voted for Juncker.

If people weren't happy the President is ultimately accountable to the ballot box.

[Lancasterclaret]

You really struggle with democracy don't you.

Ringo, its getting very expensive replacing my irony filter every time you crash it.

[UpTheBeehole]

You Brexiters are ALWAYS wrong aren't you?

[RingoMcCartney]

And the people of Luxembourg voted for Juncker

Any idea when the millions of People of the other 27 countries in the EU get their turn?

[RingoMcCartney]

Ringo, its getting very expensive replacing my irony filter every time you crash it.

Well you could always address any of the points I'm making and try to counter them instead of just sneering.

[Sidney1st]

Yes they did weigh it up, and they voted to remain. I think it's absolutely certain that if you only included the votes of those who of working age and in work, then remain would have won comfortably.
If you look at the recently published data, you will note that this is most likely the group that deprived Mrs May of her majority at the election.
(Of course - this DOESN'T invalidate the result of the referendum, but I'm simply challenging your assertion (implied) that a majority of "hardworking people with families, with mortgages and food bills to pay" voted leave. It's not true.)

"Just ask the people you sit near at the next home game. The majority will confirm what I'm saying....."
Actually they definitely won't! .. of that I can assure you.

So the retired old fart knockers are dragging the UK out of the EU?

Based on the old fart knockers seeing 40 odd yrs of the EU, would that make their vote/opinion equally, more or less valid than those who've seen only half that period?
Just a question.

[android]

Just to be clear I am sure the latest leaked guesstimates do not predict 15 years of decline.
Very rare for economists to predict a recession (even though we get them often).

[jlup1980]

Ahhh Brexit. How refreshing to still be debating what the best course of action should be for the country. We'll get there one day, or at least we'll end up backed into a wall with no means of getting ourselves out of the huge hole we put ourselves in.

We can't go back because our position within the EU would be untenable but by leaving we now know how much of a struggle the next 20 odd years will be. I never feel sorry for the Tories usually but in this instance I do. Talk about stuck between a rock and a hard place. No matter which route they take it'll end badly!

[aggi]

Sadly it doesn't.

The Lisbon treaty enshrined in EU law "ever closer union"
That is an EU superstate. The majority of british people don't want this.

Who are you accountable to? - EU commissioners swear an oath of allegiance to the EU. Not their nations.
They are accountable and loyal to the EU. Not the UK.

How and when do I get to vote for one of the presidents? As long as I don't I cannot remove him.

Given its the Commision that drafts law, rules and regulations and the parliament is effectively a rubber stamping body. Just remind me how the Commisioners get their positions of power.

We've had this discussion a number of times but it seems you want to be able to vote individually for every person involved in the EU. Commissioners and the president have to be approved by the directly elected Parliament. How people vote in the EU elections will directly impact on who the EU president will be.

Obviously EU commissioners swear an oath of allegiance to the EU, it would be chaos with them all fighting for their individuals nations rather than the whole. The people who voted are the people of the EU.

The directly elected Parliament can get rid of the EU Commission and President. The power originates with the electorate.

You could describe Parliament as a rubber stamping body or you could describe it as a body that can review legislation, require that it be amended and refuse it if it desires.

I think we both know what your issue is, it's that you want the UK to somehow have the power to control all of this rather than the people of the EU as a whole. If so then fair enough but you can't pretend it's not democratic, just that you don't like not having a louder voice than everyone else in the democracy.

[Tall Paul]

Any idea when the millions of People of the other 27 countries in the EU get their turn?

Any idea when the millions of people of the other 649 constituencies in the UK get their turn to vote on Theresa May?

[SammyBoy]

If Labour were any good they'd hold on to power for a lot longer, so it's probably easier to say both sides are ****

When Sid hasn't defended the Tories for 10 minutes on UTC

[RingoMcCartney]

Yes they did weigh it up, and they voted to remain. I think it's absolutely certain that if you only included the votes of those who of working age and in work, then remain would have won comfortably.
If you look at the recently published data, you will note that this is most likely the group that deprived Mrs May of her majority at the election.
(Of course - this DOESN'T invalidate the result of the referendum, but I'm simply challenging your assertion (implied) that a majority of "hardworking people with families, with mortgages and food bills to pay" voted leave. It's not true.)

"Just ask the people you sit near at the next home game. The majority will confirm what I'm saying....."
Actually they definitely won't! .. of that I can assure you.

"but I'm simply challenging your assertion (implied) that a majority of "hardworking people with families, with mortgages and food bills to pay" voted leave. It's not true.)"

You're just using self confirmation there. What you're saying there is "I'm right and you're wrong and I know that I'm definately right cos I'm the one saying it!"

I look at it this way. The referendum was a exercise in taking the view of the British People. People were free to chose whether or not to vote there was no cohersion either to vote or not to. Consequently if you agree that it was a fair representaction of the populace and you agree that the majority of that populace are "
"hardworking people with families, with mortgages and food bills to pay" . And the majority of the voters voted Leave. Then the logical conclusion is that ""hardworking people with families, with mortgages and food bills to pay" voted Leave.

"Just ask the people you sit near at the next home game. The majority will confirm what I'm saying....."
Actually they definitely won't! .. of that I can assure you."



And I don't know where you sit. And I'm assuming that when I say the next home game for you will be Turf Moor! Then if the people sat near you are from Burnley, then given two thirds of Burnleyites voted to Leave, they'd agree with me. Your not in s special Remoaner section ate you!?

[UpTheBeehole]

Theresa May was elected by her local party to stand as their candidate. She was then voted by her local constituents to represent them in parliament. She was then chosen by the Conservative party to be leader of the Conservatives. She then became Prime Minister.

I never got a vote on any of that, and neither did you Ringo

[nil_desperandum]

So the retired old fart knockers are dragging the UK out of the EU?

Based on the old fart knockers seeing 40 odd yrs of the EU, would that make their vote/opinion equally, more or less valid than those who've seen only half that period?
Just a question.

So. To try to answer a rather complex question briefly.
Firstly "old fart" is not the term I used.
But - on the topic of retired people. If you ask leavers amongst them why they voted leave, they rarely - if ever mention economic benefits, and whilst they are protected by the pensions triple lock, perhaps they needn't be too worried.
Standing alone during WW2 is frequently cited, as is "getting our powers back", "blue passports" etc. Most argue that taking an economic hit is a price worth paying for these, but they've enjoyed the economic benefits and freedoms that the UK has enjoyed for the past 50 years, and - in many cases - show little concern that it's the next generation who will have to pay for it.
(By the way, I come into the "old fart" category).

[RingoMcCartney]

We've had this discussion a number of times but it seems you want to be able to vote individually for every person involved in the EU. Commissioners and the president have to be approved by the directly elected Parliament. How people vote in the EU elections will directly impact on who the EU president will be.

Obviously EU commissioners swear an oath of allegiance to the EU, it would be chaos with them all fighting for their individuals nations rather than the whole. The people who voted are the people of the EU.

The directly elected Parliament can get rid of the EU Commission and President. The power originates with the electorate.

You could describe Parliament as a rubber stamping body or you could describe it as a body that can review legislation, require that it be amended and refuse it if it desires.

I think we both know what your issue is, it's that you want the UK to somehow have the power to control all of this rather than the people of the EU as a whole. If so then fair enough but you can't pretend it's not democratic, just that you don't like not having a louder voice than everyone else in the democracy.

"The directly elected Parliament can get rid of the EU Commission and President. The power originates with the electorate."

In other words, we the People CANNOT get rid , via the ballot box, either the Commisioners nor the President.

Or in the words of the EU themselves. "There is a democratic deficit"

"Obviously EU commissioners swear an oath of allegiance to the EU, it would be chaos with them all fighting for their individuals nations rather than the whole."

So, by your own admission, Commissioners are appointed by the UK, yet in the role, which they're paid handsomely, they're expected, not to represent Britain, but to act on behalf and in the interests of the EU commission. That my friend is the definition of self-serving.

Catherine Ashton was APPOINTED by Gordon Brown as an EU commissioner. She was as incompetent as it gets. Never was she exposed to the Popular Ballot box.

I go back to Tony Benn. How can I get rid of you?

Answer - I can't.

[Sidney1st]

When Sid hasn't defended the Tories for 10 minutes on UTC

****

I do put the boot in aswell.

[nil_desperandum]

"but I'm simply challenging your assertion (implied) that a majority of "hardworking people with families, with mortgages and food bills to pay" voted leave. It's not true.)"

You're just using self confirmation there. What you're saying there is "I'm right and you're wrong and I know that I'm definately right cos I'm the one saying it!"

No I'm saying it because it's statistically true. I made it clear that I wasn't challenging the referendum result, but it's also absolutely clear that a majority of working people voted remain. (Simply subtract the number of retired people from the leave (and remain) totals and the result is reversed.)
And to state categorically - again: I am not arguing that the votes of retired people count for less than the others, I'm just supporting my case that the majority of working people did not vote to leave.

And I don't know where you sit. And I'm assuming that when I say the next home game for you will be Turf Moor! Then if the people sat near you are from Burnley, then given two thirds of Burnleyites voted to Leave, they'd agree with me. Your not in s special Remoaner section ate you!?

I'v been an ST holder since 1968. I have changed seats over the years, but not for the past decade or so. I know most of the people sat around me. Surprisingly we don't really discuss politics at the match, but I do know the political persuasions of the majority of them and their views on the EU don't correspond with yours.

[RingoMcCartney]

No I'm saying it because it's statistically true. I made it clear that I wasn't challenging the referendum result, but it's also absolutely clear that a majority of working people voted remain. (Simply subtract the number of retired people from the leave (and remain) totals and the result is reversed.)
And to state categorically - again: I am not arguing that the votes of retired people count for less than the others, I'm just supporting my case that the majority of working people did not vote to leave.



I'v been an ST holder since 1968. I have changed seats over the years, but not for the past decade or so. I know most of the people sat around me. Surprisingly we don't really discuss politics at the match, but I do know the political persuasions of the majority of them and their views on the EU don't correspond with yours.

You don't discuss politics, yet you know the political persuasions of the majority of them. Then given that 66% of Burnley voters chose to Leave, then it's fair to say that they're unrepresentative of the general voting population then.

Bloody hell this is like pulling teeth. Ok forget the Turf and seats and how long youve had a ST. But surely if you walked down a random street in Burnley. Given that 66% (I think) of Burnleyites voted to Leave. Then 2 out of every 3 would agree with me? Or are you going to try and use statistics to try and go against common sense?

Next you'll be saying , "I know that two thirds of Burnley folk voted Leave. But the majority agree with my viewpoint"

[aggi]

"The directly elected Parliament can get rid of the EU Commission and President. The power originates with the electorate."

In other words, we the People CANNOT get rid , via the ballot box, either the Commisioners nor the President.

Or in the words of the EU themselves. "There is a democratic deficit"

Catherine Ashton was APPOINTED by Gordon Brown as an EU commissioner. She was as incompetent as it gets. Never was she exposed to the Popular Ballot box.

I go back to Tony Benn. How can I get rid of you?

Answer - I can't.

Shall we do this again? Before the election the parties nominated their Presidents, Juncker was nominated by the EPP, the EPP got the most votes, Juncker became president. Maybe you didn't vote for him but more voted for him and his party than any of the others. If another party had won more votes then it would have been someone else. If they don't get as many votes next time it will be someone else. It's almost like you can get rid of them via the ballot box.

[UpTheBeehole]

Burnley has a population of 73,021 at last count.

28,854 voted to leave.

So 39.5% voted to leave.

Turf Moor is full of out of towners. Dilutes your sample even further.

[Sidney1st]

Does that mean we can't fit the population inside O/Trafford anymore?

[RingoMcCartney]

Shall we do this again? Before the election the parties nominated their Presidents, Juncker was nominated by the EPP, the EPP got the most votes, Juncker became president. Maybe you didn't vote for him but more voted for him and his party than any of the others. If another party had won more votes then it would have been someone else. If they don't get as many votes next time it will be someone else. It's almost like you can get rid of them via the ballot box.

Almost......

[UpTheBeehole]

Ringo how many times in your lifetime did you go and vote in the European elections?

How did you vote?

[Chip Harrison]

Does that mean we can't fit the population inside O/Trafford anymore?

It means we can all fit in and leave room for all the United fans who live in Manchester.

[RingoMcCartney]

Burnley has a population of 73,021 at last count.

28,854 voted to leave.

So 39.5% voted to leave.

Turf Moor is full of out of towners. Dilutes your sample even further.

Aah the classic Remoaner technique of taking the number who voted Leave as percentage of the general population as a way of trying to lesson the the figure. While simultaneously not producing the equivalent figures for the number that voted Remain.

So come on Stato, seeing that you have the figures at hand. What's the the figures as a percentage of the population of Burnley who voted Remain? Don't be giving us half a story to try and suit your, losing side, agenda!

Stop diluting the Burnley based facts eh!

[UpTheBeehole]

Remain is the status quo.

[RingoMcCartney]

Remain is the status quo.

It was the losing side.

Any luck on the the figures the percentage of the general population of Burnley who voted Remain?

Shhhhhhh........

[UpTheBeehole]

44,167 voted to remain by voting, or not voting to leave, which was the radical sea change which needed opting for.

[RingoMcCartney]

44,167 voted to remain by voting, or not voting to leave, which was the radical sea change which needed opting for.

So by not voting. People voted!



Now you know what I asked for uphisownhole is it!

You provided the figure for the leave vote as a percentage of the general population of Burnley.

Over to you for the other figure. You know, the one for the losing side. Stop the dilution!

[aggi]

Almost......

Well almost in that the vote is to not keep them, not to get rid of them. We both know that you weren't aware that this was how the elections worked when you started banging this particular drum though.

[Caballo]

44,167 voted to remain by voting, or not voting to leave, which was the radical sea change which needed opting for.

Thus far it was Ringo making himself look silly, you've just eclipsed him. The assertion that somehow not voting allied you to remain reads like something straight if the EU's 'how to get the right result' handbook.

[UpTheBeehole]

If you had 46,500,001 people (ie the number of registered voters at the referendum) and said 'put your hand up if we should all jump off that cliff' and 17,410,742 people put their hand up, you don't all go and jump off the cliff.

That's only what 37% of you want to do.

[nil_desperandum]

You don't discuss politics, yet you know the political persuasions of the majority of them. Then given that 66% of Burnley voters chose to Leave, then it's fair to say that they're unrepresentative of the general voting population then.

Bloody hell this is like pulling teeth. Ok forget the Turf and seats and how long youve had a ST. But surely if you walked down a random street in Burnley. Given that 66% (I think) of Burnleyites voted to Leave. Then 2 out of every 3 would agree with me? Or are you going to try and use statistics to try and go against common sense?

Next you'll be saying , "I know that two thirds of Burnley folk voted Leave. But the majority agree with my viewpoint"

It's a stupid and pointless argument, but you started it, so - hopefully - to conclude it.
You said that those who sit around me would agree with you.
You haven't a clue where I sit, or who with
I am taking it that you mean those to whom I can hold a conversation, - to the sides, in front and behind.
I know who they all are - none of us have swapped seats for years.
Approx.50% would be from the Burnley constituency. So the other 50% aren't.
We go to the match to watch the game, but it doesn't mean that I don't know their broad political views or their EU stance.

It may well be that in the area that I sit the sample is not representative of the Burnley result, (fair enough), but that's not relevant to the assertion that you initially made. You didn't refer to walking down "a random street". You said that I only had to turn to those that sit by me at the next home game and they would agree with you. They wouldn't.

[Lancasterclaret]

Worth mentioning again, but hard brexit means nothing to do with the EU.

Hard remain means what we have now. Nothing more, nothing less. Nobody want Euro membership or a European state (at least, not in enough numbers to matter)

Anything inbetween that is a compromise position and more importantly, one wanted by the majority of the country.

Dsr, ringo etc can argue "leave means leave" till the cows come home, but it won't change that and I'm still baffled by those MPs who think their personal love of Brexit will save them in an election.

Boris Johnson in Uxbridge in particular would be panicking a bit I'd have thought.

[UpTheBeehole]

[RingoMcCartney]

It's a stupid and pointless argument, but you started it, so - hopefully - to conclude it.
You said that those who sit around me would agree with you.
You haven't a clue where I sit, or who with
I am taking it that you mean those to whom I can hold a conversation, - to the sides, in front and behind.
I know who they all are - none of us have swapped seats for years.
Approx.50% would be from the Burnley constituency. So the other 50% aren't.
We go to the match to watch the game, but it doesn't mean that I don't know their broad political views or their EU stance.

It may well be that in the area that I sit the sample is not representative of the Burnley result, (fair enough), but that's not relevant to the assertion that you initially made. You didn't refer to walking down "a random street". You said that I only had to turn to those that sit by me at the next home game and they would agree with you. They wouldn't.

Jesus wept! I only used the Turf as it was common ground (pardon the pun!) and didn't expect a forensic analysis of those around you. I innocently assumed you agree with me that those attending the Turf generally represented the town as a whole. And cos of that and the way the town voted in the referendum, you'd admit that as the majority of the town voted Leave, then the majority would agree with me.

Let me make it as straight forward as possible. Given the way that Burnley voted. Would the majority of Burnleyites agree with my view or yours?

(You can leave the seating arrangements and the origins of the town's of people around you, and details of any conversations you may or may not have had, out of your answer)

[dsr]

44,167 voted to remain by voting, or not voting to leave, which was the radical sea change which needed opting for.

The baby born the day before the referendum should be counted as a Remain vote because it didn't choose to vote leave? You're discrediting your own side, beehole.

[UpTheBeehole]

J

Let me make it as straight forward as possible. Given the way that Burnley voted. Would the majority of Burnleyites agree with my view or yours?

As I've shown, a minority of residents in Burnley voted for Brexit.

[RingoMcCartney]

Now you know what I asked for uphisownhole.

You provided the figure for the leave vote as a percentage of the general population of Burnley.

Over to you for the other figure. You know, the one for the losing side. It took you seconds for the leave vote as a percentage of the general population of Burnley.

Things not running smooth in the Turtle Bunker this afternoon?