“A blatant power grab” – Fans criticise own clubs on UCL plans

[Chester Perry]

So club President of real Madrid has made a statement on Spanish TV

"Audiences are decreasing and rights are decreasing and something had to be done. We are all ruined. Television has to change so we can adapt."

It seems extremely simple to me they are unable to live within their means despite income going up and up they find ways to ruin themselves - how long before they can't fund it with all the new money? Have to laugh at "we are all ruined".

not for the first time I refer everyone to post six on this thread

[Woonderbah]

They may as well rip out most of the seats at these 'big six' grounds and fill them in with corporate boxes.. what average Joe fan can afford to watch his team play in this new league.. personally I'd kick them out of all domestic competitions straight away. Yes it will be carnage but the Premier League can rebuild and reinvent itself to resemble the football we know and love. Sensible ticket pricing with clubs paying sensible wages and a more competitive league.

[elwaclaret]

So what happens when the same gaps develop in the Super League structure.... they end up like the Globetrotters. Europe may be exciting for the odd game but who is going to tip up to be swanning off to Europe every few weeks as climate taxes double flight costs? They end up with screens displaying fans sat all over the world... that will make for great atmosphere. I cannot think of much that would make me interested in even looking up scores... It will be like watching snooker, great if you like it, but NOT football.

[gandhisflipflop]

So club President of real Madrid has made a statement on Spanish TV

"Audiences are decreasing and rights are decreasing and something had to be done. We are all ruined. Television has to change so we can adapt."

It seems extremely simple to me they are unable to live within their means despite income going up and up they find ways to ruin themselves - how long before they can't fund it with all the new money? Have to laugh at "we are all ruined".

The agents will have a field day imagine how many million a week Mino Riaola will want now for his players.

They are so out of touch it is unreal. Have they ever stopped to think why they are decreasing? Obviously they have but their conclusion is the complete polar opposite of the fix for this. Audiences are decreasing because they are becoming increasingly fed up and dissolution at the rising cost of football, players feigning injury at every turn, alienated from the real world with their ridiculous wages. They are dissolution at extortionate transfer fees reducing competition. They are fed up of money grabbing agents in the game and to top it all they hate the introduction of VAR. The current bodies have been doing the exact opposite of what they should have been doing by expanding both club and international competitions which has diluted the achievement of qualification and all in all they have taken a very good product and ruined it through power, corruption and greed and a lot of those people are not wanting to take this to a new level and have the audacity to think they aren't the problem?! UEFA and FIFA are just as bad for allowing this beast to grow out of control by constantly changing and amending the rules to appease these arrogant bastards. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

[NewClaret]

Chester, there’s a graphic on the BBC that suggests Barca and Reals net debt is a lot lower than I thought.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56810962

Is that because it’s the June 20 accounts or are their debts lower than I thought? Or massive cash reserves offsetting the debt?

[Chester Perry]

They are so out of touch it is unreal. Have they ever stopped to think why they are decreasing? Obviously they have but their conclusion is the complete polar opposite of the fix for this. Audiences are decreasing because they are becoming increasingly fed up and dissolution at the rising cost of football, players feigning injury at every turn, alienated from the real world with their ridiculous wages. They are dissolution at extortionate transfer fees reducing competition. They are fed up of money grabbing agents in the game and to top it all they hate the introduction of VAR. The current bodies have been doing the exact opposite of what they should have been doing by expanding both club and international competitions which has diluted the achievement of qualification and all in all they have taken a very good product and ruined it through power, corruption and greed and a lot of those people are not wanting to take this to a new level and have the audacity to think they aren't the problem?! UEFA and FIFA are just as bad for allowing this beast to grow out of control by constantly changing and amending the rules to appease these arrogant bastards. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

If you actually read the research which has been freely shared none of this is mentioned - I still cannot understand how even the press have completly missed this - ECA publish the research on Thursday, Super League announced on Sunday

[Dy1geo]

Do they have to play their home games at their own grounds, like the NFL could we see Liverpool v Man Utd in Boston USA, Real Madrid v Inter in Mexico City

[martin_p]

They don't care whether you unsubscribe - it isn't aimed at you. They will happily alienate the whole of the UK for a slice of the much bigger pie in other parts of the world. They also don't care that their own fans won't be able to go to games. Tourists spend more money. And they don't care about what effect their move will have on pretty much every other team left behind in domestic leagues who will all lose some level of TV revenue and have to pick up the pieces.

Whether they go through with it or it's being dome for leverage, it's disgusting.

And if the fans aren't turning up in Manchester and Liverpool they'll move the clubs to the fans. If they've been turfed out of the Premier League the there'll be nothing to keep Manchester United in Manchester and the move to the american style franchise model will be complete.

[Chester Perry]

Chester, there’s a graphic on the BBC that suggests Barca and Reals net debt is a lot lower than I thought.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56810962

Is that because it’s the June 20 accounts or are their debts lower than I thought? Or massive cash reserves offsetting the debt?

net debt is the result of gross debt offset by cash in hand and creditors. Both the Spanish giants have large salary payments every six months - players tend to get only 20%-30% of they wages monthly and lump sums for the rest every six months, naturally this is timed to fall after major TV and sponsor payments, so for a while the accounts are cash rich. Both clubs have long been known to declare their accounts at the cash rich moments. The money disappears within a week or so.

There has also been additional borrowings taken out since the accounts were published

[Chester Perry]

Do they have to play their home games at their own grounds, like the NFL could we see Liverpool v Man Utd in Boston USA, Real Madrid v Inter in Mexico City

Those kinds of rules have not been published, but you have to assume it is part of the business model to have a number of overseas games

[Vegas Claret]

whatever happens they should all be demoted to the 5th level

[gandhisflipflop]

From Sky Sports site

'ESL PLANS COULD BE SIDELINED

However, crucially, the official suggested that the ESL’s plans could be sidelined if fundamental changes to the present Champions League structure were agreed with UEFA and the 12 founding ESL clubs.

“Is it possible for there to be agreement without the implementation of the ESL? Yes I believe so.

“But none of those changes have been close to forthcoming after years of discussion, so there would need to be significant compromise.

“Of course it’s about money. No one is denying that. If we don’t grow our business we are not doing our jobs properly.

“UEFA as a governing body are not listening to the clubs and are monopolising competitive football.

“The reality is the Champions’ League is not a commercial success.

“Clubs have no say over the infrastructure and governance of the competition.

“There are ways we could change that, but UEFA simply refuse to relinquish any control.

“We’re being stopped from developing our clubs. Being constantly held back has become too frustrating hence where we find ourselves today.”

“These frustrations can be traced back 15 or 20 years.”'


Why should UEFA relinquish control to these clubs? They are the governing body and no club should hold more power than any other club within this.

[elwaclaret]

And if the fans aren't turning up in Manchester and Liverpool they'll move the clubs to the fans. If they've been turfed out of the Premier League the there'll be nothing to keep Manchester United in Manchester and the move to the american style franchise model will be complete.

When we get there that would be ideal, Salford take over Old Trafford and rename themselves Real Manchester United... Real Gorton... Tottington Hotspurs, Arsenal have sold their souls several times already... they could go back South of the river and return to Woolwich Arsenal... Stamford Bridge is in Fulham... so nice upgrade for them and Tottenham can be replaced as North London’s only club... The North London Invaders (yes... the that’s Madness’s original name) and we can all forget about the foreign carnival of football.

[Chester Perry]

From Sky Sports site

'ESL PLANS COULD BE SIDELINED

However, crucially, the official suggested that the ESL’s plans could be sidelined if fundamental changes to the present Champions League structure were agreed with UEFA and the 12 founding ESL clubs.

“Is it possible for there to be agreement without the implementation of the ESL? Yes I believe so.

“But none of those changes have been close to forthcoming after years of discussion, so there would need to be significant compromise.

“Of course it’s about money. No one is denying that. If we don’t grow our business we are not doing our jobs properly.

“UEFA as a governing body are not listening to the clubs and are monopolising competitive football.

“The reality is the Champions’ League is not a commercial success.

“Clubs have no say over the infrastructure and governance of the competition.

“There are ways we could change that, but UEFA simply refuse to relinquish any control.

“We’re being stopped from developing our clubs. Being constantly held back has become too frustrating hence where we find ourselves today.”

“These frustrations can be traced back 15 or 20 years.”'


Why should UEFA relinquish control to these clubs? They are the governing body and no club should hold more power than any other club within this.

I read that and thought of this I posted a short while ago on the MMT thread

@SwissRamble looks at the earnings from this years Champions League so far.

It is this level of revenue that has caused much of footballs recent problems, regular participation becomes a virtuous circle, particularly in the form of coefficient payments - it has underlined a sense of entitlement that now manifests as Super League

https://twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/ ... 7883463686

[Firthy]

Whatever happens now whether or not it's the ESL or a modified Champions League, the Premier League will be devalued just like the FA Cup has been. The bigger teams will concentrate their efforts on the ESL or Champions League and play weakened teams in the Premier League just like Premier League teams do now in the FA Cup. I really can't see anything positive coming from this unless these elite teams are kicked out of the Premier League which will make it a more even playing field for those left.

[Elizabeth]

Away from the heavy stuff. Has anyone else heard we will be declared Premier League champions for the season 2017-18 when the ‘Big 6’have their records expunged ?

[Chester Perry]

Whatever happens now whether or not it's the ESL or a modified Champions League, the Premier League will be devalued just like the FA Cup has been. The bigger teams will concentrate their efforts on the ESL or Champions League and play weakened teams in the Premier League just like Premier League teams do now in the FA Cup. I really can't see anything positive coming from this unless these elite teams are kicked out of the Premier League which will make it a more even playing field for those left.

If it is the champions League the clubs still have to qualify, that in itself will lead to a mighty scramble (even with coefficient qualification places in play) it still creates a sense of jeopardy.

Of course UEFA may totally crumble and give these clubs what they demanded last year - 24 permanent places in the Champions League for eternity and control of the economic rights, if that happens then yes the domestic leagues are devalued permanently

[Chester Perry]

Away from the heavy stuff. Has anyone else heard we will be declared Premier League champions for the season 2017-18 when the ‘Big 6’have their records expunged ?

who really wants an asterisk title?

[TsarBomba]

I’m seeing a lot of statements on social media from the ‘other 14’, condemning this ESL nonsense.

Wolves have updated their Twitter bio, poking fun that they were PL Champions when they finished 7th.

Leeds were calling Liverpool ‘Merseyside Reds’ last night.

And yet from us, the silence is deafening.

I tend not to be too critical of the club. We get a helluva lot more right than wrong. But, there really needs to be some engagement from the club to the fans, when disenchantment and disconnection with football in general is already as high as it is.

[Elizabeth]

who really wants and asterisk title?

You did see the light heartedness though didn’t you

[Chester Perry]

I’m seeing a lot of statements on social media from the ‘other 14’, condemning this ESL nonsense.

Wolves have updated their Twitter bio, poking fun that they were PL Champions when they finished 7th.

Leeds were calling Liverpool ‘Merseyside Reds’ last night.

And yet from us, the silence is deafening.

I tend not to be too critical of the club. We get a helluva lot more right than wrong. But, there really needs to be some engagement from the club to the fans, when disenchantment and disconnection with football in general is already as high as it is.

I believe the club have taken the right approach on the matter to this point

[elwaclaret]

I’m seeing a lot of statements on social media from the ‘other 14’, condemning this ESL nonsense.

Wolves have updated their Twitter bio, poking fun that they were PL Champions when they finished 7th.

Leeds were calling Liverpool ‘Merseyside Reds’ last night.

And yet from us, the silence is deafening.

I tend not to be too critical of the club. We get a helluva lot more right than wrong. But, there really needs to be some engagement from the club to the fans, when disenchantment and disconnection with football in general is already as high as it is.

I take the polar position... they are new, they cannot claim tradition for themselves, just the club. They are busy planning the clubs path... I am quite comfortable and even pleased out board have sat back instead of rushing in... they will go down to the meeting and act in accordance with the decisions made by the majority.... pity some other clubs do not have the same mentality.

[Cirrus_Minor]

They know that they do not need attending supporters as long as the tv money keeps rolling in. The pandemic restrictions have even proved that games can be played without fans. If Sky don’t want it there are many networks in the US that will be glad to take it on. There are many who will pay for this around the world.

This is probably the obvious conclusion to the billionaire owners who want to see some of their money paying off.

[Woonderbah]

I can't see how things can return to normal now this 'big six' have announced their intentions.
If my girlfriend told me she'd been asked out by a better looking younger bloke with a flash car and had considered going but then said she'd decided to stick with me for now, I know what my response would be.
It's time to show some backbone. The Premier League made this 'big six' not the other way round.

[Chester Perry]

You did see the light heartedness though didn’t you

yes

[Chester Perry]

I take the polar position... they are new, they cannot claim tradition for themselves, just the club. They are busy planning the clubs path... I am quite comfortable and even pleased out board have sat back instead of rushing in... they will go down to the meeting and act in accordance with the decisions made by the majority.... pity some other clubs do not have the same mentality.

It is good to see grown ups in still in charge at the club

[Dy1geo]

As a club, Burnley are in a real dilemma, we let the big six go and our revenues are likely to diminish, we come to a compromise that will allow them to play more European midweek games the domestic game will suffer, we let them explore making individual TV rights they get richer and the gap increases.

[elwaclaret]

They know that they do not need attending supporters as long as the tv money keeps rolling in. The pandemic restrictions have even proved that games can be played without fans. If Sky don’t want it there are many networks in the US that will be glad to take it on. There are many who will pay for this around the world.

This is probably the obvious conclusion to the billionaire owners who want to see some of their money paying off.

Mmmm.... part of the reason that they they have done this now is because without their fans appearing their debts are spiralling... yes they can replace that with cameras and tech, but most of those fans they are missing so badly will rather attend a full Stadium with less pure football and more atmosphere... because it matters... why does it matter because promotion and relegation make it matter. It will go stale incredibly quickly for even those fans in favour. The USA has always had closed shop leagues... it is why the rest of the world prefer the British game.

[SouthLondonexile]

Take yourself back to 1992 and the FA took over the top division and called it the Premier League, thereby creating a super league financed by the Satelite dish of SKY.
It created an environment which has enabled the bigger clubs to get richer. It is however the best place to be.
The crucial difference between then and now , are the elements of promotion and relegation with the exciting playoffs.
To talk about this being motivated by greedy corporations as if this has happened for the first time is to misread something that has always been there in football but in different guises.

[Top Claret]

Everton sounding off on the radio with a statement obviously critical of the proposed ESL.

This is going to be a blow for Everton and the City of Liverpool with there proposed new stadium down by the docks. Can't see Everton wanting to pump millions into this project with there shrinking revenue streams it just won't be viable

The only Cities who will gain financially from this will be Manchester. It is going to be a disaster for the rest of the Towns and Cities who have gained financially from having a Premier league football club

[Elizabeth]

Those wanting a statement from the club now have one

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Mmmm.... part of the reason that they they have done this now is because without their fans appearing their debts are spiralling... yes they can replace that with cameras and tech, but most of those fans they are missing so badly will rather attend a full Stadium with less pure football and more atmosphere... because it matters... why does it matter because promotion and relegation make it matter. It will go stale incredibly quickly for even those fans in favour. The USA has always had closed shop leagues... it is why the rest of the world prefer the British game.

The NFL's new TV deal for 10yrs is worth just north of £100 billion I think.
That dwarfs what the PL gets, so whilst many enjoy the competitiveness of English football, relegation etc, they're currently not even close to making the same money the NFL does.

[cricketfieldclarets]

Those wanting a statement from the club now have one

Has the club been wound up?

[Chester Perry]

Everton sounding off on the radio with a statement obviously critical of the proposed ESL.

This is going to be a blow for Everton and the City of Liverpool with there proposed new stadium down by the docks. Can't see Everton wanting to pump millions into this project with there shrinking revenue streams it just won't be viable

The only Cities who will gain financially from this will be Manchester. It is going to be a disaster for the rest of the Towns and Cities who have gained financially from having a Premier league football club

A club at the centre of the Premier League breakaway, that has enjoyed massive financing at different stages of it's history (The Mersey Millionaires will be a familiar refrain to those of a certain age), are once again enjoying the largesse of the 3rd most generous benefactor in English football history, though that has been incompetently managed on the whole. There whining is as much to do with missing out as a result of their fall in status as it is to do with the notion of solidarity with the people. You can see that in the comments from the fan base.

[Elizabeth]

My son has accessed it because he read it out to me

[Vegas Claret]

Pace just released a statement

[elwaclaret]

I think it is entirely possible that long term control of the national competitions being removed from the individual club chairman... to a new dispassionate ‘select committee’ overseeing the administration of football. Clubs would be license holders, needing to fall into the ‘best for all’ track or have their ‘gaming license’ altered/removed...

Chairmen past and present would only have themselves to blame, the rich for exploiting their advantage and the rest for keep trying to placate them by increasing their power at every turn... until it came to this.

[Chester Perry]

Those wanting a statement from the club now have one

https://twitter.com/BurnleyOfficial/sta ... 3238182914

[LS7]

Dear Chester Perry,
Sincere apologies on behalf of everyone for not reading all your posts on the magic money tree thread for the last 3 years.

[Chester Perry]

Has the club been wound up?

It would seem that the club still have a long way to go if they want to build interactions with supporters

[Chester Perry]

Dear Chester Perry,
Sincere apologies on behalf of everyone for not reading all your posts on the magic money tree thread for the last 3 years.

it was never an obligation, and I understand why many don't

[Firthy]

If it is the champions League the clubs still have to qualify, that in itself will lead to a mighty scramble (even with coefficient qualification places in play) it still creates a sense of jeopardy.

Of course UEFA may totally crumble and give these clubs what they demanded last year - 24 permanent places in the Champions League for eternity and control of the economic rights, if that happens then yes the domestic leagues are devalued permanently

24 permanent places will never happen as that would be no different to the ESL. Eufa can not realistically do that after what they've said about the ESL

But they can increase the number of games in the Champions League which in turn will have a detrimental effect on the Premier League.

[EricaJacko]

When we get there that would be ideal, Salford take over Old Trafford and rename themselves Real Manchester United... Real Gorton... Tottington Hotspurs, Arsenal have sold their souls several times already... they could go back South of the river and return to Woolwich Arsenal... Stamford Bridge is in Fulham... so nice upgrade for them and Tottenham can be replaced as North London’s only club... The North London Invaders (yes... the that’s Madness’s original name) and we can all forget about the foreign carnival of football.

Just use the names from Pro Evo Soccer.

[Chester Perry]

24 permanent places will never happen as that would be no different to the ESL. Eufa can not realistically do that after what they've said about the ESL

But they can increase the number of games in the Champions League which in turn will have a detrimental effect on the Premier League.

The SLco 12 have publicly declared that UEFA solution not good enough and not want the consumers want to see - they are right in that, which is why I said yesterdays ratification by UEFA was stupid and reactionary - there is no other way I see to view it, just go back to the thread OP to see that

[Dougall]

Do they have to play their home games at their own grounds, like the NFL could we see Liverpool v Man Utd in Boston USA, Real Madrid v Inter in Mexico City

If it all goes pear shaped, we might end up wayching Real Madrid v. Inter in Boston, Lincs.

[AlargeClaret]

Sky are already pumping out stories of “ mixed reaction from fans worldwide “ They know damn well the Chinese and Far East casual fans will lap this up . Soon we’ll be hearing of “ more and more fans “ cautiously “ coming over to the idea “ and many plastic type fans will be gutted at the prospect of losing these “ super clubs” IMO . It’s an absolute held to random stick up.

Just imagine the huge loss of revenue if the big 6 were out , all the Far East sponsorship will be hugely reduced as the “ product “ becomes far less desirable

[AlargeClaret]

I can only see a UEFA capitulation when they end up more or less offering them the same deal in the champs league

[martin_p]

https://twitter.com/BurnleyOfficial/sta ... 3238182914

Excellent response.

[Chester Perry]

Sky are already pumping out stories of “ mixed reaction from fans worldwide “ They know damn well the Chinese and Far East casual fans will lap this up . Soon we’ll be hearing of “ more and more fans “ cautiously “ coming over to the idea “ and many plastic type fans will be gutted at the prospect of losing these “ super clubs” IMO . It’s an absolute held to random stick up.

Just imagine the huge loss of revenue if the big 6 were out , all the Far East sponsorship will be hugely reduced as the “ product “ becomes far less desirable

It is Project Big Picture all over again just this time the clubs involved are the ones that drove the news breaking, lessons learned and currently being employed, unlike the football authorities who are still fire-fighting

[Grumps]

I’m seeing a lot of statements on social media from the ‘other 14’, condemning this ESL nonsense.

Wolves have updated their Twitter bio, poking fun that they were PL Champions when they finished 7th.

Leeds were calling Liverpool ‘Merseyside Reds’ last night.

And yet from us, the silence is deafening.

I tend not to be too critical of the club. We get a helluva lot more right than wrong. But, there really needs to be some engagement from the club to the fans, when disenchantment and disconnection with football in general is already as high as it is.

If only you'd waited 20mins