Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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KateR
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by KateR » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:28 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Because its very important we have trust in our politicians.

Johnson has zero trust from me, because of his past record on trust issues, be it Heathrow, the garden bridge, his decision to go for Brexit because it helped his career etc etc etc

I'm anti-Brexit, but I like to think I'm pretty fair.

I just don't see any circumstances in which Johnson is a good PM.

If you back Brexit above anything else, then yes, he might be the man to take us clean out of the EU, but he might also be the man who would do it a way that wrecks the UK in the process, and he'd do it if he thought it would save his career.

I'm very wary of people who use a lie when a truth or an apology is a perfectly reasonable way to go, and Johnson just dumbs down on the lie and keeps on going.
I appreciate your rationale, thank you.

I think no one will every know until much further down the line as to whether he turns out to be good bad or indifferent, that jury is definite out and I would never say he is good, I mean he only met the Queen July 24th, walked in to the greatest sh*t storm ever. Churchill had many failings before they made him PM, he did ok but once that event was passed he was quickly got rid of and it might well be the case for BJ. However my crystal ball is cloudy for that far ahead.

I am also wary of him and anyone who lies, however in this case I do believe he is trying to do what is best for those that voted leave and I think he genuinely believes it is better for the country. I simply can not see anyone else who could do it, so I am accepting these flaws, for me the alternatives are far more scary and long reaching than what BJ is trying to do.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:31 pm

aggi wrote:I wouldn't disagree with this. (Although we've seen potential issues with his private life impacting on his professional life in the past few weeks.)

However, the issue is that he's shown that he can't be trusted in policy as well.

His mayorship was full of promises that didn't happen. Or going back to when he was an MP, do you think Boris will be in front of the bulldozers when they come to build the third runway?

I know you made your mind up very early that you were going to believe what he said, regardless of anything to the contrary, but blind belief will only go so far.
What I said above to Lancs is that I choose not to believe him yet, he has to deliver. But I have spent the last few days questioning those who know him well (though I bottled asking his Dad when I saw him earlier). I have concluded that I am certain Boris is a true Brexiteer (long disputed), and that Boris is PROBABLY being honest about his need to rebalance the country because of his own core beliefs. I also think he is loyal to those who are loyal to him.

If Boris were on tonight’s Apprentice he would say “yes, you are certain to see the big 5” (in joke for those who saw it). So sometimes his promises fall down. But it is over optimism and desire to be liked, not lying.

To an extent I think his psychological weakness causes him to ignore those he falls out with and suck up to those who love him. Thus he is rallying Brexiteers and piling money into Brexiteer areas. That could go wrong and hopefully I am being too cynical but for now it is much needed so I will support (not trust) him to see.

claret_in_exile
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by claret_in_exile » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:33 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Because the backstop kept us in the EU Custom’s Union in essence, and prevented us from doing trade deals elsewhere (and also prevented us leaving of our own accord). It would have been harder to leave the backstop than to leave the EU in the first place.

The new proposal does none of those things, it allows us to strike independant deals around the world and gives Stormont the power to exit from the NI specific bits.
OK, that makes sense.

Except for the fact that the DUP will **** the bed if there's any sort of border or control between NI and GB and the IRA will **** the bed if Stormont decides to leave the NI-specific bits.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:35 pm

KateR wrote:I appreciate your rationale, thank you.

I think no one will every know until much further down the line as to whether he turns out to be good bad or indifferent, that jury is definite out and I would never say he is good, I mean he only met the Queen July 24th, walked in to the greatest sh*t storm ever. Churchill had many failings before they made him PM, he did ok but once that event was passed he was quickly got rid of and it might well be the case for BJ. However my crystal ball is cloudy for that far ahead.

I am also wary of him and anyone who lies, however in this case I do believe he is trying to do what is best for those that voted leave and I think he genuinely believes it is better for the country. I simply can not see anyone else who could do it, so I am accepting these flaws, for me the alternatives are far more scary and long reaching than what BJ is trying to do.
This is the thing, the alternatives are pretty easy to map for the foreseeable future.

What we are trying to do is absolutely a massive leap into the dark.

What would be sensible is a slow disentanglement from the EU, over a period of years with us preparing properly for each stage.

What we are almost certainly going to have if we leave is overnight chaos and a continuing failure to understand the reality of what we are doing.

Until Brexit politicians start to acknowledge reality, then the % of the population that wants to Brexit won't either, and people like me (who to the annoyance of many, is the Cassandra of the board) will worry about where that ends up.

All those people believing stuff about "sunlit uplands", "they need us more than we need them", "easiest deal in history"?

How are they going to react when they find out they have been lied to?

And then they will remember that the PM is a proven liar.

And then what?

Thats why I'm worried
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:37 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:What I said above to Lancs is that I choose not to believe him yet, he has to deliver. But I have spent the last few days questioning those who know him well (though I bottled asking his Dad when I saw him earlier). I have concluded that I am certain Boris is a true Brexiteer (long disputed), and that Boris is PROBABLY being honest about his need to rebalance the country because of his own core beliefs. I also think he is loyal to those who are loyal to him.

If Boris were on tonight’s Apprentice he would say “yes, you are certain to see the big 5” (in joke for those who saw it). So sometimes his promises fall down. But it is over optimism and desire to be liked, not lying.

To an extent I think his psychological weakness causes him to ignore those he falls out with and suck up to those who love him. Thus he is rallying Brexiteers and piling money into Brexiteer areas. That could go wrong and hopefully I am being too cynical but for now it is much needed so I will support (not trust) him to see.
He's putting money into Conservative marginals.

Again, we've been here before, but one of the reasons I didn't mind EU money being allocated was because it was being given to areas that needed it.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:38 pm

fidelcastro wrote:Very well. I shall point out that Boris has twice been sacked for lying, misled the Queen, unlawfully prorogued parliament and has not ruled out ignoring the law when it comes to 'no deal'.

Is that better?
There you go, I’ve corrected fidel’s post. It doesn’t look any better really does it.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:39 pm

martin_p wrote:There you go, I’ve corrected fidel’s post. It doesn’t look any better really does it.
It does because it's now correct, factually and legally.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:40 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I just don't see any circumstances in which Johnson is a good PM.
Leaving aside whether it will make him a good PM if he delivers his pledges on schools, hospitals and the living wage.....

I was in a room on Monday listening to Steve Baker speak (who is now on Newsnight). A nice guy, very open, honest. I think I recall he is a born again Christian or something like that. I don’t think lying is something he is capable of doing. Yes, he is a Brexiteer and ERG Chair but he is a decent man.

In that discussion, Baker told us he thinks Boris will be the best ever peacetime PM.

That’s quite a statement given Baker’s honesty and personality. With the greatest of respect I’m going to trust Baker’s judgement on this one.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:44 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:Leaving aside whether it will make him a good PM if he delivers his pledges on schools, hospitals and the living wage.....

I was in a room on Monday listening to Steve Baker speak (who is now on Newsnight). A nice guy, very open, honest. I think I recall he is a born again Christian or something like that. I don’t think lying is something he is capable of doing. Yes, he is a Brexiteer and ERG Chair but he is a decent man.

In that discussion, Baker told us he thinks Boris will be the best ever peacetime PM.

That’s quite a statement given Baker’s honesty and personality. With the greatest of respect I’m going to trust Baker’s judgement on this one.
I'd trust Steve Baker as far as I can throw him.

He lied throughout the referendum campaign, and has lied consistently since.

Look, I get that we are not going to agree on this so I'll make this my last comment on Johnston suitability for PM, but he took over from May, backed by the evangelical Brexiteers.

They want a Brexit that doesn't exist, and will stop at nothing to achieve it.

Johnston wanted to be PM so bad that he was prepared to go along with it, whatever the consequences.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:49 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:He's putting money into Conservative marginals.

Again, we've been here before, but one of the reasons I didn't mind EU money being allocated was because it was being given to areas that needed it.
I suspect that a minor chunk of the funding for schools, hospitals and the living wage will be in Tory marginals. All three of those will help poorer areas the most. Solid Labour seats mainly.

He’s trying to steal Corbyn’s thunder, sure, but not just in marginals.

I think he genuinely believes it is the right thing to do, and I think Javid is the same.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by fidelcastro » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:52 pm

Isn't Baker the one who's into MMA in his spare time?

He's always crossed me as rather odd.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:09 pm

KateR wrote:It is tiresome for the reasons I gave which you appear to have dismissed and asked again. If you state something/anything and the vast majority agree with you then why say it again and again on every page, is it you're trying to make a point and get people to agree with you, when they have already stated yes we agree. Or is it you're hoping some new reader comes along and disagrees so you can make the point yet again.

Either way it is tiresome, we understand, we get it that you do not like/trust BJ and are not willing to vote for him regardless of what he does for the country, good/bad or indifferent.

He has lied, yes he has, does he bluster, yes he does, I doubt that there are not many people who would disagree with this.

Will people still vote for him, the same people who just admitted to this, you had better believe it, which I know you do which is why you, the opposition, the EU and all remainers are also scared of him.

Therefore once again I ask, please stop making the same comments which have been accepted and come up with something new and preferably not some other form of muck spreading, show a better option to what he has offered, and why it is better, who is offering it?

I can understand any LibDem people jumping on this and saying, vote for us, revoke Article 50, remain, in the EU we trust and freely give up our country, it's a valid argument, not one likely to succeed but please provide something different in a way it can be digested and replied to sensibly.
It's funny. On this board over quite a few years I've found myself defending Corbyn against various attacks (despite belonging to a different party), and yet I've never used the; "oh, I'm so bored of this" defense - which I can only assume you mean by "tiresome". Deal with the issue. If his dishonesty isn't important, then explain why. It's not just me, but quite a few people on here are highlighting it, and we all have different political persuasions.

"You would be flouncing about in the shadowed lowlands, searching for gold, in a field of glitter-covered turds" - Guess who made that quote to who?

Johnson is a liar, and most people are looking for honest people to be in charge. Some people will just accept whatever he says as being the truth. Let's see who wins.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:40 pm

AndrewJB wrote:I don't think those who signed the GFA did so with the intention of creating a problem for Britain should we wish to leave the EU, however the GFA Is a reality, and one treated as incidental or of little importance during the referendum itself by advocates of leave when John Major and Tony Blair brought it up.

It's happened time and time again that the promises and claims made by the leave campaign, have ended up being wrong. Bear in mind this article was written several weeks before the actual vote, when a customs union or staying in the single market was considered a viable option - and doing that would alleviate the issues around the Northern Ireland border. But now, with the government not considering a CU, it's become the intractable problem leavers claimed was just scare mongering:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... ing-Brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hi Andrew, I'm confused. The express report you link quotes John Major as saying GFA and EU status are intertwined. Labour spokesman quoted also argues similarly that GFA requires EU membership (I hope I've not mis-quoted that last bit).

But, if it's not essential to maintain the GFA to also remain a member of the EU, then surely, whatever the issues are the two can be separated?

Let's put aside all the pre-referendum political arguments, whichever side we were all on that's all now "water under the bridge." It's the here and now and moving forward from here that needs to be resolved.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:57 pm

Let's put aside all the pre-referendum political arguments, whichever side we were all on that's all now "water under the bridge." It's the here and now and moving forward from here that needs to be resolved. - isn't that like someone talking to an older relative with memory loss?

The GFA is a real thing. You can try to say it's not, but that won't make it any less real.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:02 am

AndrewJB wrote:- I'm afraid austerity was real.
- I don't understand why you'd want to tie a governments hands by saying no more than forty percent of a person's income should be taxed away (is this in the Bible or something?). Already we do that, so people paying back student loans could be paying sixty percent out of their salaries - or are you going to lump that in with mortgage and credit card payments? It's like that 19th Century argument that property is sacrosanct. The argument has to be considered holistically. If I'm being taxed at 90% on my income over £1 Million, I might feel disappointed, but it's not going to kill me. At the other end of the spectrum, people do actually die as a result of public services being underfunded. Seven hundred deaths of homeless people in the last year, for example. From a moral standpoint - especially when you get into the stratosphere of wealth - there is no argument for people hanging on to more of what they've earned, when other people in the same country have a lot less. You can argue that these people don't care about anyone else, and are mobile - and I say there's nothing wrong with the country taking punitive measures against such people - deny them access to our markets (once we have our sovereignty back we can do this), tax their passports and foreign earnings, and I'm sure there are people with more able imaginations than I have that could come up with other incentives to get people to pay in.
- with multinational corporations the best way to prevent them avoiding tax is for countries to work together. I hope that even though we're leaving the EU, Britain works with the rest of the EU to accomplish this.
Andrew, Andrew, please, let's try and get away from your idea that a few people with high incomes are the cause of other people going hungry and worse, that you argue. Who says that it's the responsibility of people with high incomes to fund public services at any greater rate than anyone else? There are only a few people with "high incomes." There are lots and lots more with more moderate incomes and more still lower down the income scale - and yes, some with very little. You might as well argue that the people who are earning £1 million should be paying taxes of £10 million - which, of course, is nonsense. So, why not put a ceiling on taxes that is equal, as a percentage, for everyone the same; I pay 40% and you pay 40%, why not? Funding public services is not about a few wealthy people, it's about all of us.

You mention deaths of homeless people. I wish no one was living on the streets. How many of these are doing this because "public services are underfunded?" How many are doing it because they've got a drug issue or some other personal/social choice? How many are offered assistance, but decline to take the opportunities offered? Yes, I know some, maybe many, have mental health issues - and, maybe the health service let's them down. But, how many of these are a result of not taxing some people at 90%? Where do we go when we are taxing people as you propose, but people are still dying, homeless on the streets?

I do worry about your "socialism" that wants the UK to only look after people in the UK - except to work with other wealthy European nations to do this. Don't the people with real poverty in Africa, South America and Asia matter to people who "proclaim socialism?"

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:10 am

AndrewJB wrote:Let's put aside all the pre-referendum political arguments, whichever side we were all on that's all now "water under the bridge." It's the here and now and moving forward from here that needs to be resolved. - isn't that like someone talking to an older relative with memory loss?

The GFA is a real thing. You can try to say it's not, but that won't make it any less real.
I've no idea how to respond. Is it me who you think is suffering memory loss? or you....? or the other fella....? ;)

Yes, of course, the GFA is a "real thing." Who is saying it's not - certainly not me.

Let me try this: whatever was said by anyone and everyone before June 2016 is in the past. It can't be un-said. It doesn't need to be "un-said." But, it also doesn't provide us with the path to take from here.

Whatever we know, whatever we understand - and, yes, unfortunately, what we feel we know, but are actually mistaken, we still need to find a way forward from here.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndrewJB » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:20 am

Paul Waine wrote:Andrew, Andrew, please, let's try and get away from your idea that a few people with high incomes are the cause of other people going hungry and worse, that you argue. Who says that it's the responsibility of people with high incomes to fund public services at any greater rate than anyone else? There are only a few people with "high incomes." There are lots and lots more with more moderate incomes and more still lower down the income scale - and yes, some with very little. You might as well argue that the people who are earning £1 million should be paying taxes of £10 million - which, of course, is nonsense. So, why not put a ceiling on taxes that is equal, as a percentage, for everyone the same; I pay 40% and you pay 40%, why not? Funding public services is not about a few wealthy people, it's about all of us.

You mention deaths of homeless people. I wish no one was living on the streets. How many of these are doing this because "public services are underfunded?" How many are doing it because they've got a drug issue or some other personal/social choice? How many are offered assistance, but decline to take the opportunities offered? Yes, I know some, maybe many, have mental health issues - and, maybe the health service let's them down. But, how many of these are a result of not taxing some people at 90%? Where do we go when we are taxing people as you propose, but people are still dying, homeless on the streets?

I do worry about your "socialism" that wants the UK to only look after people in the UK - except to work with other wealthy European nations to do this. Don't the people with real poverty in Africa, South America and Asia matter to people who "proclaim socialism?"
I'm glad you understand I'd like to see poverty eradicated all over the world, and I'm glad you understand I have the pragmatism to see that it should be worked at locally first.

The rest of your post struggles to make a point - too ashamed perhaps to admit you support Greed.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by aggi » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:26 am

CrosspoolClarets wrote:What I said above to Lancs is that I choose not to believe him yet, he has to deliver. But I have spent the last few days questioning those who know him well (though I bottled asking his Dad when I saw him earlier). I have concluded that I am certain Boris is a true Brexiteer (long disputed), and that Boris is PROBABLY being honest about his need to rebalance the country because of his own core beliefs. I also think he is loyal to those who are loyal to him.

If Boris were on tonight’s Apprentice he would say “yes, you are certain to see the big 5” (in joke for those who saw it). So sometimes his promises fall down. But it is over optimism and desire to be liked, not lying.

To an extent I think his psychological weakness causes him to ignore those he falls out with and suck up to those who love him. Thus he is rallying Brexiteers and piling money into Brexiteer areas. That could go wrong and hopefully I am being too cynical but for now it is much needed so I will support (not trust) him to see.
We shall see, I don't think a load of Brexit-supporting MPs supporting Johnson is really a convincing argument but I doubt we're going to convince each other.

I think piling money is a bit of an exaggeration. The amounts involved (was it £90m to 60+ places with a chunk going to Coventry) were pretty minimal even if they made good headlines.

I can understand the allure. I've voted for Johnson in the past and even for a while when he was in charge he looked convincing. When his achievements were compared to his promises in the cold light of day however it turned out that he was mainly bluster and very little substance. He has a track record of saying what is easiest, over-promising and failing and there doesn't seem to be any evidence that is going to change.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:30 am

AndrewJB wrote:I'm glad you understand I'd like to see poverty eradicated all over the world, and I'm glad you understand I have the pragmatism to see that it should be worked at locally first.

The rest of your post struggles to make a point - too ashamed perhaps to admit you support Greed.
I don't get it. You want to end relative poverty in the UK - and you claim it's "pragmatism" to start there, rather than tackle real poverty through the rest of the world? How many are you prepared to leave to die in these other countries?

You know, I think it's you that's got a "greedy" approach. You have the greed of wanting someone else's money to solve your problems. You don't appear to want them to retain a reasonable share of their own earnings, and allow them to contribute to tackling poverty in countries that don't appear to count in your socialist world.

Enough. We know how socialism ends - and it's never good.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:46 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:He's a multiple proven liar.

Lancs, your being very selective. Not that I don’t disagree he is a liar.

They all are.

Swinson’s Biggest, we will abolish student loans, then tripled them.

Corbyn, there’s loads.

Time to go to work.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:52 am

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Swinson’s Biggest, we will abolish student loans, then tripled them.
Lol. what?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:05 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:Lol. what?
It must be right, he posted graphs and stuff the other day.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:21 am

Lowbankclaret wrote:Lancs, your being very selective. Not that I don’t disagree he is a liar.

They all are.

Swinson’s Biggest, we will abolish student loans, then tripled them.

Corbyn, there’s loads.

Time to go to work.
Well

Johnston is guilty of actually being in charge of stuff and then being a proven liar.

You have to get that he's not going to change just because you back him don't you?

Backing Brexit means you lot just accept him being a liar, which is well weird

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:53 am

Murger wrote:Image

Dynamite if there's owt in it.
More proof that this government is prepared to lie through its teeth.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... 1570027894

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:00 am

martin_p wrote:More proof that this government is prepared to lie through its teeth.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... 1570027894
It seems like the more BoJo lies and the more those around him lie that the more support he receives from those who no longer care when our politicians lie to us. It's British Trumpism.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:20 am

Hoping for a lot more analysis of these proposals today because frankly I'm lost with them.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:38 am

Anybody see Richard Burgon on Peston last night? Even the robotic we need a people's vote Wolleston tied him in knots. He was in total denial about Labour's difficulties in trying to get BJ out. His face said what he dare not.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Right_winger » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:54 am

Imploding Turtle wrote:It seems like the more BoJo lies and the more those around him lie that the more support he receives from those who no longer care when our politicians lie to us. It's British Trumpism.
The fact is those on the more liberal/left side of the scale are utterly desperate that they resort to smear campaigns because their own arguments no longer stand up to the people.

Politicians who lie shock horror.. every single one of them lie. The worst era being the new labour under Blair with his spin and sleaze.

As you were.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:55 am

summitclaret wrote:Anybody see Richard Burgon on Peston last night? Even the robotic we need a people's vote Wolleston tied him in knots. He was in total denial about Labour's difficulties in trying to get BJ out. His face said what he dare not.
One question you've avoided is what happens if we end up with another hung parliament after the next GE?

Should we just keep going every few months?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:58 am

Right_winger wrote:The fact is those on the more liberal/left side of the scale are utterly desperate that they resort to smear campaigns because their own arguments no longer stand up to the people.

Politicians who lie shock horror.. every single one of them lie. The worst era being the new labour under Blair with his spin and sleaze.

As you were.
If you want a textbook smear campaign look at the front of last weekends Mail on Sunday a few posts above. This is a smear campaign coming straight from Number 10.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:09 am

Spijed wrote:One question you've avoided is what happens if we end up with another hung parliament after the next GE?

Should we just keep going every few months?
I answered it yesterday. It might have to end up in a referendum but the Supreme Court would end up setting the question because the HOC would never agree a fair one.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:16 am

Right_winger wrote:The fact is those on the more liberal/left side of the scale are utterly desperate that they resort to smear campaigns because their own arguments no longer stand up to the people.

Politicians who lie shock horror.. every single one of them lie. The worst era being the new labour under Blair with his spin and sleaze.

As you were.

See what I means? This clown thinks that it's the left who are the ones who resort to smear campaigns the most. He also no doubt thinks that Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser, a communist, someone who hates Britain, a national security threat, and any number of other widely coordinated smear campaigns from the right. He also supports Brexit so much that he thinks anyone who opposes the most catastrophic of Brexit scenarios is anti-democracy.

The ******* gaul this guy has to accuse others of smear campaigns when the politicians he supports ONLY campaign strategy is to slime their opposition ias anti-British, anti-democracy, anti-white, anti-working class, anti-freedom etc is ******* stunning. Absolutely no self-awareness whatsoever.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:17 am

summitclaret wrote:I answered it yesterday. It might have to end up in a referendum but the Supreme Court would end up setting the question because the HOC would never agree a fair one.
No chance the Supreme Court would do that.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:27 am

I'm not exactly sure what legal process exists that summitclaret thinks can lead to the supreme court setting a referendum question.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:28 am

summitclaret wrote:Anybody see Richard Burgon on Peston last night? Even the robotic we need a people's vote Wolleston tied him in knots. He was in total denial about Labour's difficulties in trying to get BJ out. His face said what he dare not.
Yes I did and I thought he was absolutely atrocious and if he was my local MP I would struggle to vote for him if he represented the party I wholeheartedly was backing.

On the other hand I thought Mel Onn came across well like a of the hard working labour backbenchers. Also whenever I see any hard right Tory's, Brexit Party MEPs or any commentator from the hard right of the Brexit debate they too come across as absolute horrors.

What I dont get is whilst I can look at Richard Burgon and see how horrendous he is why a lot of the Brexiteers cannot see any fault in these terrible people they support. I can only put it down that whilst I have an opinion on what I would like to happen it doesn't influence my view of good and bad or right and wrong whereas there seems to be a large part of the population who as long as someone is on their side trying to get them what they want they not only turn a blind eye but actually act as deniers and apologists for them
Last edited by Devils_Advocate on Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:29 am

It would have to because any biased question would be challenged especially one with 3 options in a single question. Any such question would be seen as an attempt to fix the outcome.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:30 am

Still not sure it would be involved.

What would you consider a "biased question" just so we know?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:30 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Yes I did and I thought he was absolutely atrocious and if he was my local MP I would struggle to vote for him if he represented the party I wholeheartedly was backing.

On the other hand I thought Mel Onn came across well like a of the hard working labour backbenchers. Also whenever I see any hard right Tory's, Brexit Party MEPs or any commentator from the hard right of the Brexit debate they too come across as absolute horrors.

What I dont get is whilst I can look at Richard Burgon and see how horrendous is why a lot of the Brexiteers cannot see any fault in these terrible people they support. I can only put it down that whilst I have an opinion on what I would like to happen it doesn't influence my view of good and bad or right and wrong whereas there seems to be a large part of the population who as long as someone is on their side trying to get them what they want they not only turn a blind eye but actually act as deniers and apologists for them

Melanie is both sound and brave

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Imploding Turtle » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:31 am

summitclaret wrote:It would have to because any biased question would be challenged especially one with 3 options in a single question. Any such question would be seen as an attempt to fix the outcome.
What do you think the Supreme Court's job is?

If parliament votes for referendum legislation then they have decided what the question is. Whether the question is fair or not is not something the supreme court decides. The ONLY thing they decide is the legality of the process that led to the question being set.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:43 am

summitclaret wrote:I answered it yesterday. It might have to end up in a referendum but the Supreme Court would end up setting the question because the HOC would never agree a fair one.
What's the Electoral Commission for? I doubt the Supreme Court would bring their impartiality into question

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:48 am

summitclaret wrote:It would have to because any biased question would be challenged especially one with 3 options in a single question. Any such question would be seen as an attempt to fix the outcome.
If they had three options then they’d ask for first, second and third choices on the ballot paper.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:51 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Still not sure it would be involved.

What would you consider a "biased question" just so we know?
Anything that had 2 options that are purported to be leave and one option that is remain and vice-versa.

Also anything that had May's failed deal as an option.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by AndyClaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:53 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:Hoping for a lot more analysis of these proposals today because frankly I'm lost with them.
Your mate Peter Foster just been on Sky News, said that the EU are hoping the Benn act saves them so why bother negotiating, i guess the mail on sunday was right, British MP's colluding with the EU to stop us getting a good deal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:56 am

Some people clearly don't understand how referendums and PR elections work in other countries with 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice options, STV and other systems to ensure fairness.
Last edited by nil_desperandum on Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:56 am

AndyClaret wrote:Your mate Peter Foster just been on Sky News, said that the EU are hoping the Benn act saves them so why bother negotiating, i guess the mail on sunday was right, British MP's colluding with the EU to stop us getting a good deal.
Well, it all depends on your point of view!

We've been here before.

The deal promised in 2016 is impossible with the UK red lines, so we'd get a worse deal straight away.

That was pointed out by people like me in 2016, in 2017, in 2018, in 2019..........

What is worth mentioning though is this deal would have been called a surrender document in 2016, in 2017, in 2018 and the early part of 2019 by the very same people who are lauding it now as Johnsons genius.

They know this is Brexits last chance, which is why they are all backing it.
Last edited by Lancasterclaret on Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:56 am

summitclaret wrote:Anything that had 2 options that are purported to be leave and one option that is remain and vice-versa.

Also anything that had May's failed deal as an option.
Yes, but as I said, if there were more than two options you’d either mark preferences or they’d essentially ask two questions 1) do you want to leave or remain 2) if we do leave would you want to leave with no deal or a specific deal.

You don’t need the Supreme Court to rule on whether choosing a single option from three (where two are leave and one remain or vice versa) just a basic grasp of mathematics!

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Erasmus » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:59 am

To Paul Waine, I found the arguments you presented last night bizarre. It seemed like you were claiming that wanting greater distribution of wealth for the benefit of the poorest people is 'greed'. How does this work when some of that redistribution is coming from myself and others as we pay higher taxes? I would like my own tax payments to increase so that more money could be spent to improve social services, and I would like others in my position of moderate wealth to do the same. Does that mean I am greedy?

And I very much welcome your concern for the poorer people of the world, but I don't see how raising taxation in Britain is going to be at their expense. Is this concern real or is it just a debating tool? I don't see it as an either or or situation. I think we should be diligently seeking ways of benefiting the disadvantaged people both in this country and elsewhere. And if you would like to contribute to some absolutely wonderful work that is being done in the field of education and health care in poorer countries, then I will be very happy to put you in touch.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:59 am

Tom Tugendhat - loyalist Conservative MP just tweeted this

https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status ... 5417803776" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hard to read it as anything else other than as an attack on certain communities in NI having far too much power in this deal.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:59 am

AndyClaret wrote:Your mate Peter Foster just been on Sky News, said that the EU are hoping the Benn act saves them so why bother negotiating, i guess the mail on sunday was right, British MP's colluding with the EU to stop us getting a good deal.
And for anyone who says a message on the side of a red bus and posters of Farage with lots of refugees in the background etc weren't taken seriously by anyone and didnt influence the leave vote I give you evidence item #1 above
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:01 am

martin_p wrote:If they had three options then they’d ask for first, second and third choices on the ballot paper.
I used to think that but now doubt that there is no way to do that without undermining the future negotiating position with the EU. As the threat of no deal to get a deal would most likely be undermined.

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