ARTICLE: Clubs should hang their heads in shame over derby tickets

[Corky]

If this had been a political thread the Mods would have locked it after two pages. And having ploughed through 6 pages of largely abject drivel I think that would be a good idea now.

The club were put in an invidious position by those fools down the road and whatever choice was made were, clearly, never going to keep everybody happy. This has certainly polarised views and perhaps some good will come out of it if the Supporters Groups and our Club get together to look into a better way forward if such is ever needed again.

[bfcjg]

I missed out,gutted just one of our group got a ticket, he said it won't be same without his mates. On the positive side I've done every bstards game available for the last 50 years, if someone who maybe hasn't been before manages to get a ticket by whatever means and experiences the unique atmosphere then good luck to them.

[arise_sir_charge]

No it isn’t always an option. If I want to buy something that cost £200 but only have £50 then buying it is not an option. It’s not a choice I’m making, it’s nothing to do with choices or sacrifices, it’s that I don’t have the money. I struggling to understand why people can’t grasp that plain and simple fact.

Come on Martin of course it’s an option, don’t put fuel in the Jag or maybe use last seasons skiing kit again rather than buy new……it’s always an option.

Must admit, I don’t think a post referencing the BA Gold club is the best placed post ever on a Burnley forum.

Just think, he did have an option to post what he did and he chose to.

[arise_sir_charge]

Once again, there are options, they may not be palatable. You could sell something else, you could get a 2nd job. It’s very rare there are no options.

I do understand the frustration of an organisation introducing a tiered loyalty system, based on what they define as loyalty, then removing it at a time of high demand. Either scrap it totally, make it a free for all, or abide by it.

Jesus wept.

Sell a kidney, it’s always an option.

[Nori1958]

If this had been a political thread the Mods would have locked it after two pages. And having ploughed through 6 pages of largely abject drivel I think that would be a good idea now.

The club were put in an invidious position by those fools down the road and whatever choice was made were, clearly, never going to keep everybody happy. This has certainly polarised views and perhaps some good will come out of it if the Supporters Groups and our Club get together to look into a better way forward if such is ever needed again.

The trouble with that is that the supporters groups tend to comprise of those with lots of points. Turkey's and Christmas comes to mind.

[Foshiznik]

If this had been a political thread the Mods would have locked it after two pages. And having ploughed through 6 pages of largely abject drivel I think that would be a good idea now.

The club were put in an invidious position by those fools down the road and whatever choice was made were, clearly, never going to keep everybody happy. This has certainly polarised views and perhaps some good will come out of it if the Supporters Groups and our Club get together to look into a better way forward if such is ever needed again.

Why lock a thread where debate and discussions are so polarised? Isn't that a good thing for a forum? Seems strange to shut down threads for any other reason than it turning into an abusive cesspit or creating potential legal issues.

[claretspice]

Personal view - this is primarily Blackburn's fault and their decision essentially forced Burnley to make the least worst option.

Not sure Burnley managed that though. I take the point about older folk naturally accumulating more loyalty points but in these days of purchase histories there was an easy option for this game, coming as it does at the end of the season - require 6k points and 10 purchases this season in the first instance, to reward those who have gone away all season. They deserve to be first. Not those who went 10 seasons ago.

As for the IT stuff, it's pretty atrocious and the experience of botches like this ought to prompt the club to sort it out once and for all.

[martin_p]

Once again, there are options, they may not be palatable. You could sell something else, you could get a 2nd job. It’s very rare there are no options.

I do understand the frustration of an organisation introducing a tiered loyalty system, based on what they define as loyalty, then removing it at a time of high demand. Either scrap it totally, make it a free for all, or abide by it.

You could get a 2nd job? You’re sounding like a Tory politician now!

[dandeclaret]

Jesus wept.

Sell a kidney, it’s always an option.

Don't stop at a kidney in your quest for finding the most outlandish option to show your incredulity that tiered loyalty systems reward the behaviour that they deem valuable.

Not qualifying for the top tier of loyalty is also an option. But look, no single metric to define something as intangible as loyalty is ever going to be perfect. The club, not the fans, the club set this metric as their measure. They set the rules of the game. They said they may change the number of points needed to qualify. They then changed that whole approach to it at the most emotionally charged time.... and you're surprised that people are reacting emotionally to that.

[Longsidelenny1882]

No ticket for me not happy at all on a plus side just won two tickets for gala bingo any night in April every cloud and all that utc

[Tall Paul]

Has the club ever set the points requirement for tickets at over 6000?

[Bordeauxclaret]

They then changed that whole approach to it at the most emotionally charged time.... and you're surprised that people are reacting emotionally to that.

I’m surprised the article wasn’t published when the approach was changed rather than when the result was known.

[arise_sir_charge]

Don't stop at a kidney in your quest for finding the most outlandish option to show your incredulity that tiered loyalty systems reward the behaviour that they deem valuable.

Not qualifying for the top tier of loyalty is also an option. But look, no single metric to define something as intangible as loyalty is ever going to be perfect. The club, not the fans, the club set this metric as their measure. They set the rules of the game. They said they may change the number of points needed to qualify. They then changed that whole approach to it at the most emotionally charged time.... and you're surprised that people are reacting emotionally to that.

See, this is the thing.

The club said they ‘may change the number of points’…..they chose not to.

They haven’t changed the approach, it’s been 6,000 points for all games. What they have done is try and make it fair to all those people that have 6,000 points by entering them into a ballot.

If anything the club have been consistent in how they apply the rules.

The nearest example this season was Luton, they did that on a first come first served basis which favoured those that have direct computer access at 10am on a particular day. A ballot of the ‘loyal’ supporters is much fairer than that scenario. Perhaps they learned from that mistake?

Would those missing out feel better if they’d have been in a straight race for tickets and missed out. I doubt it as it’s the same end result.

As I say, this is as fair as I think it could have been and should see a good cross section of our support making up the 2,000 attendees.

[martin_p]

Has the club ever set the points requirement for tickets at over 6000?

No, and what’s more the info on the official site only says you can ‘apply’ for tickets if you have the announced number of points, no where does it say ‘buy’.

[dandeclaret]

I’m surprised the article wasn’t published when the approach was changed rather than when the result was known.

I agree, if there were 2 versions wrote, then take the result out and publish it. The motivation behind it remains the same.

[JohnMac]

The demograph of fans at Blackpool showed how flawed the 'Loyalty Points' system is when kids with no chance whatsoever of having the minimum points requirement were present.

Mountains and Molehills spring to mind over this latest ballot and it will be interesting to see (on TV) how many people are there once again who cannot have accrued enough points.

[Rick_Muller]

Personal view - this is primarily Blackburn's fault and their decision essentially forced Burnley to make the least worst option.

Not sure Burnley managed that though. I take the point about older folk naturally accumulating more loyalty points but in these days of purchase histories there was an easy option for this game, coming as it does at the end of the season - require 6k points and 10 purchases this season in the first instance, to reward those who have gone away all season. They deserve to be first. Not those who went 10 seasons ago.

As for the IT stuff, it's pretty atrocious and the experience of botches like this ought to prompt the club to sort it out once and for all.

Hindsight though... normally it would not have been an issue and dont forget it was reschedule from 18th March. Historically we have been offered 4k+ and even more, and they have offered 7k to other clubs have they not? How can our club predict that they would only offer 2k tickets? They couldn't and didn't hence the approach taken.

Perhaps the loyalty scheme does need a rethink for these types of occurrences, perhaps not. I would suggest now isn't the time to rethink it though as there are far too many emotions running through the fan base for it to be a productive and effective process right now.

[Granny WeatherWax]

No, and what’s more the info on the official site only says you can ‘apply’ for tickets if you have the announced number of points, no where does it say ‘buy’.

Yes they have, Aberdeen away.

[Spijed]

Hindsight though... normally it would not have been an issue and dont forget it was reschedule from 18th March. Historically we have been offered 4k+ and even more, and they have offered 7k to other clubs have they not? How can our club predict that they would only offer 2k tickets? They couldn't and didn't hence the approach taken.

Perhaps the loyalty scheme does need a rethink for these types of occurrences, perhaps not. I would suggest now isn't the time to rethink it though as there are far too many emotions running through the fan base for it to be a productive and effective process right now.

I think the 2k figure is a bit irrelevant as Luton gave us less tickets and there were similar problems getting tickets for that match.

All Premier league clubs are obliged to offer us no more than 3000 tickets and we will face the same issues (like we have done in recent seasons).

It's not the limited number that Blackburn have given us, but the fact that in a number of games that demand far outstrips supply, and the problem is how do you solve it in a way that satisfies the majority?

[dandeclaret]

See, this is the thing.

The club said they ‘may change the number of points’…..they chose not to.

They haven’t changed the approach, it’s been 6,000 points for all games. What they have done is try and make it fair to all those people that have 6,000 points by entering them into a ballot.

If anything the club have been consistent in how they apply the rules.

The nearest example this season was Luton, they did that on a first come first served basis which favoured those that have direct computer access at 10am on a particular day. A ballot of the ‘loyal’ supporters is much fairer than that scenario. Perhaps they learned from that mistake?

Would those missing out feel better if they’d have been in a straight race for tickets and missed out. I doubt it as it’s the same end result.

As I say, this is as fair as I think it could have been and should see a good cross section of our support making up the 2,000 attendees.

I suspect that in line with what many clubs appear to do, they'd expect the scale to be slid to reflect the clubs defined measure of loyalty. Don't most clubs slide the scale to reflect the likely barrier where the most loyal customers get tickets (Eg, if offered 2,000 tickets, and normally 80% of people in the loyalty system take them up, then run a process for the top 2,500 customers in your database). I totally get all of the arguments about this becoming a self fulfilling cycle, and the unfairness / inefficiency of attracting new fans in this, but that is the measure the club has set, and indicated that they may use where there are ticketing opportunities where friction is caused.

I think there's 3 learnings from this.

1) And by far... Blackburn are softer, bigger shysters that we ever thought, and appear a pretty weak set of leaders - from the board, through the manager, to the fans who created a whole myriad of reasons why Burnley fans shouldn't go.

2) The loyalty system needs to be reviewed, and clarity on how it will be used communicated to fans (to point out the absurdity of it, I haven't had a season ticket for 10 years, but still have way over the requisite points for this - if I decided to renew at some point in the future, I'd go back into that top tier - I am not a loyal fan, I don't go to any where near enough games to wear that badge)

3) When you have a system in place to reward the fans you've identified as your top tier fans, then don't throw that system in the bin at the exact time it's supposed to be used to differentiate. It will cause dissatisfaction amongst your most loyal customers - edit - as defined by your metrics.

[PremierLeagueClass]

Absolutely spot on there Dande.

[JohnMac]

'It’s amazing how the people kicking up the biggest fuss are those that were fortunate enough to be in the ballot in the first place.

Nail on head, right there!

[martin_p]

I suspect that in line with what many clubs appear to do, they'd expect the scale to be slid to reflect the clubs defined measure of loyalty. Don't most clubs slide the scale to reflect the likely barrier where the most loyal customers get tickets (Eg, if offered 2,000 tickets, and normally 80% of people in the loyalty system take them up, then run a process for the top 2,500 customers in your database). I totally get all of the arguments about this becoming a self fulfilling cycle, and the unfairness / inefficiency of attracting new fans in this, but that is the measure the club has set, and indicated that they may use where there are ticketing opportunities where friction is caused.

I think there's 3 learnings from this.

1) And by far... Blackburn are softer, bigger shysters that we ever thought, and appear a pretty weak set of leaders - from the board, through the manager, to the fans who created a whole myriad of reasons why Burnley fans shouldn't go.

2) The loyalty system needs to be reviewed, and clarity on how it will be used communicated to fans (to point out the absurdity of it, I haven't had a season ticket for 10 years, but still have way over the requisite points for this - if I decided to renew at some point in the future, I'd go back into that top tier - I am not a loyal fan, I don't go to any where near enough games to wear that badge)

3) When you have a system in place to reward the fans you've identified as your top tier fans, then don't throw that system in the bin at the exact time it's supposed to be used to differentiate. It will cause dissatisfaction amongst your most loyal customers - edit - as defined by your metrics.

Agree with 1 and 2, but for 3, they haven’t thrown the system in the bin. They’ve still used loyalty points to differentiate as they said they would, it’s just the application process that has changed and the club has made no commitment that the application process be the same for every game.

[AGENT_CLARET]

This is my favourite subject post EVER, we should bring it back every year on its anniversary

[Rick_Muller]

I think there's 3 learnings from this.

1) And by far... Blackburn are softer, bigger shysters that we ever thought, and appear a pretty weak set of leaders - from the board, through the manager, to the fans who created a whole myriad of reasons why Burnley fans shouldn't go.
Agreed

2) The loyalty system needs to be reviewed, and clarity on how it will be used communicated to fans (to point out the absurdity of it, I haven't had a season ticket for 10 years, but still have way over the requisite points for this - if I decided to renew at some point in the future, I'd go back into that top tier - I am not a loyal fan, I don't go to any where near enough games to wear that badge)
Also Agreed

3) When you have a system in place to reward the fans you've identified as your top tier fans, then don't throw that system in the bin at the exact time it's supposed to be used to differentiate. It will cause dissatisfaction amongst your most loyal customers - edit - as defined by your metrics.

They didn't throw it in the bin though, they did use 6k points from the loyalty scheme, only it was alongside a ballot because of the demand. They were criticised regarding tickets for the Luton game (~900 tickets) where it was 6k points and you had to be lucky to be able to log on at 10am and buy one. After the pettiness of Rovers our club were on a hiding to nothing with whatever they did.

As I've said above, redesigning the loyalty scheme right now would not result in an effective system as there are far too many emotions involved right now. I personally would like to see a form of ID checking for away tickets, whereby the ticket is purchased for a specific claret number and actually used by that person - I mentioned before that the Luton game had groups of fans without season tickets getting in the away end because they had mates getting them tickets - that's not acceptable. But like I said, now is not the time for a redesign.

[Shaun1983]

This is my favourite subject post EVER, we should bring it back every year on its anniversary

I would go as far as to say it's the best thing I've ever read

[AGENT_CLARET]

I would go as far as to say it's the best thing I've ever read

[ŽižkovClaret]

I wonder do the club even know how many fans have over 6k points? Surely they should have opened it up from say 12k and then down in steps of 1k until the tickets were gone.

Of course then you'd have had people complaining that they had to wait til 10k as their mate only had that many, but that would have been more rewarding of loyalty, if not necessarily "fairer" from a wider perspective.

I don't think the club could have been fair to the wider fan base while still rewarding the long term loyal supporters

[claretspice]

Hindsight though... normally it would not have been an issue and dont forget it was reschedule from 18th March. Historically we have been offered 4k+ and even more, and they have offered 7k to other clubs have they not? How can our club predict that they would only offer 2k tickets? They couldn't and didn't hence the approach taken.

Perhaps the loyalty scheme does need a rethink for these types of occurrences, perhaps not. I would suggest now isn't the time to rethink it though as there are far too many emotions running through the fan base for it to be a productive and effective process right now.

It's not hindsight at all. When they knew what Blackburn were offering for the rearranged game, they had to set their strategy. They could easily have focused it on those who have bought tickets routinely this season. The online purchase history and friends and family link facilitates that.

Of course it's not perfect and someone would complain regardless but it cuts through all the talk about the imperfections of the loyalty points system.

[martin_p]

It's not hindsight at all. When they knew what Blackburn were offering for the rearranged game, they had to set their strategy. They could easily have focused it on those who have bought tickets routinely this season. The online purchase history and friends and family link facilitates that.

Of course it's not perfect and someone would complain regardless but it cuts through all the talk about the imperfections of the loyalty points system.

They did set their strategy.

[claretspice]

They did set their strategy.

Yes. My point is that I think there were easily applicable better options than the approach they took, as a short term fix to the issue at hand.

The need to sort the IT and the long term approach to a clearly broken loyalty points system is a separate long term point but the neglect of it for a while has obviously come home to roost here.

It's only a football match. But it seems to me the club have not played the cards they were dealt especially well.

[alwaysaclaret]

A minority of grown men acting like spoilt kids. Ironic when they want a system that prevents kids getting tickets for away games.

Several issues here, whilst it appears that some people want a system that prevents the future of the club getting tickets for away games which can't be right, there's also the principle that up to a certain age it's impossible to have the required 6000 points which makes a mockery of the current system especially when some games have sold out before getting down to the 4000 point mark, but yet there are kids as young as 7,8 and 9 there at the game, so clearly the system doesn't work at the first hurdle, that's before we even get to a ballot system, and there's a fair chance it will happen at deadwood this time. At the end of the day, this goes on and on, there is no fair system, everyone who doesn't get one will have their own argument why they should have. Simple as this, you either get or you don't get.

[aggi]

I suspect that in line with what many clubs appear to do, they'd expect the scale to be slid to reflect the clubs defined measure of loyalty. Don't most clubs slide the scale to reflect the likely barrier where the most loyal customers get tickets (Eg, if offered 2,000 tickets, and normally 80% of people in the loyalty system take them up, then run a process for the top 2,500 customers in your database). I totally get all of the arguments about this becoming a self fulfilling cycle, and the unfairness / inefficiency of attracting new fans in this, but that is the measure the club has set, and indicated that they may use where there are ticketing opportunities where friction is caused.

I think there's 3 learnings from this.

1) And by far... Blackburn are softer, bigger shysters that we ever thought, and appear a pretty weak set of leaders - from the board, through the manager, to the fans who created a whole myriad of reasons why Burnley fans shouldn't go.

2) The loyalty system needs to be reviewed, and clarity on how it will be used communicated to fans (to point out the absurdity of it, I haven't had a season ticket for 10 years, but still have way over the requisite points for this - if I decided to renew at some point in the future, I'd go back into that top tier - I am not a loyal fan, I don't go to any where near enough games to wear that badge)

3) When you have a system in place to reward the fans you've identified as your top tier fans, then don't throw that system in the bin at the exact time it's supposed to be used to differentiate. It will cause dissatisfaction amongst your most loyal customers - edit - as defined by your metrics.

Most clubs tend to have points that expire so that top threshold stays pretty static (albeit with different people in it as those who attend regularly now overtake those who attended regularly a few years ago).

Of course, up until very recently, a lot of people didn't think that there was an issue with this and of course a match from 10 years ago should be valued the same as a match this season ...

[quoonbeatz]

There is a fair system. Current season ticket holders priority, then general sale.

[Goody1975]

There is a fair system. Current season ticket holders priority, then general sale.

So that's the vast majority of supporters all having priority.

How do they sell them? All go on sale at a certain time? Through a ballot?

If things are being changed it should be at the beginning of the season not part way through.

[dandeclaret]

Most clubs tend to have points that expire so that top threshold stays pretty static (albeit with different people in it as those who attend regularly now overtake those who attended regularly a few years ago).

Of course, up until very recently, a lot of people didn't think that there was an issue with this and of course a match from 10 years ago should be valued the same as a match this season ...

Yep - I struggle to think of any tiered loyalty system in any industry where points don't expire, and you slide back through the tiers. My own situation being a case in point. There's no way that the spending of a few quid on a season ticket should put me back in the top bracket. I should be on a handful of points now at best. If they wanted to be uber commerical about it, then all club purchases should count towards your loyalty - Clarets Player, Club Shop, Food and Drinks in the ground etc..... maybe the new tech director is being brought in to see an upgrade to systems that allow for that.

[martin_p]

So that's the vast majority of supporters all having priority.

How do they sell them? All go on sale at a certain time? Through a ballot?

If things are being changed it should be at the beginning of the season not part way through.

I think if they can sort the IT to support it properly then ballots are the way forward. There should be some criteria for entry into the ballot whether that be just all season ticket holders or a rolling period of loyalty points, but we can’t persist with a system that measures loyalty over such a long period of time.

[OffTheBar]

There is a fair system. Current season ticket holders priority, then general sale.

Yes this with a ballot for those expected to be in heavy demand would be the way to go.

[Goody1975]

Yep - I struggle to think of any tiered loyalty system in any industry where points don't expire, and you slide back through the tiers. My own situation being a case in point. There's no way that the spending of a few quid on a season ticket should put me back in the top bracket. I should be on a handful of points now at best. If they wanted to be uber commerical about it, then all club purchases should count towards your loyalty - Clarets Player, Club Shop, Food and Drinks in the ground etc..... maybe the new tech director is being brought in to see an upgrade to systems that allow for that.

I understand the ongoing discussion regarding lapsed loyalty points and there are arguments either way.

BUT, the talk of the more you spend the more you are valued as a fan is a dangerous one, this is exactly why we as fans have begun to despise modern football. Having to pay extra to have priority for 'big match tickets' is one way of rinsing the supporter of more money.

Does the cost of your season ticket count towards these 'points', so someone in the centre of the north stand upper get more 'club points' than someone in the JML? I just don't like it.

I said earlier on one of these threads, just because someone travelled the length of the country following their club before they got a family, a demanding job and a mortgage does not diminish it's value as it was ten or more years ago, they served their apprenticeship, just like many of the younger supporters are doing now.

[Ric_C]

Not sure why the club are getting it in the neck when Rovers have created this ridiculous situation.

What this sorry tale has done is cement my utter distain for them as a club.

Cowards

[FCBurnley]

Blackburn are a nasty vindictive jealous club and always have been. I have queued for hours around Turf Moor to get tickets for special games. My Mother queued for hours to get my Dad a 1947 cup final ticket and she was heavily pregnant with me at the time. First come first served is not such a bad thing with ST holders having a priority. Why should supporters be punished for not attending away games. Not everybody has the time or the money to travel
So it’s time CT grew a pair and realized he is no better or worse than any other Clarets fan. Watch it on tv like the rest of us UTC

[quoonbeatz]

So that's the vast majority of supporters all having priority.

How do they sell them? All go on sale at a certain time? Through a ballot?

If things are being changed it should be at the beginning of the season not part way through.

They sell them as normal, put them on sale at a certain time, ideally a weekend when less people are working.

Yes it isn't perfect but it's the most inclusive and fairest way of selling tickets for the majority of fans, whilst still giving some priority to those who have showed loyalty (committed to supporting in advance of that season).

Every other way disenfranchises a decent chunk of our support. This way miminises it.

[helmclaret]

So we’ve got ClaretTony (Boris Johnson) writing two articles depending on the outcome of the ballot and Dandeclaret (Jake Berry) telling people they could get a second job…

[ŽižkovClaret]

Anyone too young to have earned the requisite 6k points should be refused entry

[CaptainKirk]

Haven't got time to read the whole thread so need to ask: Can we pay on the gate?

[Here's-Johnny]

Blackburn are a nasty vindictive jealous club and always have been. I have queued for hours around Turf Moor to get tickets for special games. My Mother queued for hours to get my Dad a 1947 cup final ticket and she was heavily pregnant with me at the time. First come first served is not such a bad thing with ST holders having a priority. Why should supporters be punished for not attending away games. Not everybody has the time or the money to travel
So it’s time CT grew a pair and realized he is no better or worse than any other Clarets fan. Watch it on tv like the rest of us UTC

Part of the Excitement and trepidation queuing up for a ticket nothing was guaranteed.

[roperclaret]

Anyone too young to have earned the requisite 6k points should be refused entry

These ‘youngsters’ are the future of the club. more important they keep going than us old gits

[ŽižkovClaret]

These ‘youngsters’ are the future of the club. more important they keep going than us old gits

They can look forward to many big games for decades to come

[Nori1958]

Anyone too young to have earned the requisite 6k points should be refused entry

Who's going to refuse them entry.....it was a restriction put on the sale of tickets by Burnley, not Blackburn, the ground you are gaining access to

[wilks_bfc]

The important question that I’ve not seen anybody ask or answer yet is did the loyalest of them all, Dave Burnley, get a ticket?