Is this true?

[AfloatinClaret]

This item popped up on my Facebook page just now from some outfit called 'The English Football Record'.

Only 27 of the more than 208,000 league matches having been played since 1888 have resulted in the bottom-of-the-table club defeating the top-of-the-table club at the latter’s home ground. And for more than 125 years, the first of those 27 matches held the record for the biggest of those wins for the visiting side. At the start of 1897, reigning champions Aston Villa, who had won 10 and drawn the remaining two of their last 12 matches, were three points clear at the top of the Division One table; despite having played no less than four matches fewer than second-placed Liverpool. And at the other end of the table, Burnley were one point adrift of Stoke (later to become Stoke City) and Sunderland. On the second day of 1897, 2nd January 1897, Aston Villa took on just Burnley at Wellington Road in front of a maximum crowd of 12,000. Despite of Aston Villa having scored in all but one of their first 17 matches of the season, Burnley goalkeeper Willie Tatham, who had conceded 30 goals in his first 14 appearances for Burnley during the 1896/97 season, managed to prevent the home favourites from scoring. At the other end of the field, David Black gave Burnley a 1-0 half-time lead, and in the second half, a goal by Billy Bowes and a second by Black secured the visitors a quite surprising 3-0 win. Despite of the loss, Aston Villa went on to clinch The Double, while Burnley remained at the bottom of the table. As a consequence, they entered the Test Matches, which eventually resulted in their ever relegation from the top flight.
Just for the record, Burnley’s record was bettered at the start of last season, the 2023/24 season. On 19th August 2023, top of the League One table Bolton Wanderers lost 4-0 at home to Wigan Athletic thanks to braces from Charlie Wyke and Stephen Humphrys. Before the match, Wigan had been bottom of the table after having eight points deducted.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that it's only occurred on only twenty-seven occasions; there must've been more times when a team had an unexpectedly good or bad opening game to the season and bottom then beat top in the second fixture?

[sandy richardson]

27 doesn't seem many, but what proportion is it of these top v bottom games?

I bet Willie Tatham was getting some stick on this site.

[helmclaret]

Willie should have been taken out of the firing line. He was a very young keeper and was instructed to play it out from the back.

[Selby Claret]

You have to consider that there doesn't necessarily have to be a fixture in any given season where top plays bottom at home due to the changing positions of teams

There may, in fact, have not been many occasions when the fixture happens - i know the article quotes 208000 matches but it doesn't actually say how many times top has played bottom at home

[Hipper]

We did it again in Division 2, 1977-78 at Bolton winning 2-1.

[Selby Claret]

Personally, I find it hard to believe that it's only occurred on only twenty-seven occasions; there must've been more times when a team had an unexpectedly good or bad opening game to the season and bottom then beat top in the second fixture?

There's no way a team that's bottom after one game would play the team that's top in their second game because, statistically, the reason they are bottom after one game is because of the team that beat them on opening day who are, of course, therefore top

Unless they're bottom after an identical defeat as a team earlier in the alphabet who also lost to a team earlier in the alphabet...

Or by some quirk of the master computer that the same two teams play each other in Week One and Two

My brain hurts

[dsr]

There's no way a team that's bottom after one game would play the team that's top in their second game because, statistically, the reason they are bottom after one game is because of the team that beat them on opening day who are, of course, therefore top

Unless they're bottom after an identical defeat as a team earlier in the alphabet who also lost to a team earlier in the alphabet...

Or by some quirk of the master computer that the same two teams play each other in Week One and Two

My brain hurts

In the days of goal average there would be several teams joint top and several teams joint bottom after game 1, because sides that didn't concede wouldn't have a goal average at all (can't divide by zero) and sides that didn't score would have a goal average of zero however many they conceded.

In goal difference days, if the top matches finished 5-1 and 4-0, the 5-1 winners would be top and the 0-4 losers would be bottom, so they could play each other.

But on average, in a division with 24 clubs, there would be total 24 x 23 = 552 games.

Of those games, 1 in 24 would involve the top side at home, and of those games, 1 in 23 would have the bottom side as opponents. Multiply up, it's 1 game in every 552. This works by the same calculation iin every division regardless of how many teams - you would expect top v bottom once per season per division.

Allowing for war and for only 1 or 2 divisions in the early years, there will have been about 500 division-seasons so about 500 estimated top v bottom games. Hope that helps!

[Hipper]

In the days of goal average there would be several teams joint top and several teams joint bottom after game 1, because sides that didn't concede wouldn't have a goal average at all (can't divide by zero) and sides that didn't score would have a goal average of zero however many they conceded.

In goal difference days, if the top matches finished 5-1 and 4-0, the 5-1 winners would be top and the 0-4 losers would be bottom, so they could play each other.

But on average, in a division with 24 clubs, there would be total 24 x 23 = 552 games.

Of those games, 1 in 24 would involve the top side at home, and of those games, 1 in 23 would have the bottom side as opponents. Multiply up, it's 1 game in every 552. This works by the same calculation iin every division regardless of how many teams - you would expect top v bottom once per season per division.

Allowing for war and for only 1 or 2 divisions in the early years, there will have been about 500 division-seasons so about 500 estimated top v bottom games. Hope that helps!

I follow your case for a 24 team division to have 552 matches. However each week of 12 matches could involve a top team at home as top teams, like bottom ones, can change weekly. They may not but they can. Surely therefore it's possible that each week a top home side could play a bottom away side. Similarly it's possible it never occurs. It's further complicated by the fact that, particularly these days, matches are spread over a number of days so it's possible that each set of 12 fixtures could have 3, 4 or 5 such matches! Your argument seems to be based on their being only one top and one bottom team all season and each weeks matches are played at the same time.

This season in The Championship Cardiff have been bottom since week 2 and have yet to play a top team away! Top teams have changed - ourselves, Sunderland, WBA.