Sander Berge

[Tackler49]

Read Sanders clarets interview where he spoke highly about is time with Burnley and is looking forward to putting things right next season but was it really thanks and goodbye because just over a week ago VK said that he was planning for next season ha, in a 40min interview he spoke about last season but never once said the word BURNLEY or his time at the club i just hope Sander is more sincere. If he was to stay he would be our passport out of the Championship UTC

[NottsClaret]

Just depends what offers come in. He's in his prime, I'd imagine he feels he should be playing at the top level. Seems a decent sort though, doubt he'll kick off if a move doesn't materialise.

[Jamesy]

Just depends what offers come in. He's in his prime, I'd imagine he feels he should be playing at the top level. Seems a decent sort though, doubt he'll kick off if a move doesn't materialise.

The choice of new manager will determine whether he stays or wants to leave. I hope we do manage to hold onto him though.
If we don’t achieve promotion next season and he has put a shift in I don’t think any of us would have a problem if he left.
Currently the best player in our squad by a considerable distance.

[Indecisive]

Two reasons I doubt he'll be here.

1/ he would probably demand a significant fee and we need to bring in some funds and reduce the squad. For me he'd do a job at most prem teams outside the real big boys. He's a proper premier league standard player if you ask me, and he plays a pretty progressive style.

2/ he arguably needs to be playing at a higher level right now considering his age. He's really in his prime and for his career he should be in the premier league. I absolutely don't buy the loyalty argument, or owing us something. Players primary concerns are always realistically going to be their career.

Regardless of where he plays next year he's been a joy to watch in an otherwise very 'challenging' season to get upbeat about.

On reflection in terms of ability, I'd say he's probably up there with Defour in terms of real quality in the 30 years I've been watching.

[bodge]

An absolutely top performer is Sander and in my book was comfortably the player of the season, will definitely be an asset to any mid table Premier League team.

Would be overjoyed if he's with us for the full season but I very much doubt it for the reasons stated by Indecisive above.

[MACCA]

Take it with a handful of salt should you wish, but I've been told we have already had enquiries regards his availability from 2 premier league clubs.

So I highly doubt we will see sander playing for Burnley next season due to the fact

A. We could get decent money for him, and should mean we can keep the majority of the other players we want too build our promotion push around

B. Sander himself may not want a season in the championship IF he has several premier league suitors factoring in the obvious better finical package on offer.

I'm aware he stayed on at Sheff Utd last time around, but that doesn't mean he will want too again.

[RVclaret]

Maybe someone like Lampard can convince him to stay for the season and we can make up on fees elsewhere. We’re already bringing in 11m from Kompany and possibly 20m for Trafford. Odobert goes for 20m (we’ve got an abundance of wingers) and you’re very quickly on 50m in sales.

Otherwise the board have to be demanding 20-25m for him in my view.

[ClaretPete001]

There seems to be a great presumption on here we've paid for these players.

[NewClaret]

For me, keeping Sander should be our main objective of the summer and is absolutely vital to our promotion push. I feel losing Kompany (given he built this whole squad around his style) reduces our chances of promotion so if ALK want an immediate return, holding on to him and our best players is more important than it was.

It would also be a real statement of intent if we can keep him and also save us from needing to strengthen in midfield if we go up because he was the only one who really looked suited to that level.

If push came to shove I’d rather we keep Sander and sell one players in positions we are better stocked (Odobert, Trafford). Not that I want to let anyone go really.

[ecc]

There seems to be a great presumption on here we've paid for these players.

Indeed. But then we will still be owed money on sales of former players.

[NewClaret]

There seems to be a great presumption on here we've paid for these players.

You’d guess this summers instalments (based on £100m/4 - average length of the contracts signed) are about £25-£30m. In which case the Kompany fee probably pays an unexpected chunk of them.

[equinox]

The choice of new manager will determine whether he stays or wants to leave.

Offer him the player/manager role then.

[ClaretTony]

Indeed. But then we will still be owed money on sales of former players.

I think when we sell a player, we take out a loan to get the money immediately. That being the case, we aren't owed any money on sales.

[Royboyclaret]

I think when we sell a player, we take out a loan to get the money immediately. That being the case, we aren't owed any money on sales.

Might have been the case, but not the current procedure.

[ClaretTony]

Might have been the case, but not the current procedure.

It was two years ago

[Royboyclaret]

It was two years ago

Two years, two seasons is a long time.

[Jamesy]

Offer him the player/manager role then.

Faaaacking hell, why didn’t I think of that?
Brilliant idea……. not.

[ClaretTony]

Two years, two seasons is a long time.

It is a long time but we did that in the summer of 2022. Who have we sold to justify your suggestion that we no longer do it?

[Big Vinny K]

Might have been the case, but not the current procedure.

It is - we have been factoring any payments due to us for the last 3 years. Whether it’s TV money from Premier League or player sales.
Why would you think it’s not current procedure ? We did it on Wood, Pope and on recent premier league tv payments.

It’s a very expensive method of commercial finance too. At the level we are dealing with I do not know a more expensive way of borrowing money (it’s the commission fees that are pretty extortionate)

The decision to do this IMHO can only reflect a pretty marginal cash flow situation and presumably the amount of money that we are having to pay to other clubs for transfer which I’m conservatively estimating at £25m a season in transfer fees and then there will be agent and players signing on fees potentially on top of this. With our cash at the bank significantly reduced in our last accounts (pre the big summer transfer spend) then other than the owners putting in more of their own money (not going to happen) they are having to go down the route of factoring monies which are due to the club.

[Royboyclaret]

It is a long time but we did that in the summer of 2022. Who have we sold to justify your suggestion that we no longer do it?

Alan Pace has a completely new, and refreshing, approach to transfer procedure.....let's see if it pays dividends.......He is a very astute Chairman.

[ClaretTony]

Alan Pace has a completely new, and refreshing, approach to transfer procedure.....let's see if it pays dividends.......He is a very astute Chairman.

So which players did we sell without taking out the loans which we did in 2022 for you to claim that it is no longer the policy? And what is this new, refreshing approach?

[Royboyclaret]

So which players did we sell without taking out the loans which we did in 2022 for you to claim that it is no longer the policy? And what is this new, refreshing approach?

I think BigVinnyK accepts the method change.. Let's see the results of that....two days should see the results of that.

[FCBurnley]

When people finally realize that all modern day Chairmen Managers and Players are mercenaries, they will begin to understand the workings of all football clubs

[Royboyclaret]

When people finally realize that all modern day Chairmen Managers and Players are mercenaries, they will begin to understand the workings of all football clubs

We finally got there, FCBurnley, but will Alan Pace accept the problem ?

[Big Vinny K]

I think BigVinnyK accepts the method change.. Let's see the results of that....two days should see the results of that.

Huh ?
I’ve said the exact opposite !!

[ClaretPete001]

Even if you can only hold two thoughts in your head at any given time (1) the fact that we didn't sell anyone last season but (2) spent over £100 million - will tell you that what is coming in will be nothing compared to what is going out.

The auditors warned of a material uncertainty related to cashflow over the summer unless we can sell players. As far as I can see Sheffield United, Forest and Luton don't have one nor do clubs with reported financial issues like Leeds United.

[Paul Waine]

Guys, we know about the advanced loans BFC received on the sale of Chris Wood, Nick Pope and Nathan Collins because of the charges registered on BF&ACL Companies House records which are titled: Security Assignment of Certain Receivables in Relation to the Transfer of [Player Name]. The one for Nathan Michael Collins was recorded at Companies House early September 2022. 3 payments each of £5 million were due from Wolves in August 2023, August 2024 and August 2025, respectively. It's possible, though I'm not certain, that, as Wolves have already sold Collins to Brentford that Wolves have already settled all 3 payments. The same could be said re Chris Wood, with Newcastle having sold to Nottingham Forest.

There is no charge registered re Dwight McNeil. Thus, either Everton paid on full for McNeil or, given Everton's financial position, Macquarie (who financed the other 3) or any other finance houses, were reluctant to extend credit on the basis of Everton's weak covenant to pay their incoming transfer debts...

[Paul Waine]

There seems to be a great presumption on here we've paid for these players.

Pete, it makes little difference whether BFC have already paid in full for the players the club has bought or still has balances to pay, cash coming into the club offsets both anything that the club is currently required to pay out, plus provides funds for any other expenditure including any new incoming transfers.

[Dark Cloud]

He grew on me as I was definitely undecided initially, but I was aware that some Blades fans had said his "languid" style can appear "lazy" and many people can think he's not busting a gut when actually he's doing far more than that once you learn to appreciate him. He's another of our players I feel would murder the Championship if he stays, but as others have said I suspect we'll get very good offers and remember he left Sheff U when they went down and came to us because he probably feels he's really a PL player.

[Elizabeth]

His weakness in the PL was his lack of agility when put under pressure. This will not be an issue in the Championship so we need him badly if we have any serious thoughts on promotion.
I would expect any future manager to persuade him to want to continue playing for us. If the manager cannot do that he won’t be any good for us.
We can’t be thinking any different otherwise we might as well give up now

[ClaretPete001]

Pete, it makes little difference whether BFC have already paid in full for the players the club has bought or still has balances to pay, cash coming into the club offsets both anything that the club is currently required to pay out, plus provides funds for any other expenditure including any new incoming transfers.

Indeed Paul, we know there is cash coming into the club because we have £30 million worth of factored debt, £52 million of unearned income and a £70 million bank loan. All in all over £230 million worth of creditors at the end of July 23.

Seems like a lot of money to me. And the auditors must have seen a cashflow covering the season just gone because they have issued a material uncertainty warning related to short term cash flow over the summer.

And we are about to lose £50 million worth of broadcast revenue and likely repay tens of millions worth of loan.

Unless, you are Liz Truss and reality is a stranger never encountered - it does matter that the cash coming into the business is debt....! Surely, you agree?

[ClaretPete001]

His weakness in the PL was his lack of agility when put under pressure. This will not be an issue in the Championship so we need him badly if we have any serious thoughts on promotion.
I would expect any future manager to persuade him to want to continue playing for us. If the manager cannot do that he won’t be any good for us.
We can’t be thinking any different otherwise we might as well give up now

I think he was caught out under pressure but I think you have weigh that up against the fact that he was playing in a team that only won 24 points. And as often as not we were playing a style that would have made the Pope look fallible.

[Elizabeth]

I think he was caught out under pressure but I think you have weigh that up against the fact that he was playing in a team that only won 24 points. And as often as not we were playing a style that would have made the Pope look fallible.

Berge clearly cost us around three goals last season so he doesn’t escape scott free

[ClaretPete001]

Berge clearly cost us around three goals last season so he doesn’t escape scott free

He won't escape scott free - he will likely cost someone £15 million plus.

[FCBurnley]

We finally got there, FCBurnley, but will Alan Pace accept the problem ?

I can’t speak for Mr Pace but I would suspect he will have all his personal bases covered but not necessarily those of the club. Time will tell

[Nonayforever]

Loan Sander out on loan to Bayern for this season then bring him back to the PL next season.

[Paul Waine]

Indeed Paul, we know there is cash coming into the club because we have £30 million worth of factored debt, £52 million of unearned income and a £70 million bank loan. All in all over £230 million worth of creditors at the end of July 23.

Seems like a lot of money to me. And the auditors must have seen a cashflow covering the season just gone because they have issued a material uncertainty warning related to short term cash flow over the summer.

And we are about to lose £50 million worth of broadcast revenue and likely repay tens of millions worth of loan.

Unless, you are Liz Truss and reality is a stranger never encountered - it does matter that the cash coming into the business is debt....! Surely, you agree?

Pete, I know I've tried doing this before for you. Creditors are amounts that an entity owes to other entities. Debtors are amounts that other entities owe to the subject entity. These are balance sheet items, debtors and cash in bank on one side of the balance sheet, creditors, including bank loans and overdrafts plus other borrowings on the other side of the balance sheet.

Then there are tangible assets: land and buildings, Turf Moor, training centre etc and intangible assets, player contracts, valued as acquisition costs less amortisation.

Above, there was discussion about Bayer Munich paying BFC to break Kompany's contract with BFC. Plus comments about potential sales of some players. That would be cash coming into the club. It might be that it is paid in installments, in which case the amounts paid later would be debtors, i.e. money owed to BFC - assets. It may be that the club wants to accelerate payment, so they may do what the did with Wood, Pope and Collins transfers and take a loan against these amounts, with the bank providing the loan having claim on amounts owed by the buying clubs.

So, my first point is to understand what side of the balance sheet each item goes on.

My second is that July 2023 is already 10 months ago. A lot has happened both on the field and with the club's finances since then, both balance sheet and cash flows.

The third thing to understand is that the VK compensation and income from potential player sales are today and future cash flows, just as any other incoming - parachute payments, for example - and outgoing items - repayment of any loans, perhaps - are now and future cash flows.

Given all that, can you explain what you are trying to say in your first paragraph that I've quoted above. It's mixing up incoming items and outgoing items. I'm also puzzled what the £52 unearned income is.

[Bin Ont Turf]

Playing wise a modern day Dobbo.

[Quicknick]

Playing wise a modern day Dobbo.

The nearest we have had to Dobbo.

[ClaretPete001]

Given all that, can you explain what you are trying to say in your first paragraph that I've quoted above. It's mixing up incoming items and outgoing items. I'm also puzzled what the £52 unearned income is.

The point on the thread was that it's not easy to just say we will sell players for £21 million and get £21 million cash because we may not have paid for that player yet. Conversely, as CT correctly pointed out, we have taken some of the cash from the sale of players up front. The fag packet conclusion would be this will impact upon cash.

So, I said

Indeed Paul, we know there is cash coming into the club because we have £30 million worth of factored debt, £52 million of unearned income and a £70 million bank loan. All in all over £230 million worth of creditors at the end of July 23.

Your original point seemed to be that there is cash coming into the business. I replied that it is not cash generated by trade but cash generated by debt. We lost nearly £28 million and if you look at the cashflow on Page 17, there is a £15 million cash deficit during the period of the accounts.

So, if you look at Page 36 of the accounts we have £230 million worth of Creditors. Of that £230 million only £68 million is trade creditors. The rest is Bank loans, factored debt and accrued income of £52 million.

On the other hand, we have something like £170 million worth of debtors (Page 35), which consists largely of £124 million taken out of the club by ALK. And just about everyone on here, apart from perhaps yourself, thinks we won't see it again.

And it's not me saying it - it is the auditors because they prepared the accounts and came up with the same view. And while I take your point that a lot may have changed since July 23 but would counter it with the fact that the auditors must have seen cashflow forecasts beyond this summer and into next season and remained unconvinced.

[Turftalkers mentor]

The nearest we have had to Dobbo.

Afraid not

[123EasyasBFC]

I think when we sell a player, we take out a loan to get the money immediately. That being the case, we aren't owed any money on sales.

That wasn’t in the last set of accounts

[blatherwickstattoos]

That wasn’t in the last set of accounts

I’ve heard it was

[Benson]

I’ve heard it was

So it probably wasn’t then.

[blatherwickstattoos]

So it probably wasn’t then.

I also heard that too

[ClaretPete001]

That wasn’t in the last set of accounts

The detail is posted to companies house but we can see factored loans in the accounts we just don't know the specifics.

Not all the players have been bought like that but some were....! It's possible that in some situations lenders regarded the loan as too high risk.

The point CT was addressing was one whereby someone claimed the policy had changed and I don't think we have any evidence of that and none was given by the poster who made the claim....! Given the auditors warning it is unlikely the club is in a position to change its attitude towards factoring debt.

And this is important in any conversation related to Sander Berge because the decision to sell will be based upon a number of factors unrelated to his footballing ability not least that he may have a clause that releases him upon relegation. The club may have to sell not to generate cash but to get him off the wage bill etc etc....!

[Quicknick]

Afraid not

I can't think of anyone else. It's his style of play I was referring to. You don't rate Berge?

[ClaretPete001]

And just to be clear when I say factoring debt I mean when you get income up front, which then becomes a debt, which is owed to creditors awaiting future payments from debtors, which can then be paid to creditors.

In other words, if you go out for a beer and borrow a tenner in the pub because your mate owes you ten but doesn't have it. When you eventually get the tenner from your mate you can give it back to the bloke who gave you the tenner in the pub. So, the same tenner can be both a creditors and debtor.....! And o course I don't literally mean the same ten pound note before someone pulls me up on that...!

And that is where the mixing up of terms come from. I think the points themselves are pretty self evident and don't require verbose explanations, which get on a lot of people's moobs on here anyway.

[ClaretPete001]

And with regard to Sander Berge, I think he was by far the best player last season albeit he doesn't really remind me of anyone from the past.

He always strikes me as a more continental type number 10 who picks the ball up deep and languidly makes progress with it up to the box. And I could cite Zinedine Zidane but clearly in terms of ability there is no comparison rather the way they played on the pitch picking the ball up deep and breaking the lines.

Dobo is not a bad shout but I don't think we played football like we do today in the 70s and probably Dobo was imperious but not languid and I think was a better player but that is not to suggest Sander isn't....!

[NewClaret]

And just to be clear when I say factoring debt I mean when you get income up front, which then becomes a debt, which is owed to creditors awaiting future payments from debtors, which can then be paid to creditors.

In other words, if you go out for a beer and borrow a tenner in the pub because your mate owes you ten but doesn't have it. When you eventually get the tenner from your mate you can give it back to the bloke who gave you the tenner in the pub. So, the same tenner can be both a creditors and debtor.....! And o course I don't literally mean the same ten pound note before someone pulls me up on that...!

And that is where the mixing up of terms come from. I think the points themselves are pretty self evident and don't require verbose explanations, which get on a lot of people's moobs on here anyway.

“Which get on a lot of people’s moobs on here”

Tell you what gets on my moobs guys - financial chat on the Sander thread. Get yourselves back in the takeover thread…