Am I missing something?

[CaptJohn]

Dear Madge,
Numerous posters say that we are missing a dominant centre half yet we have both Kevin Long and Bobby Thomas on the books. Why doesn't VK give them a chance because we do need a big lad at the back, so am I missing something
Confused of Chester.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Looks like both are leaving

[Yorkshirelad]

We also have a new signing Luke Mcnally

[agreenwood]

You’re probably missing having seen either of them play enough to ask for their inclusion?

I know I am.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I can't imagine why a former world class CB and multiple title winner isn't picking Long....it sure is a mystery

[hetheclaret]

Dear Madge,
Numerous posters say that we are missing a dominant centre half yet we have both Kevin Long and Bobby Thomas on the books. Why doesn't VK give them a chance because we do need a big lad at the back, so am I missing something
Confused of Chester.

I’m in the ‘Kevin long has been stealing a living for the last ten years’ camp.

If I were a new manager coming into a team and there’s a guy there who’s been happy to sit on the bench for 10 years cashing his pay check, I’d want him out straight away.

Bobby Thomas is not good enough for a team wanting promotion to the PL. If he was, much better teams than Portsmouth would be wanting him.

[Foshiznik]

If Kevin Long is the answer, I don’t want to know the question.

[Dark Cloud]

I'm guessing that although VK might be very tempted to play Kevin Long because of his defensive capabilities at this level as well as his his experience and if he did we might look far less likely to concede these odd goals which are costing us right now, he isn't picking him because he doesn't fit with his philosophy of keeping possession in tight situations and passing out from the back and he feels Long belongs to a past era in many respects.

[Colburn_Claret]

Isn't one of McNally's attributes that he can pick out a pass. I thought Charlie's use of the ball last night was very poor, regardless of getting caught out for the goal. We obviously want to stop the conceding, but I would prioritise a body than can help make better use of all our possession.

I assume VK knows best, but if not McNally, we need an upgrade.

[Colburn_Claret]

Isn't one of McNally's attributes that he can pick out a pass. I thought Charlie's use of the ball last night was very poor, regardless of getting caught out for the goal. We obviously want to stop the conceding, but I would prioritise a body than can help make better use of all our possession.

I assume VK knows best, but if not McNally, we need an upgrade.

[Stayingup]

I’m in the ‘Kevin long has been stealing a living for the last ten years’ camp.

If I were a new manager coming into a team and there’s a guy there who’s been happy to sit on the bench for 10 years cashing his pay check, I’d want him out straight away.

Bobby Thomas is not good enough for a team wanting promotion to the PL. If he was, much better teams than Portsmouth would be wanting him.

Not his fault. The club kept him and offered him contracts. He's never really let uus down when he has played. But his type of player is probably not suited to our new style of play. Then again neither is Tayor at Centre Back. The guy stealing a living has unfortunately been JBG.

[alwaysaclaret]

Isn't one of McNally's attributes that he can pick out a pass. I thought Charlie's use of the ball last night was very poor, regardless of getting caught out for the goal. We obviously want to stop the conceding, but I would prioritise a body than can help make better use of all our possession.

I assume VK knows best, but if not McNally, we need an upgrade.

CT's use of the ball was poor because he's simply not a Cb imo, we all saw he's peach of a cross late in the game, we'd been crying out for that all night, more of them imo and we'd have won the game. Charlie Taylor needs to be doing what he does best, at times he looked very frustrated last night, I believe he almost felt as if he was caged up. My guess is that he'll be back at dirty Leeds.

[warksclaret]

A new dominant centre half is one of the key missing parts of the jig saw. Whilst we play Taylor there, or even consider players like Long we run the risk of teams playing against us getting one chance, putting it away, and stealing all 3 points. Happened at Watford and nearly did v Luton and last night. The trend is too obvious. Anyone in any doubt look at the Watford and Hull goals and look at where Taylor is. Not his fault-he has played LB all his career and for the past 4-5 years been partnered by two of the best centre halves Burnley have had in the past 20 years

[steve1264b]

Tbf to Bobby Thomas he was outstanding at Barrow and instrumental in keeping them up. What he really needed then was a good season at championship level but it never happened.

We obviously cant loan him to another championship side so Portsmouth riding high in league one with a good crowd would be an excellent loan for him.

[CoolClaret]

I’m in the ‘Kevin long has been stealing a living for the last ten years’ camp.

Turns up every day, doesn’t kick up a fuss and until recently was never injured and always available for selection

Played 16 games the season we finished 7th

How’s that ‘stealing a living’?

Pathetic view of one of our players

[CaptJohn]

Good to hear different opinions but at times I do feel that Managers become fixated on a single issue and ignore the obvious when it's there in front of them. SD did it with his rigid, unbending formation that stifled creative players such as McNeil and I think VK is doing it with the CB position. Put in KL and put Charlie to left back with Maatsen further up the park on the left. We might even look dangerous from set pieces again.

[Jamesy]

If Kevin Long is the answer, I don’t want to know the question.

That is insulting to Kevin Long. He is our longest serving player and has never let us down and could easily hold down a regular first team place in this division. It’s just that VK probably doesn’t fancy him in his current set up.
At present we have an established Premier League left back playing at centre half and it is clear it isn’t his preferred or most suitable position. We have a young mobile footballing centre half in Harwood Bellis who I think big Kev would complement very well and give us the height we require defending corners and set pieces and balls into our box.
Maatsen at left back is indeed a good prospect and offers our best attacking threat at present. This is the dilemma. He cannot defend as well as Taylor but he plays the Kompany way.
I think with the current defensive set up we will concede in most games. That’s fine as long as we are banging them in at the other end which we are struggling to do at present. Putting big Kev in at Centre half and Charlie back to left back would make us a good defensive unit.
My main concerns with our team/squad at present is further up the pitch. I am struggling to see what Bastion offers to the team and Vitinho looks like a passenger. Benson is not ready for this level of football even though he has played in the Belgian top division. For an rating of his performance last night just cut and paste his performance from the Luton match.
On the plus side Tella looks a good player and I would like to see him start against the lashers.

[warksclaret]

I agree we should only use constructive criticism about any Burnley player. However you would have thought someone would at jumped at the opportunity to sign Kevin Long in 14 years (he is an Owen Coyle signing), or loan him, and that's not been the case. At the moment I see him as 5th choice centre half in VK's eyes, and with scrutiny on wages, and the talk of another CH, we need to get him out on loan as a minimum. Same applies to Lowton and JBG

[Greenmile]

I’m no tactical expert, but it seems to me that Taylor is fulfilling a unique role in the team that means he plays left back when we’re in possession, with Maatsen playing high and wide as a winger and the nominal LM (eg Bastien) tucking in to provide more space for Maatsen. Then when we’re out of possession (usually about 25% of the game ), Taylor plays at centre half and Maatsen drops back a little to more of a “traditional” LWB position.

This means that any replacement for Taylor would need to be proficient at left back and centre half. I’m not sure how many players there are out there who fulfill that criterion, but I’m fairly confident that Long isn’t the answer.

Of course, VK could decide to change the above tactic, but I think it would impact on Maatsen’s effectiveness, which has been one of the highlights of our overall play this season, for me (Clive).

[Jamesy]

I agree we should only use constructive criticism about any Burnley player. However you would have thought someone would at jumped at the opportunity to sign Kevin Long in 14 years (he is an Owen Coyle signing), or loan him, and that's not been the case. At the moment I see him as 5th choice centre half in VK's eyes, and with scrutiny on wages, and the talk of another CH, we need to get him out on loan as a minimum. Same applies to Lowton and JBG

5th choice Centre Half? Seriously?

[ClaretTony]

I agree we should only use constructive criticism about any Burnley player. However you would have thought someone would at jumped at the opportunity to sign Kevin Long in 14 years (he is an Owen Coyle signing), or loan him, and that's not been the case. At the moment I see him as 5th choice centre half in VK's eyes, and with scrutiny on wages, and the talk of another CH, we need to get him out on loan as a minimum. Same applies to Lowton and JBG

He had six loans but none since 2016. I’m told he wanted to go out on loan in more recent seasons but was told no as he was needed here as cover.

I do wonder though, he’s 32 tomorrow and has played just 142 league games for Burnley & his loan clubs.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

5th choice Centre Half? Seriously?

Yes

THB
Egan-Riley
McNally
Taylor

All of those lads are ahead of Long for a position as starting CB and that's before we sign anyone else.

[Jamesy]

Good to hear different opinions but at times I do feel that Managers become fixated on a single issue and ignore the obvious when it's there in front of them. SD did it with his rigid, unbending formation that stifled creative players such as McNeil and I think VK is doing it with the CB position. Put in KL and put Charlie to left back with Maatsen further up the park on the left. We might even look dangerous from set pieces again.

You beat me to it with the defensive line up suggestion. We both must have posted within seconds of each other.

[Jamesy]

Yes

THB
Egan-Riley
McNally
Taylor

All of those lads are ahead of Long for a position as starting CB and that's before we sign anyone else.

Seriously?

[nil_desperandum]

Seriously?

Yes

[RVclaret]

Seriously?

100%

Long won’t play for Burnley again

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Seriously?

You can keep asking that as many times as you want, but you won't see Kevin Long become first choice here unless there are several injuries, same as any other period where he's had a prolonged run in the team.

[claretandy]

Long is currently injured... End of thread.

[Jamesy]

So two relatively inexperienced players in Egan Riley who has played at RB in most of his City cameo appearances, and McNally signed from Oxford are ahead of Long in the pecking order? Laughable.

[Jamesy]

Long is currently injured... End of thread.

Cannot argue with that! Thanks.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

So two relatively inexperienced players in Egan Riley who has played at RB in most of his City cameo appearances, and McNally signed from Oxford are ahead of Long in the pecking order? Laughable.

Egan-Riley is a Centre back who can play at RB and CDM.
McNally is a CB with lots of potential and is making the step up into the Championship as you'd expect.

You can keep asking seriously and saying laughable as much as you want, but if Kevin Long was a serious contender for first choice, then we wouldn't be trying to sign yet another CB whilst already having the others I've mentioned.

[alwaysaclaret]

I’m no tactical expert, but it seems to me that Taylor is fulfilling a unique role in the team that means he plays left back when we’re in possession, with Maatsen playing high and wide as a winger and the nominal LM (eg Bastien) tucking in to provide more space for Maatsen. Then when we’re out of possession (usually about 25% of the game ), Taylor plays at centre half and Maatsen drops back a little to more of a “traditional” LWB position.

This means that any replacement for Taylor would need to be proficient at left back and centre half. I’m not sure how many players there are out there who fulfill that criterion, but I’m fairly confident that Long isn’t the answer.

Of course, VK could decide to change the above tactic, but I think it would impact on Maatsen’s effectiveness, which has been one of the highlights of our overall play this season, for me (Clive).

Understand everything your saying here Gm, and makes sense, but 2 things were highlighted with it last night, firstly maatsen wasn't getting far enough forward imo, several times he needed to get down the line and give CT an option, and secondly CT puts a far better cross in, he's cross late on was a peach and we'd been crying out for it all night, maatsen simply couldn't beat the first man on several occasions.

[Jamesy]

Egan-Riley is a Centre back who can play at RB and CDM.
McNally is a CB with lots of potential and is making the step up into the Championship as you'd expect.

You can keep asking seriously and saying laughable as much as you want, but if Kevin Long was a serious contender for first choice, then we wouldn't be trying to sign yet another CB whilst already having the others I've mentioned.

Only said laughable once. Clearly Kevin Long is surplus to requirements if posters on this thread are anything to go by.
The fact that he has played several dozen games in the highest division at CB doesn’t seem to carry any weight. Anyway, no point trying to argue further why he may be worth a place in the team. As someone said above, he is injured.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Only said laughable once. Clearly Kevin Long is surplus to requirements if posters on this thread are anything to go by.
The fact that he has played several dozen games in the highest division at CB doesn’t seem to carry any weight. Anyway, no point trying to argue further why he may be worth a place in the team. As someone said above, he is injured.

Several dozen games in the PL, across 7 yrs....
He was only 3rd choice at best when we were in the PL, hence why he barely played.

You're arguing over someone who's pretty much been 3rd choice or lower for the whole time he's been here and has slipped further down the pecking order.
If he was fit, he'd still be parked on the bench or left out of the squad.

[Conroy92]

So two relatively inexperienced players in Egan Riley who has played at RB in most of his City cameo appearances, and McNally signed from Oxford are ahead of Long in the pecking order? Laughable.

Would fully expect both of those players to be picked ahead of Long.

[Jambo]

Long is injured (and not very good). What I don't really follow is the calls for a big new defender to come in - presumably to take Taylor's spot - when we spent £2m on McNally, who is 6'3 according to Google. Like, I get some of the lads we signed are with an eye on the future but we're playing a left-back ahead of two new centre-backs we signed, I think it's a bit weird to want yet another defender to come in given the resources we have already.

[Jamesy]

Several dozen games in the PL, across 7 yrs....
He was only 3rd choice at best when we were in the PL, hence why he barely played.

You're arguing over someone who's pretty much been 3rd choice or lower for the whole time he's been here and has slipped further down the pecking order.
If he was fit, he'd still be parked on the bench or left out of the squad.

Not in the Championship he wouldn’t. Anyway it’s clear he probably won’t fit into VK’s plans even when fit so I think I will just accept that opinions on players differ and we certainly have different opinions on Kevin Long.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Not in the Championship he wouldn’t. Anyway it’s clear he probably won’t fit into VK’s plans even when fit so I think I will just accept that opinions on players differ and we certainly have different opinions on Kevin Long.

Is that based on his 23 championship appearances over the years?

Of course we have differing opinions, you think he's the next defensive rock at the age of 31 and very limited playing experience and I don't because of the aforementioned limited playing experience and age.

[Jamesy]

Is that based on his 23 championship appearances over the years?

Of course we have differing opinions, you think he's the next defensive rock at the age of 31 and very limited playing experience and I don't because of the aforementioned limited playing experience and age.

Never said he was a defensive rock. I was just looking at alternatives to the current defensive formation which will be prone to leaking goals in most games. That’s all.

[CrosspoolClarets]

While I do want a TALL quick centre back alongside THB, last night showed that we need to prioritise the quick bit because we push so far up. Long’s been a great servant, but if he had to turn back last night and charge after the attacker he’d still be completing his turn now.

Charlie isn’t slow, bit when we see modern defenders they have to be proper quick. Maatsen is a great example.

[warksclaret]

I think KL's agent needs to do his best to find him a club. the same applies to Lowton, and maybe even JBG depending on progress and playing time in the next month or so. The longer they leave it, the quicker their careers could suddenly end. Eric Pieters and Aron Lennon have shown how hard it is.We are well into a new season and neither have found new clubs

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Never said he was a defensive rock. I was just looking at alternatives to the current defensive formation which will be prone to leaking goals in most games. That’s all.

The club is looking at alternatives too, hence the links to the defenders, but Kevin Long isn't going to be it
5th choice at best, get used to it.

[Jamesy]

The club is looking at alternatives too, hence the links to the defenders, but Kevin Long isn't going to be it
5th choice at best, get used to it.

Ok,ok you have made your point now….. let it go FFS.

[nil_desperandum]

I was just looking at alternatives to the current defensive formation which will be prone to leaking goals in most games. That’s all.

But there's absolutely no evidence to support this so far. In 4 games we've conceded just 3 rather careless goals, but other than that - in the 4 matches, the defence have completely snuffed out everything to the extent that Muric has hardly made a save. This is particularly impressive when you consider that it's an entirely different style of defensive play with a new keeper, 2 new "centre backs", a new left back, and Roberts in a slightly different role. One would assume that they will develop an even greater understanding as the season progresses.
You could argue that Taylor is the weak link 9at present), but his movement and distribution are way better than Long's, and he is new to this role so, unless he is injured, suspended or sold, then there's no way Long will get in the team, especially as McNally is highly rated, and apparently can play out form the back.
Conceding less than a goal a game should guarantee us at least a play off place, but the problem is at the other end of the pitch, and we need to start putting our chances away.

[Jambo]

Ah yes, apart from the soft goals we keep conceding despite having 95% possession, our defence looks great! Proper head in the sand stuff.

[warksclaret]

But there's absolutely no evidence to support this so far. In 4 games we've conceded just 3 rather careless goals, but other than that - in the 4 matches, the defence have completely snuffed out everything to the extent that Muric has hardly made a save. This is particularly impressive when you consider that it's an entirely different style of defensive play with a new keeper, 2 new "centre backs", a new left back, and Roberts in a slightly different role. One would assume that they will develop an even greater understanding as the season progresses.
You could argue that Taylor is the weak link 9at present), but his movement and distribution are way better than Long's, and he is new to this role so, unless he is injured, suspended or sold, then there's no way Long will get in the team, especially as McNally is highly rated, and apparently can play out form the back.
Conceding less than a goal a game should guarantee us at least a play off place, but the problem is at the other end of the pitch, and we need to start putting our chances away.

I have gone from dreading a pasting in the PL games each week, and not getting any points, to the fear of now now having 75% plus possession and not scoring, then the opposition having one attack, scoring and taking either one or all three points. I am sure other clarets feel the same. We need to play with two orthodox CH's and not with someone approaching 29 who has only ever played LB in his career. This is relatively easy to resolve. The difficult part for VK is knowing which of the following he should start with ie Benson, Bastian, Vitinho, Tella a, Costelloe, and shortly Churlinov

[spt_claret]

The guy stealing a living has unfortunately been JBG.

I hope you never have health issues that impact your ability to do your job. Utterly disgraceful comment. A serious injury or health condition whether acute or chronic is never easy to deal with and impacts quality of life and ultimately mental well-being as well, especially chronic or recurrent problems. You're left feeling like it's your fault you're unwell, and comments like this intensify this. And before you bring up his salary - He's an international footballer who has represented his nation in the World Cup, you don't get that far without competitive drive and ambition, the money is a poor substitute for the mental toll it takes to be unable to do what you're good at and love, and miss out on what should be prime experiences.
Gudmundsson has had a tragically unfortunate injury record, and the club has always done the utmost right thing in standing by and trying to support him through it, not just because of the valuable services he's offered us when fit (particularly in the 2017-18 season) but because it's the right thing to do.

[JR1882]

I’m in the camp of “Kevin long has never let us down in the prem and would stop us being bullied in the champ”

Not a passer of the ball by any means but he only needs to find THB or Cullen 5 yards away and let them play out.

[spt_claret]

I’m no tactical expert, but it seems to me that Taylor is fulfilling a unique role in the team that means he plays left back when we’re in possession, with Maatsen playing high and wide as a winger and the nominal LM (eg Bastien) tucking in to provide more space for Maatsen. Then when we’re out of possession (usually about 25% of the game ), Taylor plays at centre half and Maatsen drops back a little to more of a “traditional” LWB position.

This means that any replacement for Taylor would need to be proficient at left back and centre half. I’m not sure how many players there are out there who fulfill that criterion, but I’m fairly confident that Long isn’t the answer.

Of course, VK could decide to change the above tactic, but I think it would impact on Maatsen’s effectiveness, which has been one of the highlights of our overall play this season, for me (Clive).

You downplay yourself at the start but this is spot on and why so much criticism of Taylor and especially Bastien is misunderstanding their role and what they do. Bastien in particular is perhaps more important right now for his off ball than on ball duties, we're playing a very fluid system which has different formations in both attack and defence, both of which are assymetrical. It's actually not much like City for all the talk- the highly attacking, possession heavy ethos is there but player roles very different.

I think Long could potentially shore up our backline but not in this style. You'd need to go 433, probably move Taylor left and Maatsen up to left wing, which means dropping one of the CM four- in a 433 you generally want two energetic CMs with the pivot so that's Cork or Cullen dropped or asked to play a different role, or you play a double pivot, drop Bastien or Brownhill and accept a more e defensive setup. And that's before considering the striker problem, I'm not sure who could play the centre forward role in that except maybe Twine in more of a Firminio fashion. Jay/Barnes aren't big or quick enough.

But it's a moot point as Long won't play and we won't abandon system 4 games in.

[nil_desperandum]

I have gone from dreading a pasting in the PL games each week, and not getting any points, to the fear of now now having 75% plus possession and not scoring, then the opposition having one attack, scoring and taking either one or all three points. I am sure other clarets feel the same. We need to play with two orthodox CH's and not with someone approaching 29 who has only ever played LB in his career.

But we could have two "solid orthodox" CHs who can't pass a ball, much less possession, produce less chances, and still concede a goal every 120 minutes or so, and get the same draws. If we are only conceding 3 goals in every 4 matches but only picking up draws, then it's obvious that the problems are at the other end of the field.
Defensively we could obviously improve upon Taylor and THB, (e.g. Tarkowski and Mee), but they work pretty well together in Kompany's system.