It's not just about Brexit

[martin_p]

No, but it would have got through with their support. Instead they formed a coalition and sought to block May’s deal instead of working in the national interest. In the end, we ended up with something worse (according to some) which just underlines the stupidity of their behaviour throughout.

They voted with the current PM and leader of the house.

[NewClaret]

They voted with the current PM and leader of the house.

And in doing so, ended up with him. The irony.

Played right in to Tory hands in the most moronic way possible. Politically inept, of course, but arguably that ineptitude has cost the country a “better deal” (some would say). Boris could not have hoped for a better outcome.

[nil_desperandum]

No, but it would have got through with their support. Instead they formed a coalition and sought to block May’s deal instead of working in the national interest. In the end, we ended up with something worse (according to some) which just underlines the stupidity of their behaviour throughout.

You could argue that, but Labour was pretty consistent all along in saying that they wanted to be closer to the EU in terms of the Customs Union in order to save jobs etc. If May had budged a bit on that, then it would probably have passed with Labour support.
The fact is however, it was a deal brokered by a Tory PM, and they had the votes, (in coalition with the DUP) to get it through. You really can't pin the blame for it not passing on Labour.
In the end Johnson got pretty much the same Bill through by effectively excluding NI from the Customs rules. Something which the EU would gladly have written into the original "May" agreement, but something that the Conservative and UNIONIST Party said they would never agree to.

[AndrewJB]

No, but it would have got through with their support. Instead they formed a coalition and sought to block May’s deal instead of working in the national interest. In the end, we ended up with something worse (according to some) which just underlines the stupidity of their behaviour throughout.

We ended up with something worse because the government negotiated something worse, and then voted for it. How crap is that?

[NewClaret]

We ended up with something worse because the government negotiated something worse, and then voted for it. How crap is that?

The House votes, not the Government.

The House had the option to vote through Mays deal, negotiated by a moderate Tory MP and remainer. In doing so, 3 times, the House forced her to resign knowing full well the next Tory leader would be a Brexiteer and a GE was likely, with the possibility that said Brexiteer would win a larger majority and pass a worse deal. In the end, it was a gamble they lost and many wish they hadn’t taken.

[AlargeClaret]

Labour didn’t have the ability to block it, they didn’t have enough MPs.

I think just for clarity you should point out that the SNP and liberals were always gonna block it as well .

[NewClaret]

I think just for clarity you should point out that the SNP and liberals were always gonna block it as well .

Exactly right, so only Labour could support it and get it through (since they were supposedly not directly opposed to Brexit at the time).

[AndrewJB]

The House votes, not the Government.

The House had the option to vote through Mays deal, negotiated by a moderate Tory MP and remainer. In doing so, 3 times, the House forced her to resign knowing full well the next Tory leader would be a Brexiteer and a GE was likely, with the possibility that said Brexiteer would win a larger majority and pass a worse deal. In the end, it was a gamble they lost and many wish they hadn’t taken.

The government negotiated the crap deal. And the even crapper deal afterward.

Ten years of Tory rule, and we are in a far far worse place right now than we were ten years ago. They have looted the country for the benefit of their rich donors, and continue to do so.

[nil_desperandum]

Exactly right, so only Labour could support it and get it through (since they were supposedly not directly opposed to Brexit at the time).

Incorrect. Not only Labour.
You conveniently forgot to include the goverment themselves. It was a government bill and they had the numbers to pass it. It was always likely that the opposition would propose amendments - it's their role in Parliament.

[Spijed]

It was Jo Swinson, the most inept politician there has ever been (that's being charitable) who got ideas way above her station and ultimately allowed the government to call an election.

[NewClaret]

Incorrect. Not only Labour.
You conveniently forgot to include the goverment themselves. It was a government bill and they had the numbers to pass it. It was always likely that the opposition would propose amendments - it's their role in Parliament.

Basically, May (remainer, moderate) designed a deal intended to appeal to the moderates across the House.

The ERG would never back it, since they wanted a hard brexit, and the SNP/Lib Dems would never back it because they directly opposed Brexit altogether.

So, it was down to the moderates from the two main parties to back it. The Tory moderates did, the Labour moderates didn’t (in sufficient numbers), so we ended up with something far worse (according to some). Pretty simple, really.

[AndrewJB]

Basically, May (remainer, moderate) designed a deal intended to appeal to the moderates across the House.

The ERG would never back it, since they wanted a hard brexit, and the SNP/Lib Dems would never back it because they directly opposed Brexit altogether.

So, it was down to the moderates from the two main parties to back it. The Tory moderates did, the Labour moderates didn’t (in sufficient numbers), so we ended up with something far worse (according to some). Pretty simple, really.

Labour wanted us to remain in the single market. May’s deal took us out of it. Hers was a crap deal. Why would they have supported it?

Again, we are where we are because of a decade of Tory government.

The deal is far worse according to many Tories who voted for it, and then only read the fine print afterwards. “Oven ready” was just another Johnson lie. At what point will Tories like you realise what a danger Johnson is to our country?

[nil_desperandum]

Basically, May (remainer, moderate) designed a deal intended to appeal to the moderates across the House.

How could it possibly appeal to the "moderates across the house" when it took us out of both the Customs Union and Single Market?
Aligning to a greater or lesser extent with these was a red-line for moderates in all parties.

[NewClaret]

Labour wanted us to remain in the single market. May’s deal took us out of it. Hers was a crap deal. Why would they have supported it?

Again, we are where we are because of a decade of Tory government.

Perhaps because, though it might not have been their ideal deal, it would likely be the most moderate

First, they had to accept Brexit was happening. They failed to do that. Then they had to understand it would be a deal proposed by a Tory PM, not them, following a GE. Again, they failed to work that out. Had they done, they’d have realised May’s deal was better than the alternatives (still a potential hard brexit on the cards) and voted it through.

You hate the Tories, and so understandably lay all the blame at their door, but make no mistake Labours ineptude has played a huge part in being “where we are”. To argue otherwise just ignores the same truths that saw them walloped at the last GE.

[Burnley Ace]

How could it possibly appeal to the "moderates across the house" when it took us out of both the Customs Union and Single Market?
Aligning to a greater or lesser extent with these was a red-line for moderates in all parties.

Because moderates had to accept (or should have accepted) that Leave won and staying in both the CU and SM, accepting all the rules that go with it, isn’t leaving the EU.

[Devils_Advocate]

Because moderates had to accept (or should have accepted) that Leave won and staying in both the CU and SM, accepting all the rules that go with it, isn’t leaving the EU.

[NewClaret]

How could it possibly appeal to the "moderates across the house" when it took us out of both the Customs Union and Single Market?
Aligning to a greater or lesser extent with these was a red-line for moderates in all parties.

Because to do either would have had conditions attached that meant Brexit was not achieved and the referendum result not respected. In this sense, the EU could have been more helpful, but like Labour, chose not to compromise or see the bigger picture.

I go back to my point - had Labour accepted Brexit was happening, they had the chance to accept Mays deal. It may not have ticked all their boxes, even most of them, but I’d bet it ticks more than the current deal and certainly a hard Brexit. They ignored those realities, pursued a different path and came unstuck. They can’t absolve themselves from responsibility for ending up “where we are”.

[AndrewJB]

Perhaps because, though it might not have been their ideal deal, it would likely be the most moderate

First, they had to accept Brexit was happening. They failed to do that. Then they had to understand it would be a deal proposed by a Tory PM, not them, following a GE. Again, they failed to work that out. Had they done, they’d have realised May’s deal was better than the alternatives (still a potential hard brexit on the cards) and voted it through.

You hate the Tories, and so understandably lay all the blame at their door, but make no mistake Labours ineptude has played a huge part in being “where we are”. To argue otherwise just ignores the same truths that saw them walloped at the last GE.

It doesn’t matter what I think of the Tories. They have been in power for ten years. They have made all the decisions that have brought us to where we are. I’m happy to look at your evidence.

[NewClaret]

It doesn’t matter what I think of the Tories. They have been in power for ten years. They have made all the decisions that have brought us to where we are. I’m happy to look at your evidence.

So basically you’re saying that Labour have been an irrelevance for the last 10 years?

[AndrewJB]

Because to do either would have had conditions attached that meant Brexit was not achieved and the referendum result not respected. In this sense, the EU could have been more helpful, but like Labour, chose not to compromise or see the bigger picture.

I go back to my point - had Labour accepted Brexit was happening, they had the chance to accept Mays deal. It may not have ticked all their boxes, even most of them, but I’d bet it ticks more than the current deal and certainly a hard Brexit. They ignored those realities, pursued a different path and came unstuck. They can’t absolve themselves from responsibility for ending up “where we are”.

The vote to leave was not predicated on us leaving the single market or customs union. There was no cohesive vision of what Leave would look like. Therefore it was entirely in keeping with the vote to leave the EU but remain closely tied.

[RMutt]

It beggars belief that anyone can blame Labour for the current situation when the Tories have had a majority in Parliament throughout the whole negotiating period. Look to your own house to blame ERG etc.

[AndrewJB]

So basically you’re saying that Labour have been an irrelevance for the last 10 years?

I haven’t said any party has been an irrelevance, but that the Tory Party has been in power and the direction we’ve travelled in is due to their decisions. I’m open to be shown otherwise if you can tell me how Labour has had a hand in decision making.

[clarethomer]

Labour wanted more alignment with the single market

Their voters didn't

They went into an election without still being able to articulate a view that represented their voter base and got punished for it.

Whether you agree with the direction of travel - the rot that exists within labour given the influence of momentum and the far left, meant that they could not represent their core voters.

If they had done that, it is my belief that we would all be in a better place in terms of brexit. New claret has it spot on in my opinion with the politicians and game playing being influential on where we are today.

There was no cohesive position on brexit - the last election sorted that. It wasn't labours vision end of.

[NewClaret]

It beggars belief that anyone can blame Labour for the current situation when the Tories have had a majority in Parliament throughout the whole negotiating period. Look to your own house to blame ERG etc.

Agree the ERG are to blame for Mays deal not passing. But on that basis, you can’t blame 21 Tories when 200+ Labour MP’s - with 10x the influence in the house - could have stopped the ERG getting their way.

ERG, Swinson, Sturgeon and Labour all pursued their own path, driven by their own agenda’s, to block it. They can’t absolve themselves of responsibility for it not getting passed.

In the end, the only winners were the ERG, as it happens, who will prefer the new deal and prospect of hard Brexit much more than Mays deal.

[AndrewJB]

Labour wanted more alignment with the single market

Their voters didn't

They went into an election without still being able to articulate a view that represented their voter base and got punished for it.

Whether you agree with the direction of travel - the rot that exists within labour given the influence of momentum and the far left, meant that they could not represent their core voters.

If they had done that, it is my belief that we would all be in a better place in terms of brexit. New claret has it spot on in my opinion with the politicians and game playing being influential on where we are today.

There was no cohesive position on brexit - the last election sorted that. It wasn't labours vision end of.

Labour voters voted remain by a nearly two to one majority, and there was plenty in the manifesto for core voters. A handful just had their heads turned, as you appear to have. “Oven ready deal”

[KateR]

It beggars belief that anyone can blame Labour for the current situation when the Tories have had a majority in Parliament throughout the whole negotiating period. Look to your own house to blame ERG etc.

this is exactly the point some people are making, when you can't see the big picture and accept that Labour and others had a hand in where we are today then it is impossible to debate/discuss. It is the same with anyone who puts fingers in ears, shakes head, eyes closed and continues to say no, no, no over and over again.

However it is not a problem, as always there will be people who have firm opinions that are unshakable, but it does not alter the fact, May's deal was useless the HoC made sure of that, that in and of it'self lead to voting for a new PM, BJ won, thank you HoC, he says. Try again, no nothing is going to work, Labour and others have a strategy that means to break a deadlock they agreed to go to a GE, they didn't need to, thank you Labour (in this instance it needed Labour to happen). LibDems/SNP all chomping at the bit to show those pesky Tories. Well they did for sure and the roadmap of failed strategies litters the last few years because they were unable to predict the future voters, the country spoke and you, me, everyone is stuck with it for a while. We all heard JC saying how he could easily negotiate with the EU and get a good deal, well unfortunately he never got a chance, or fortunately depending on which side of the fence you sit on.

For anyone who believes Labour were not complicit in the events of the last few years that's ok, but please let other people have there perception of events, it's these kind of beliefs that will ensure Labour never get elect. However, I think Sir KS also sees Labour's failure and is intent on making sure that it doesn't happen again to the best of his ability.

[clarethomer]

ERG, Swinson, Sturgeon and Labour all pursued their own path, driven by their own agenda’s, to block it. They can’t absolve themselves of responsibility for it not getting passed.

It's this point that appeared to annoy everyone - it was their own path not the path of their voters/constituents. You would have politicians who were elected in areas that voted majority of leave. Yet, they claimed they didn't think the people that voted leave in their area wanted the leave that was being offered.

It became party politics with politicians thinking they knew better. It became each party trying to focus on their positioning rather than anything else.

[NewClaret]

I haven’t said any party has been an irrelevance, but that the Tory Party has been in power and the direction we’ve travelled in is due to their decisions. I’m open to be shown otherwise if you can tell me how Labour has had a hand in decision making.

Because they have the second most MPs in the House thus the most influence of the opposition parties. They operated in a hung parliament throughout the lions share of the negotiations and screwed it up every step of the way, pursuing their own agenda instead of cracking on in the national interest.

They’ve either formed a completely ineffective opposition or they must share some of the responsibility for the outcome. As a Labour supporter I’d rather see them take some responsibility for where we’ve ended up than accept we’d been ineffective and irrelevant.

Maybe we should just not have an opposition if they have no influence whatsoever?

[AndrewJB]

Agree the ERG are to blame for Mays deal not passing. But on that basis, you can’t blame 21 Tories when 200+ Labour MP’s - with 10x the influence in the house - could have stopped the ERG getting their way.

ERG, Swinson, Sturgeon and Labour all pursued their own path, driven by their own agenda’s, to block it. They can’t absolve themselves of responsibility for it not getting passed.

In the end, the only winners were the ERG, as it happens, who will prefer the new deal and prospect of hard Brexit much more than Mays deal.

Had May conferred with other parties, and the wider public, and gained a consensus for what Brexit was to look like, then she would have got a deal through Parliament. That’s more reasonable than expecting opposition parties to vote for something they see as deeply flawed.

[clarethomer]

Labour voters voted remain by a nearly two to one majority, and there was plenty in the manifesto for core voters. A handful just had their heads turned, as you appear to have. “Oven ready deal”

I believe this is a labour biased website- https://labourlist.org/2020/06/who-labo ... 9-and-why/

We found that the three main factors behind Labour’s losses were antipathy to the leadership (often associated with perceptions of weakness or incompetence, a shift to the far-left and/or antisemitism); Brexit-driven switching; and concerns about the affordability or credibility of the manifesto (although individual policies were mostly quite well supported). These three factors were interwoven, but the leadership factor was the most significant and consistent across all groups. Tragically, even many of the 2017 voters Labour hung onto in 2019 disliked Jeremy Corbyn by the end.

I rest my case

1 - The rot of the far left and momentum.

2- Brexit

3 -Poor leadership - couldn't articulate what they were offering.

[NewClaret]

The vote to leave was not predicated on us leaving the single market or customs union. There was no cohesive vision of what Leave would look like. Therefore it was entirely in keeping with the vote to leave the EU but remain closely tied.

Exactly right - there was no cohesive vision for leave. Why? Because it was always going to be a negotiation between two parties and therefore nobody could ever predict how those negotiations would conclude at the point of the referendum.

It was always going to be a deal negotiated by a Tory PM. Labour knew that, had a moderate, remaining Tory MP in seat, but instead of acting in a grown up fashion passing a deal she proposed (after 3 rounds of concessions), obstructed it to pursue their own agenda and ended up with a worse (you argue).

Stupidity or incompetence? Both. The voters decided.

[RMutt]

KateR. You should be directing your ire at the Tories who voted down the options. You and others are happy to blame Labour but not the dissenters in your own ranks.

[Devils_Advocate]

The public voted 52-48 and the Leave campaing focused heavily on not exiting the Single Market. A democratic govt respecting a 52-48 vote would have worked cross party in Parliament but May just shut out everyone else and looked to appease the extreme view of a hard brexit rather than the moderate view that would have reflected democracy

Blaming Labour MPs for not playing Russian roulette with the principles of democracy to vote for something that was total flawed and against what was campaigned and voted for for fear of getting something worse is a ridiculous notion and one that makes a few of you on here come across a bit thick

If you had a choice of voting in favour of Bin Laden then doing so on fear you might get Hitler instead is not what I want from my politicians. Id rather they'd fight for something better than both even if they ultimate lose because the cretins have the majority

[AndrewJB]

I believe this is a labour biased website- https://labourlist.org/2020/06/who-labo ... 9-and-why/



I rest my case

1 - The rot of the far left and momentum.

2- Brexit

3 -Poor leadership - couldn't articulate what they were offering.

Perceptions, fed by near constant attacks in the media, and from a few people within the Labour Party. Johnson wouldn’t be PM today if he was attacked only half as much.

I think you’re so brexit blinkered you miss the fact that two thirds of Labour voters voted Remain. Labour had to balance pleasing them with pleasing those who voted leave. The policy wasn’t that hard to understand. Get a better deal, and put it to referendum.

[NewClaret]

The public voted 52-48 and the Leave campaing focused heavily on not exiting the Single Market. A democratic govt respecting a 52-48 vote would have worked cross party in Parliament but May just shut out everyone else and looked to appease the extreme view of a hard brexit rather than the moderate view that would have reflected democracy

Blaming Labour MPs for not playing Russian roulette with the principles of democracy to vote for something that was total flawed and against what was campaigned and voted for for fear of getting something worse is a ridiculous notion and one that makes a few of you on here come across a bit thick

If you had a choice of voting in favour of Bin Laden then doing so on fear you might get Hitler instead is not what I want from my politicians. Id rather they'd fight for something better than both even if they ultimate lose because the cretins have the majority

If all this was true, why did they get battered at the subsequent GE when the people had their say?

[martin_p]

I think just for clarity you should point out that the SNP and liberals were always gonna block it as well .

Happy to add them in. Still not enough votes though.

[KateR]

KateR. You should be directing your ire at the Tories who voted down the options. You and others are happy to blame Labour but not the dissenters in your own ranks.

I'm sorry but that simply is not true, of course there are Tories to blame and I mentioned the 17 who left previously and also about where are they now, also I have no ire to direct, that is just a pointless exercise.

I am not laying all the blame or even the majority of blame at Labour or anyone else, of course it was Tory led, the only thing I am trying to say is that Labour are not blameless as some seem convinced as to where we are today. I also think it is fairly futile trying to lay blame, as it is what it is and one has to hope that when the dust settles, it is not as bad as many fear.

[Devils_Advocate]

If all this was true, why did they get battered at the subsequent GE when the people had their say?

Cos this was 3 years later when the division created by Brexit and the govts approach had completely ripped the country apart to a point that truth, compromise and working together is a thing of the past

I stated on here that the 2019 election has given Johnson and his voters a mandate from this point onwards to pursue the Brexit they are doing. My only caveat is that this govt and its voters totally own any mess that comes from it and dont start blaming Remainers, the EU or Labour.

May and the Tories ruined any chance of a unified and sensible Brexit and forced the country down a path of tribalism and hate. No doubt the political right has won this subsequent battle but at what cost we will have to wait and see. If it goes well then they can rub it in my face and gloat but if it becomes a sh*t show then they need to take responsibility and own it

[AndrewJB]

Exactly right - there was no cohesive vision for leave. Why? Because it was always going to be a negotiation between two parties and therefore nobody could ever predict how those negotiations would conclude at the point of the referendum.

It was always going to be a deal negotiated by a Tory PM. Labour knew that, had a moderate, remaining Tory MP in seat, but instead of acting in a grown up fashion passing a deal she proposed (after 3 rounds of concessions), obstructed it to pursue their own agenda and ended up with a worse (you argue).

Stupidity or incompetence? Both. The voters decided.

The voters were certainly fed a turd there. “Oven ready deal”

[AndrewJB]

this is exactly the point some people are making, when you can't see the big picture and accept that Labour and others had a hand in where we are today then it is impossible to debate/discuss. It is the same with anyone who puts fingers in ears, shakes head, eyes closed and continues to say no, no, no over and over again.

However it is not a problem, as always there will be people who have firm opinions that are unshakable, but it does not alter the fact, May's deal was useless the HoC made sure of that, that in and of it'self lead to voting for a new PM, BJ won, thank you HoC, he says. Try again, no nothing is going to work, Labour and others have a strategy that means to break a deadlock they agreed to go to a GE, they didn't need to, thank you Labour (in this instance it needed Labour to happen). LibDems/SNP all chomping at the bit to show those pesky Tories. Well they did for sure and the roadmap of failed strategies litters the last few years because they were unable to predict the future voters, the country spoke and you, me, everyone is stuck with it for a while. We all heard JC saying how he could easily negotiate with the EU and get a good deal, well unfortunately he never got a chance, or fortunately depending on which side of the fence you sit on.

For anyone who believes Labour were not complicit in the events of the last few years that's ok, but please let other people have there perception of events, it's these kind of beliefs that will ensure Labour never get elect. However, I think Sir KS also sees Labour's failure and is intent on making sure that it doesn't happen again to the best of his ability.

I’m happy to consider Labour responsible for the current situation, after you show me what they’ve done to help bring it about.

[NewClaret]

I’m happy to consider Labour responsible for the current situation, after you show me what they’ve done to help bring it about.

It’s more a discussion than a court case.

What sort of evidence are you looking for? A dossier? A smoking gun? Some WMD’s? (oh, sorry, it’s been proven they don’t exist).

[NewClaret]

The voters were certainly fed a turd there. “Oven ready deal”

You’re right, all the voters were thick. Fed lies by nasty Boris and the media, but unable to see past them.

[KateR]

I’m happy to consider Labour responsible for the current situation, after you show me what they’ve done to help bring it about.

Sorry Andrew but you are better than this, the evidence is there for the usual blind man on a galloping horse but if you chose to close your eyes and turn away, you can legitimately say, what, no, I didn't see that, and that's fine to.

[nil_desperandum]

If all this was true, why did they get battered at the subsequent GE when the people had their say?

Many reasons, but here are a few
1. It was a Labour party that was almost impossibly divided over brexit with many supporters (generally in the north) basically saying, I won't vote Labour unless you support a "hard brexit", and the other half saying I won't ever vote Labour again unless you stick to your universal principles and oppose brexit.
2. The referendum was a binary vote with leave winning by a pretty slim majority, whereas in a General Election you don't need anywhere near 50% of the vote to gain a healthy majority. The first past the post system divides the opposition to the Conservatives, and many get elected with well under 50% of the vote.
3. Labour were led by a hopeless, hapless and unelectable leader, who was vilified on a personal level by virtually all the media. (I've stated incidentally, that he was hapless and unelectable, but the press gave Johnson a "free pass" by comparison, considering his past history of incompetence, lying, mysogyny, and - in many people's view - racist comments)
4. The Conservatives were led by a "charismatic" leader who wasn't afraid to promise the electorate the earth if it got him elected. (The "oven ready deal" and his promises on social care being but two.) [Also see comparison in point 3 above]
Add to these of course the public's general fatigue with brexit wrangling, and the damage it was causing to both the economy and the spirit of the nation, a Conservative majority was always inevitable once the naive and inexperienced Jo Swinson pushed for one. In these cricumstances the empty phrase "Get it done" resonated with many.

[tiger76]

The public voted 52-48 and the Leave campaing focused heavily on not exiting the Single Market. A democratic govt respecting a 52-48 vote would have worked cross party in Parliament but May just shut out everyone else and looked to appease the extreme view of a hard brexit rather than the moderate view that would have reflected democracy

Blaming Labour MPs for not playing Russian roulette with the principles of democracy to vote for something that was total flawed and against what was campaigned and voted for for fear of getting something worse is a ridiculous notion and one that makes a few of you on here come across a bit thick

If you had a choice of voting in favour of Bin Laden then doing so on fear you might get Hitler instead is not what I want from my politicians. Id rather they'd fight for something better than both even if they ultimate lose because the cretins have the majority

Some good points DA, I entirely agree that this should been a cross party led negotiation, and that might have enabled us to come to come to a sensible agreement, which respected a tight result, I don't blame Labour as such, however it's worth pointing out that the HOC had several opportunities to vote for various amendments, including staying in the SM, and also having a 2nd referendum once the terms of any deal were known, and yet none of these motions passed, although some were very close to doing so, that was the time to reach across the house from Theresa May and secure support from the opposition benches, but alas she either couldn't or wouldn't do this, hence why we're in the malaise we are and facing the prospect of a hard brexit, which very few actually voted for in 2016.

The blame lies squarely with all the parties, however you are correct that now this BJ led government has a stonking majority of 80, anything from the end of 2019 and beyond is entirely their responsibility for better or worse, and if they c*ck it up, then they'll pay a heavy price at the next election, so the onus is on them to solve the problem and get a workable deal at the very least, I've given up on getting a good deal, it's all about damage limitation alas. That's a long way from the easiest trade deal in history, and the sunny uplands presented in 2016, and if it goes pear-shaped, I can easily see the UK (if the UK is still intact by then) re-joining soon after the next election, on what terms that would be is another matter entirely.

[NewClaret]

Many reasons, but here are a few
1. It was a Labour party that was almost impossibly divided over brexit with many supporters (generally in the north) basically saying, I won't vote Labour unless you support a "hard brexit", and the other half saying I won't ever vote Labour again unless you stick to your universal principles and oppose brexit.
2. The referendum was a binary vote with leave winning by a pretty slim majority, whereas in a General Election you don't need anywhere near 50% of the vote to gain a healthy majority. The first past the post system divides the opposition to the Conservatives, and many get elected with well under 50% of the vote.
3. Labour were led by a hopeless, hapless and unelectable leader, who was vilified on a personal level by virtually all the media. (I've stated incidentally, that he was hapless and unelectable, but the press gave Johnson a "free pass" by comparison, considering his past history of incompetence, lying, mysogyny, and - in many people's view - racist comments)
4. The Conservatives were led by a "charismatic" leader who wasn't afraid to promise the electorate the earth if it got him elected. (The "oven ready deal" and his promises on social care being but two.) [Also see comparison in point 3 above]
Add to these of course the public's general fatigue with brexit wrangling, and the damage it was causing to both the economy and the spirit of the nation, a Conservative majority was always inevitable once the naive and inexperienced Jo Swinson pushed for one. In these cricumstances the empty phrase "Get it done" resonated with many.

1. V true. Which is precisely why it should have backed Mays deal, and a moderate Tory leader, which (some say) was better than current and put the situation to bed vs. force a GE annihilation.

2. Also true but same rules for both sides.

3. No arguments there. Albeit I didn’t need the media to point out Boris’ failings - I knew them & still voted for him.

4. Boris promised the earth? Are you serious? Did you not read the Labour manifesto? Boris basically promised one thing - to get Brexit done.

[Devils_Advocate]

Some good points DA, I entirely agree that this should been a cross party led negotiation, and that might have enabled us to come to come to a sensible agreement, which respected a tight result, I don't blame Labour as such, however it's worth pointing out that the HOC had several opportunities to vote for various amendments, including staying in the SM, and also having a 2nd referendum once the terms of any deal were known, and yet none of these motions passed, although some were very close to doing so, that was the time to reach across the house from Theresa May and secure support from the opposition benches, but alas she either couldn't or wouldn't do this, hence why we're in the malaise we are and facing the prospect of a hard brexit, which very few actually voted for in 2016.

The blame lies squarely with all the parties, however you are correct that now this BJ led government has a stonking majority of 80, anything from the end of 2019 and beyond is entirely their responsibility for better or worse, and if they c*ck it up, then they'll pay a heavy price at the next election, so the onus is on them to solve the problem and get a workable deal at the very least, I've given up on getting a good deal, it's all about damage limitation alas. That's a long way from the easiest trade deal in history, and the sunny uplands presented in 2016, and if it goes pear-shaped, I can easily see the UK (if the UK is still intact by then) re-joining soon after the next election, on what terms that would be is another matter entirely.

A fair summary and in a proper nuanced good faith debate which is impossible on a footy forum they would be politicians right across the board I would attribute some level of blame to

However the level it is being being discussed to on here, then to try and shift the amount of blame onto Labour that is going on by some is imo a load of nonsense.

[nil_desperandum]

1. V true. Which is precisely why it should have backed Mays deal, and a moderate Tory leader, which (some say) was better than current and put the situation to bed vs. force a GE annihilation.

2. Also true but same rules for both sides.

3. No arguments there. Albeit I didn’t need the media to point out Boris’ failings - I knew them & still voted for him.

4. Boris promised the earth? Are you serious? Did you not read the Labour manifesto? Boris basically promised one thing - to get Brexit done.

Thanks. very reasonable responses, which you don't often get on here when someone expresses a contrary view.
In terms of promised the earth, both parties were offering what seemed at the time to be unrealistic spending plans, (though I'm sure you agree that in retrospect they pale into insignificance compared to what Sunak has been spending recently -(no criticism implied).
By the earth, I was more referring to Johnson's simplistic promises over Brexit, social care and other major issues, which are complex in the extreme, but he claimed he had simple and easy solutions that could be implemented pretty much overnight.

[clarethomer]

A fair summary and in a proper nuanced good faith debate which is impossible on a footy forum they would be politicians right across the board I would attribute some level of blame to

However the level it is being being discussed to on here, then to try and shift the amount of blame onto Labour that is going on by some is imo a load of nonsense.

In the same way that the amount of blame being placed on the tories without any acceptance that the place we have got to is because of all parties?

It's ripped the country apart and for every stubborn brexiteer, you have a stubborn remainer (although it does feel like they are more vocal at times).

The ERG and Momentum have driven divide into their parties and the bottom line was that it was parliaments ability to not accept the democratic vote and play politics resulted in the outcome of the last election.

I know labour voters who absolutely hate the way their party has gone and the way momentum and the far left have infected it. They used to be a working class party. Now it's just full of middle class, woke radicals who think the world should be a fluffy warm place where equality can be driven under a socialist agenda.

The leadership as a result was unable to articulate what they wanted and with a manifesto that was so radical, it was clear that Labour that once was, was no longer. Corbyn and the the far left movements that now drove the direction of the party were seen to no longer represent those people in the working class towns of the north.

The tories got the vote because the people had 3 years to judge the actions of the politicians following the referendum and given this time to articulate what they wanted. Leave meant leave... it was very simple.

Yet labour wouldn't answer the question on whether they supported leave. They were asked time and time again but couldn't answer. The trojan horse of labours policy probably became apparent for me when this happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSa2wvJ ... eTelegraph

To think you were going to tell the EU that we want the best deal you have got and we will then take it back for a vote with remain included. in what reality would that ever work for anyone who wanted to leave and was considering voting labour?

[Devils_Advocate]

In the same way that the amount of blame being placed on the tories without any acceptance that the place we have got to is because of all parties?

It's ripped the country apart and for every stubborn brexiteer, you have a stubborn remainer (although it does feel like they are more vocal at times).

The ERG and Momentum have driven divide into their parties and the bottom line was that it was parliaments ability to not accept the democratic vote and play politics resulted in the outcome of the last election.

I know labour voters who absolutely hate the way their party has gone and the way momentum and the far left have infected it. They used to be a working class party. Now it's just full of middle class, woke radicals who think the world should be a fluffy warm place where equality can be driven under a socialist agenda.

The leadership as a result was unable to articulate what they wanted and with a manifesto that was so radical, it was clear that Labour that once was, was no longer. Corbyn and the the far left movements that now drove the direction of the party were seen to no longer represent those people in the working class towns of the north.

The tories got the vote because the people had 3 years to judge the actions of the politicians following the referendum and given this time to articulate what they wanted. Leave meant leave... it was very simple.

Yet labour wouldn't answer the question on whether they supported leave. They were asked time and time again but couldn't answer. The trojan horse of labours policy probably became apparent for me when this happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSa2wvJ ... eTelegraph

To think you were going to tell the EU that we want the best deal you have got and we will then take it back for a vote with remain included. in what reality would that ever work for anyone who wanted to leave and was considering voting labour?

Are you seriously comparing the parliamentary power of the ERG to a grass roots political movement such as Momentum?

As I said in my previous there was a 52-48 split in favour of Leave that was campaigned on the easiest trade deal ever and remainging in the Single Market. The Tory's were in power and refused to work with Labour or the Libs and instead made themselves beholden to the extreme position of the ERG

Thats why the Tories and the ERG need to own this sh*t show and not try and blame small movements like Momentum. If you are gonna blame Momentum for dividing the Labour party you would be better looking at the lies and propaganda right wing groups, media and even politicians spread about the EU, Immigrants and Corbyn and you'll find thats what was more to blame for traditional Labour voters in the North believing they were better represented by people like Farrage and Tommy Robinson than they were by Corbyn and his policies

The political and social decline of this country has been caused by sheer disregard of truth and fact and that people prefer to stand behind a lie if it tells them what they want to hear and can help them win an argument regarless of if they are right or not. This change is a direct result of Trump, Putin and Brexit (vote Leave) and an incompetent, lazy sel-serving liar like Johnson winning an 80 seat majority is all the evidence you need of this