Russia Invades

[Hibsclaret]

It’s already started imo

[RingoMcCartney]

Heard a story from an Ukrainian official on Talkradio earlier this week.

An elderly Ukrainian lady walked up to a Russian soldier. She handed him four seeds. The Russian soldier asked "what were they for?"

Her reply -

"They're sunflower seeds. Put them in your pocket and keep them safe. When you're killed and they bury you, they'll grow up from your grave........."

[Loyalclaret]

There is a video of her doing that from the guardian on this thread Ringo

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Umm..... It's being reported Putin has ordered his Nuclear Deterrent forced to go on standby.

[bfcjg]

I don't think his generals will put up with him much longer. The guarantee that Russia will be wiped out as well as most of the West will surely make them act. He is criminally insane.

[ClaretDiver]

Umm..... It's being reported Putin has ordered his Nuclear Deterrent forced to go on standby.

Beat me to it.....this **** just got more real!

[Vino blanco]

Umm..... It's being reported Putin has ordered his Nuclear Deterrent forced to go on standby.

He’s losing his marbles, I hope his generals get rid of him quickly before he tries to destroy the world.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/14 ... jTEZw&s=19

Worth a read

[burnleymik]

I have never seen a propaganda war like this, from both sides. It's a nightmare to know what is true and what is lies.

[Venkys4eva]

I have never seen a propaganda war like this, from both sides. It's a nightmare to know what is true and what is lies.

Extremely difficult to work that one out

[NewClaret]

Umm..... It's being reported Putin has ordered his Nuclear Deterrent forced to go on standby.

Big fear here is that madman does something daft.

[Lancasterclaret]

I have never seen a propaganda war like this, from both sides. It's a nightmare to know what is true and what is lies.

It isn't at all

To put it as simply as I can, Russia had invaded a country that wants to be part of the West and is a democracy, purely because it wants it not to be a democracy and under Russian control

There isn't anyother side to take if you value the Western way of life

It really is that simple

[Colburn_Claret]

All the rhetoric about sanctions is all well and good but that in itself is declaring war against Russia. It’s doing a watered down version of it and causing financial hardship to millions of innocent Russian civilians whilst a dictator continues to do his worst killing innocent civilians. Sending weapons to be used by people untrained in the use of them is half ar5ed and pathetic. Half a job. Perfect for a lunatic dictator.

You aren't looking at this from the Russian perspective. Putin wants an engagement to prove his theory, the best way to remove him is to show the Russian people that he is in the wrong. At the end of the day they have to remove him themselves, otherwise you end up with the same vacuum we had in Iraq and Afghanistan. We aren't out to conquer Russia, just remove a despot from a free nation. It isn't like North Korea anymore, many Russians enjoy holidays in the med, they know what living in the west is in reality, not the embroidered picture the Kremlin would like to show. Losing the EC Final, and F1 race. Losing the chance to compete against Poland. Having their banks hamstrung, will all have a deep effect on the Russian people. The longer Ukraine can hold out, the worse it will prove for Putin.

[Swizzlestick]

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says Ukrainian and Russian delegations will meet without preconditions on the Ukrainian-Belarusian border near the Pripyat River - Sky News

[Lancasterclaret]

The way Putin is acting does rather suggest that he thought this would be a walk over, and that the West wouldn't do anything

He's listened to his best case scenario reports from Day One, and he's now getting worst case scenario reports from everywhere

He needs a win, and he hasn't got one

Look, there are too many videos online of different parts of the front, of destroyed/abandoned Russian military equipment, the Ukrainian air force still has control of its airspace, and anyone who has read anything about Stalingrad 1942 or Berlin 1945 should know hard it is to take over a city when its defended, despite having massive superiority

You can only hope that there is some way out for him in which he believes he has won, even if he very clearly hasn't I'm afraid

[burnleymik]

It isn't at all

To put it as simply as I can, Russia had invaded a country that wants to be part of the West and is a democracy, purely because it wants it not to be a democracy and under Russian control

There isn't anyother side to take if you value the Western way of life

It really is that simple

It really isn't. To believe it's that straight forward is ridiculously naïve, to say the least.

Propaganda is obviously part of war, but it seems a lot of rubbish coming from the Ukraine as well as Russia.

[Lancasterclaret]

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1497938505682591752

Russia willing to enter peace talks with Ukraine "without preconditions" is absolutely huge though, and potentially a way out of this for everyone

[Lancasterclaret]

It really isn't. To believe it's that straight forward is ridiculously naïve, to say the least.

Propaganda is obviously part of war, but it seems a lot of rubbish coming from the Ukraine as well as Russia.

It is that straight forward though

Do you think your life will stay the same if Russia wins?

Do you really think that?

Have you seen what Germany have done in the last three days?

They have gone from not wanting to do anything, to stopping Nordstream II, to backing the harshest possible sanctions, to giving arms to the Ukrainians directly, to voted for a £200 billion increase in defense expenditure in 72 hours

Now, they know the dangers of someone in charge with expansionist aims better than anyone, and have changed their entire stance to military affairs in 72 hours

Do you see it now?

I can't make it clearer than that

[Swizzlestick]

While there’s obviously a lot of noise when it comes to information, especially in the social media age, a lot of info coming from official Ukrainian sources has been found to be pretty accurate.

[Lancasterclaret]

While there’s obviously a lot of noise when it comes to information, especially in the social media age, a lot of info coming from official Ukrainian sources has been found to be pretty accurate.

It has to be though

Look, I don't want to get into old arguments, but the Russian disinformation machine is huge, and there is no point trying to match it

But there is a point to tackling it by being honest about what is happening, and backing it up with accurate information

By and large, one side is doing that, and the other one isn't

[Hibsclaret]

You aren't looking at this from the Russian perspective. Putin wants an engagement to prove his theory, the best way to remove him is to show the Russian people that he is in the wrong. At the end of the day they have to remove him themselves, otherwise you end up with the same vacuum we had in Iraq and Afghanistan. We aren't out to conquer Russia, just remove a despot from a free nation. It isn't like North Korea anymore, many Russians enjoy holidays in the med, they know what living in the west is in reality, not the embroidered picture the Kremlin would like to show. Losing the EC Final, and F1 race. Losing the chance to compete against Poland. Having their banks hamstrung, will all have a deep effect on the Russian people. The longer Ukraine can hold out, the worse it will prove for Putin.

I’ve been told I’m not looking at it from the Russia perspective and that I want a world war…all in the space of a page on up the clarets. Is it possible to have an opinion on here without getting direct misguided assessments of what I’m saying.

The longer Ukraine hold out the more people get killed and the more people lose their homes etc. The longer the west take to take strong action the more people die etc. I’m not interested in looking from a Russian perspective, I’m interested in the perspective that loses the minimum number of lives and gets us back to peace asap. A way of doing this is not arming untrained personnel with weapons.

Comparing dealing with a nuclear superpower like Russia with Iraq and Afghanistan…do me a favour. We need rid of Putin asap because he’s unhinged and capable of anything.

[Bordeauxclaret]

“ I’m interested in the perspective that loses the minimum number of lives and gets us back to peace asap”

Sending our troops in would mean many many more lives lost. Without doubt.

[Lancasterclaret]

We can't get involved at all

NATO cannot be provoked in any way

And to be honest, there are enough Ukrainians to stop Russia, if they have the weaponry and will, and it looks like they have

[THEWELLERNUT70]

The video that emerged on twitter last night ( which twitter has now removed due to policy breach) were incredible.

Two Russian personal carriers approached a road block from where behind around 200 Ukrainians rained petrol bombs down on the two vehicles and basically incinerated them.

Such a simple yet effective weapon used against rela military might

[Colburn_Claret]

I’ve been told I’m not looking at it from the Russia perspective and that I want a world war…all in the space of a page on up the clarets. Is it possible to have an opinion on here without getting direct misguided assessments of what I’m saying.

The longer Ukraine hold out the more people get killed and the more people lose their homes etc. The longer the west take to take strong action the more people die etc. I’m not interested in looking from a Russian perspective, I’m interested in the perspective that loses the minimum number of lives and gets us back to peace asap. A way of doing this is not arming untrained personnel with weapons.

Comparing dealing with a nuclear superpower like Russia with Iraq and Afghanistan…do me a favour. We need rid of Putin asap because he’s unhinged and capable of anything.

By that rationale Ukraine should just surrender, at least you would be happy at all the lives saved.
Not sure how the Ukrainians would take it mind. You can't have a peace when a free nation is subjugated to a tyrant. If it costs lives to restore freedom, then that is a price many Ukrainians are prepared to pay. To join in and help them with feet on the ground, apart from playing into Putin's hands, would cost hundreds of thousands of lives, if we are lucky, it could be millions.

I struggle to see what you are expecting from this escalation of NATO enjoining in open conflict. As long as there is a chance that this can be resolved internally in Russia, the more we should refrain from knee jerk reactions.

[burnleymik]

It is that straight forward though

Do you think your life will stay the same if Russia wins?

Do you really think that?

Have you seen what Germany have done in the last three days?

They have gone from not wanting to do anything, to stopping Nordstream II, to backing the harshest possible sanctions, to giving arms to the Ukrainians directly, to voted for a £200 billion increase in defense expenditure in 72 hours

Now, they know the dangers of someone in charge with expansionist aims better than anyone, and have changed their entire stance to military affairs in 72 hours

Do you see it now?

I can't make it clearer than that

You are arguing a point I haven't disagreed with? Have I said Russia are not wrong? Of course they are, but if you think everything coming out of the Ukraine is true, then you are only proving my point. You have somehow misconstrued my words as if I somehow think what Russia is doing is the right thing?

Wind it in a bit.

My point was that the lies from both sides, mainly via media and social media, are probably a long way from the truth on the ground.

[Lancasterclaret]

BBC reporting from the border with trains full of Ukrainians heading into L'viv to fight who have been abroad

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/statu ... 6257008642

[IanMcL]

Come on Ukraine.

I begin to wonder if there will be many 'civilian volunteers' from the west, who turn up, very well trained and with their own heavy duty firepower!

Much happening in Hereford?

[Sottpark1 !]

Anyone any thoughts on the Chelsea statement re Abramovich stepping aside , thought it was weak at best ,

[Lancasterclaret]

You are arguing a point I haven't disagreed with? Have I said Russia are not wrong? Of course they are, but if you think everything coming out of the Ukraine is true, then you are only proving my point. You have somehow misconstrued my words as if I somehow think what Russia is doing is the right thing?

Wind it in a bit.

My point was that the lies from both sides, mainly via media and social media, are probably a long way from the truth on the ground.

Ah, I misunderstood you a bit

Apologies

But I have answered your point though in a post about Russian disinformation v Ukrainian social media/tv information - one can be backed up (and of course some of it is incorrect) and one cannot

There is a lot of disinformation around, but in the era of camera phones and ridiculously good military tech, there is a lot more info that is both checkable and verifiable, and most of that is coming from the Ukrainian side

[BigChaCha]

Come on Ukraine.

I begin to wonder if there will be many 'civilian volunteers' from the west, who turn up, very well trained and with their own heavy-duty firepower!

Much happening in Hereford?

Zelensky is establishing an International Legion for foreigners who want to fight for Ukraine -

https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine ... ?r=US&IR=T

[CombatClaret]

I have never seen a propaganda war like this, from both sides. It's a nightmare to know what is true and what is lies.

There are also just thousands of people posting old videos or photos just in an attempt to get likes and follows.

If I see one more "Ghost of Kyiv" tweet with footage from a video game...

[Hibsclaret]

And still the point is missed. It’s irony that our government will allow our citizens to help Ukraine whilst our army sits at the border. It’s taken Germany 3 days to agree to proper sanctions and to help with armoury. There is way too much faffing about by saying we can’t do this we can’t do that.

[Billy Balfour]

Do you see it now?

I can't make it clearer than that

Yep. Their policy change is truly damascene. It's a game changer, too.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

And still the point is missed. It’s irony that our government will allow our citizens to help Ukraine whilst our army sits at the border. It’s taken Germany 3 days to agree to proper sanctions and to help with armoury. There is way too much faffing about by saying we can’t do this we can’t do that.

You're the one missing the points being made about NATO being unable to send troops into Ukraine right now.
That's despite several of us trying to explain it to you.

I suspect many of the UK citizens are also Ukrainians who became naturalised Brits.

Germany tends to avoid conflicts for obvious reasons, plus they're one of the countries most reliant on Russian energy, so they have to think a lot more about the impact on their own people.

It isn't faffing about, it's ensuring there isn't WW3

[Hibsclaret]

Where have I said troops should be sent in?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

You just complained about our troops being sat on the border whilst civilians are allowed in.
You've repeated that point several times today so I took it that you want troops sending in.

[Hibsclaret]

Despite all the know it alls that know better than me I’m getting told I said something I didn’t. I said the west should do more and that untrained people should not be having to defend their country.

[Hibsclaret]

You just complained about our troops being sat on the border whilst civilians are allowed in.
You've repeated that point several times today so I took it that you want troops sending in.

You took it incorrectly

[RVclaret]

Despite all the know it alls that know better than me I’m getting told I said something I didn’t. I said the west should do more and that untrained people should not be having to defend their country.

What is ‘doing more’ than trying to cripple their economy? Also Germany just sent anti tank missiles and other artillery to Ukraine. Aside from sending our own troops in which is another matter and one I don’t think is wise.

[Vegas Claret]

If not already, this chap is definitely worth a follow:

https://twitter.com/ralee85?s=11

thanks for this, head and shoulders above most of the other things. Don't know how but the TSO-1 needs taking care of before it's used

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Despite all the know it alls that know better than me I’m getting told I said something I didn’t. I said the west should do more and that untrained people should not be having to defend their country.

What do you recommend?
We are sending weapons, fuel, equipment and trying to financially cripple Russia via sanctions.
There's another group engaging in cyber warfare.

The next step would be to declare war....unless you have a different idea.

[Vegas Claret]

Despite all the know it alls that know better than me I’m getting told I said something I didn’t. I said the west should do more and that untrained people should not be having to defend their country.

at the minute the Ukrainians are managing reasonably comfortably with the constant supply of inventory from the West, if Russia escalates (which they will) then NATO will have a decision to make. I would imagine a lot depends on the meeting on the Belarus border and it's outcome. All good and well Putin announcing he's put the Nuclear forces on high alert but as you've all ready seen, there's a lot of bluster coming out of Russia and they can't back it up. I would imagine NATO will have a microscopic view of every single Nuclear facility to help in the decision making, I don't see anyway they let Putin launch a Nuclear attack without it triggering a full blown world war as horrific as that sounds.

Just a reminder to all as well, keep the discussions civil - we don't want the thread locking again

[bfcjg]

I do not think Putin has realised in the modern world how interconnected we are and how powerful social media is. The Russian people must be worried sick about living in a pariah state similar to North Korea, they need to oust him now whilst his credibility is rock bottom.

[TsarBomba]

thanks for this, head and shoulders above most of the other things. Don't know how but the TSO-1 needs taking care of before it's used

Yes, he’s really very good.

I follow upwards of 250-300 accounts of varying quality.

But there’s probably only around a dozen that I would use to post on here, and he is one of them. The accounts committed to publishing accurate information go through their own verification process before they post, so when they do, you know that it is going to be as accurate as can be in the circumstances. Another good thing is if he makes a mistake, he will happily put his hands up and say he’s released inaccurate information, and remove it.

[Lancasterclaret]

https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/statu ... 4657355778

Looks like absolute carnage

Moving vehicles into cities you don't occupy is a seriously bad idea

[Hibsclaret]

For simplicity

I don’t believe our government should actively encourage civilians to do what we are unable to let our trained troops do. That was my original point today following the Foreign secretary’s comments earlier.

The west should have been more prepared and be more switched on in dealing with this. Taking the Germans 4 days to decide on SWIFT and to send weapons is appalling. We should have a joint NATO agreed approach and we have been aware of the build up of Russian troops for months.

It is appalling that the Ukrainians are left asking for civilians from other countries to help them. This tells me our governments are not doing enough.

[Vegas Claret]

pretty obvious the Russian's don't want to be there when you see stuff like this
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1497 ... 7qFgaAQbQA

[Lancasterclaret]

https://twitter.com/DanLamothe/status/1 ... 8229179396

US Pentagon briefing on the situation in Ukraine

[FCBurnley]

Massive propaganda war on both sides. Two very corrupt countries imo. Read what you like but the vast majority of what you read on all sides will be false or at the best extremely twisted. Trust nobody is my advice Follow the money