General Election Is On

[Paul Waine]

Should have qualified my last comment about press releases. As you say Paul Waine, "without prior written consent".

in other words, very much standard arrangements between any two parties to a contract.

[Paul Waine]

The government managed the contract, it was the private sector developing.

We've got to hope that the gov't/nhs were the ones defining what the IT system was required to do.

So, were the defined requirements impossible to deliver or did the gov't/nhs pick the wrong "private sector" firms to deliver them?

When I've been involved in buying IT systems "the buck" stops with the organisation defining the requirements: if as a buyer you get the definitions wrong then you are responsible; if as a buyer you choose the wrong firm(s) to deliver then you are responsible.

[CrosspoolClarets]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.york ... 4909%3famp


This was in my trust. If you wonder why I can’t vote Tory it’s because I witness things like this all the time

Terrible situation in that photo, but I would gently point out that the worst scandal (Mid Staffs) with hundreds dead came under the last Labour government.

Governments have a big role and are ultimately accountable, but it is NHS staff who are primarily responsible for ensuring these situations do not happen. Poor management and poor care basically (often both).

Anecdote - I’ve been the director on call for a hospital during that Labour government, and if something happens (e.g. a pileup on the motorway) you get a call in the middle of the night and have to deal with it. Lack of beds, lack of doctors etc. It isn’t easy at times, a decision wrong and people can die, and money will solve some things but not others. Those who do it have my full respect and admiration.

[Inchy]

Terrible situation in that photo, but I would gently point out that the worst scandal (Mid Staffs) with hundreds dead came under the last Labour government.

Governments have a big role and are ultimately accountable, but it is NHS staff who are primarily responsible for ensuring these situations do not happen. Poor management and poor care basically (often both).

Anecdote - I’ve been the director on call for a hospital during that Labour government, and if something happens (e.g. a pileup on the motorway) you get a call in the middle of the night and have to deal with it. Lack of beds, lack of doctors etc. It isn’t easy at times, a decision wrong and people can die, and money will solve some things but not others. Those who do it have my full respect and admiration.

The Francis report into mid-Staff highlighted poor practice based on a poor culture, both at front line and management. It didn't mention underfunding as an issue. That isn't the case at my Trust. The culture is good, the trust consistency does well in CQC reports, the only issues the CQC has with my trust is staffing. Staffing is an issue throughout the NHS and its got worse in the past 9 years. My own department is running on 40% of its recommended staffing levels.

Its easy to say " but it is NHS staff who are primarily responsible for ensuring these situations do not happen. " but its this government that has made these situations common and unavoidable.

Mid-staff wasn't the norm.

[martin_p]

We've got to hope that the gov't/nhs were the ones defining what the IT system was required to do.

So, were the defined requirements impossible to deliver or did the gov't/nhs pick the wrong "private sector" firms to deliver them?

When I've been involved in buying IT systems "the buck" stops with the organisation defining the requirements: if as a buyer you get the definitions wrong then you are responsible; if as a buyer you choose the wrong firm(s) to deliver then you are responsible.

Have you ever been involved in an externally supplied multi million government IT system? Unless you have there’s no point in discussing it with you.

[Paul Waine]

Have you ever been involved in an externally supplied multi million government IT system? Unless you have there’s no point in discussing it with you.

Hi martin, I've been in charge of a few IT projects on the user side. In the distant past I led an IT team delivering small projects. However, these were all private sector.

What is the difference in public sector? I'm happy to learn.

[Damo]

Me: The Tories are leading in the polls....
Corbynista: I'll wait for survation thanks.

Oh......

Twitter is a laugh following this.

Apparently the survation poll is now a propaganda tool to stop the far left moonbats from voting

Beyond parody

[Firthy]

Hi Firthy, a bit back, I saw an explanation of where the expression "hobson's choice" comes from: a stable owner called Hobson would pick the horse he would rent you - rather than the renter being allowed to check out whether the horse was already lame, or otherwise not good to ride. (I think it was renting rather than buying, but that probably doesn't matter).

So, who is "Hobson" for our GE on Thursday?

Could be either, they're both lame

[aggi]

I have no problem with my data being sold on a " name deleted " basis, to any drug company. It will raise money for the NHS, or my GP's practice, and help the company concerned with medical research ....

The trouble is that just deleting your name doesn't really anonymise the data. For the data to be useful it needs to have as many reference points as possible and this would include things such as age, general location, ethnicity, sex, etc. Once you start cross referencing all those data points it can become fairly easy to link the data back to a handful of individuals.

[Bfcboyo]

You definitely haven’t. Why ‘fella’? Consider it an insult to imply someone’s gay? You a homophobe?

Not at all , it was a genuine mistake. But don't hold back on the attack and jump the gun like all you aggressive passive liberal when it suits shoites do.

[Devils_Advocate]

Not at all , it was a genuine mistake. But don't hold back on the attack and jump the gun like all you aggressive passive liberal when it suits shoites do.

To be fair you have form in this area. On Owen Jones getting attacked and assaulted

May have just been some rival queens defending their drag.

[CrosspoolClarets]

The Francis report into mid-Staff highlighted poor practice based on a poor culture, both at front line and management. It didn't mention underfunding as an issue. That isn't the case at my Trust. The culture is good, the trust consistency does well in CQC reports, the only issues the CQC has with my trust is staffing. Staffing is an issue throughout the NHS and its got worse in the past 9 years. My own department is running on 40% of its recommended staffing levels.

Its easy to say " but it is NHS staff who are primarily responsible for ensuring these situations do not happen. " but its this government that has made these situations common and unavoidable.

Mid-staff wasn't the norm.

Indeed, if your Trust is Leeds then I would agree they are very well run and had turned the finances around in recent years. I know some members of your trust board and your former finance director (now sadly deceased) is someone I had a huge amount of time for.

However, respectfully, I would say that a lot of huge specialist hospitals have funding problems and (thus) staff shortages due to the way their specialist work is reimbursed (i.e. it is underestimated). I certainly wouldn't take away any share of blame from any government, but it is an internal NHS issue to ensure these Trusts are fairly funded. I can say with some confidence that nationally NHS England haven't cracked that problem. I can't comment about Leeds in particular, I don't know their exact situation, but I think what I am saying is that you can change the government but that problem will not go away.

I would certainly support clinical staff who say things like "sort it out, we are all suffering....". I simply don't think the answer is very easy.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Have you ever been involved in an externally supplied multi million government IT system? Unless you have there’s no point in discussing it with you.

I have. Huge sums, the kind to make you weep.

It's a hugely complex area and I've stayed out of that debate on here, I don't know enough about this Amazon thing to have a clear viewpoint. All I would say is that the NHS are becoming completely reliant on partnerships with big technology companies (e.g. many radiology scans are now electronically reported by doctors thousands of miles away, all via technology) and it is only a matter of time before a bad decision is made about which company should be allowed to do a particular thing with a particular piece of data. These decisions can save lives, or they can be a big confidentiality breach, or both, it's a very tricky balance.

[martin_p]

Not at all , it was a genuine mistake. But don't hold back on the attack and jump the gun like all you aggressive passive liberal when it suits shoites do.

Yeah, that might wash if you were replying to a poster who doesn't use his/her real name, but 'martin' isn't a popular girls name so I'm not sure how you've managed to make that mistake.

[Bfcboyo]

To be fair you have form in this area. On Owen Jones getting attacked and assaulted

Just a pun on words. Did you like what I did.

[Bfcboyo]

Yeah, that might wash if you were replying to a poster who doesn't use his/her real name, but 'martin' isn't a popular girls name so I'm not sure how you've managed to make that mistake.

Maybe you and your wife fella or you and yours fella . I honestly didn't make fun of or realise the error.

Apologies for offending you and for causing you to be unnecessarily offended for others by the typo and for voting conservative this Thursday. Voting leave as well sorry about that.

[Greenmile]

Maybe you and your wife fella or you and yours fella . I honestly didn't make fun of or realise the error.

Apologies for offending you and for causing you to be unnecessarily offended for others by the typo and for voting conservative this Thursday. Voting leave as well sorry about that.

The only thing you should be apologising for is being a disgusting homophobe.

[martin_p]

Maybe you and your wife fella or you and yours fella . I honestly didn't make fun of or realise the error.

Apologies for offending you and for causing you to be unnecessarily offended for others by the typo and for voting conservative this Thursday. Voting leave as well sorry about that.

Take a lot more than that to offend me. It’s just an interesting (but unsurprising) insight into what you think is an insult.

[EarbyClaret]

Surprisingly quiet day on this thread bearing in mind it appears to be a pivotal day in the campaign:

Johnson's 'oven ready' Brexit strategy massively exposed on the basis of what that means for NI

Johnson deflects his disinclination to face Andrew Neill by questioning licence fee validity

NHS front and centre following Johnson's bizarre behaviour when confronted directly on why a four year old boy with suspected pneumonia was forced to sleep on the floor of a Leeds hospital,

[martin_p]

Surprisingly quiet day on this thread bearing in mind it appears to be a pivotal day in the campaign:

Johnson's 'oven ready' Brexit strategy massively exposed on the basis of what that means for NI

Johnson deflects his disinclination to face Andrew Neill by questioning licence fee validity

NHS front and centre following Johnson's bizarre behaviour when confronted directly on why a four year old boy with suspected pneumonia was forced to sleep on the floor of a Leeds hospital,

And let’s not forget the attempt to deflect from Johnson’s bizarre interview by claiming one of Matt Hancock’s advisors had been punched by a ‘left wing protestor’. Well right up until the point video footage of the incident turned up and they had to admit that in fact the advisor had just bumped into someone’s arm.

[RMutt]

And let’s not forget the attempt to deflect from Johnson’s bizarre interview by claiming one of Matt Hancock’s advisors had been punched by a ‘left wing protestor’. Well right up until the point video footage of the incident turned up and they had to admit that in fact the advisor had just bumped into someone’s arm.

Absolute madness if Johnson is voted in. It reminds me of when Trump said he could shoot someone and still get elected. The media has allowed him to run away and have protected him from scrutiny in a way they would never let a Labour politician.

[Paul Waine]

Times analysis of voter turnout, on-line this evening, print version, I expect Tuesday:

"According to analysis, the constituency likely to have the highest turnout on Thursday is Hyndburn in Lancashire, with a median turnout since 1918 of 83.3 per cent. The seat has been Labour since 1992, having previously been Conservative."

[RMutt]

Times analysis of voter turnout, on-line this evening, print version, I expect Tuesday:

"According to analysis, the constituency likely to have the highest turnout on Thursday is Hyndburn in Lancashire, with a median turnout since 1918 of 83.3 per cent. The seat has been Labour since 1992, having previously been Conservative."

Let’s hope Hyndburnians maintain their impressive record since 1992 then.

[Paul Waine]

Let’s hope Hyndburnians maintain their impressive record since 1992 then.

We will see. I saw it mentioned that Hyndburn (I prefer the old constituency name: Accrington) may go Conservative this time....

[CrosspoolClarets]

Classic dead cat thrown on the table today by Johnson - hijacked with that Leeds kid’s photo, clear potential for it to affect people’s views (wrongly, I deplore politicising individual bad experiences), so on comes the dead cat in the form of the Tories scrapping the BBC as we know it.

EDIT - sorry, realised many readers will need me to explain the dead cat - the expression means when you throw a dead cat on a table everyone forgets about what they were on about and talks about the dead cat. Not a pleasant metaphor but the common one to use.

Very clever politics, but more importantly, a popular intent to scrap an incredibly regressive tax, and one in the solar plexus for the BBC who the Tories think have been biased against them for years.

One thing about Johnson (and Cummings). They are a bit insecure, hold grudges and you have to be brave to cross them. The BBC (and Channel 4) have. So have the Lords. So did the 21 Tory MPs. So did the Speaker (who traditionally moves to the Lords). So did Ireland (before doing an about turn). Let’s wait and see how many of that list are unaffected in 5 years - I suspect they will be targeted for punishment out of vengeance (no, that isn’t a great leadership quality, but neither is being a UK hating antisemite and they are the two options).

[Bfcboyo]

Take a lot more than that to offend me. It’s just an interesting (but unsurprising) insight into what you think is an insult.

Or a genuine mistake you misconstrued as a direct insult.

[Bfcboyo]

The only thing you should be apologising for is being a disgusting homophobe.

Come on pantomime season is here but get real girlfriend.

[martin_p]

Classic dead cat thrown on the table today by Johnson - hijacked with that Leeds kid’s photo, clear potential for it to affect people’s views (wrongly, I deplore politicising individual bad experiences), so on comes the dead cat in the form of the Tories scrapping the BBC as we know it.

EDIT - sorry, realised many readers will need me to explain the dead cat - the expression means when you throw a dead cat on a table everyone forgets about what they were on about and talks about the dead cat. Not a pleasant metaphor but the common one to use.

Very clever politics, but more importantly, a popular intent to scrap an incredibly regressive tax, and one in the solar plexus for the BBC who the Tories think have been biased against them for years.

One thing about Johnson (and Cummings). They are a bit insecure, hold grudges and you have to be brave to cross them. The BBC (and Channel 4) have. So have the Lords. So did the 21 Tory MPs. So did the Speaker (who traditionally moves to the Lords). So did Ireland (before doing an about turn). Let’s wait and see how many of that list are unaffected in 5 years - I suspect they will be targeted for punishment out of vengeance (no, that isn’t a great leadership quality, but neither is being a UK hating antisemite and they are the two options).

Didn’t work. The NHS and Johnson’s car crash interview was the lead election story on the main news bulletins tonight.

[Mala591]

Many Burnley voters still feel 'betrayed' that their democratic Brexit decision has been ignored by Julie Cooper/The Labour Party and that some sort of 'democratic justice' at the ballot box must be enacted to remind our MP's that WE cannot and must not be ignored.

[Spiral]

Normalising petty, vengeful, autocratic tendencies as you've described isn't exactly a good look, Crosspool, but I suspect you're talking balls. I can't stand the bloke but you're seeing in him an insecure, fragile conception of 'strength' which doesn't bear resemblance to the evidence you're put forward. Bercow's non-peerage was settled long before Johnson became leader, the lords won't change a damn bit, the Ireland issue was blatant posturing and the BBC is already under the thumb of the party. You're seeing strength where it doesn't exist, and, I suspect, you're a little too emotionally invested in him as an individual.

[Spiral]

Many Burnley voters still feel 'betrayed' that their democratic Brexit decision has been ignored by Julie Cooper/The Labour Party and that some sort of 'democratic justice' at the ballot box must be enacted to remind our MP's that WE cannot and must not be ignored.

That's a quite triumphant way of saying "I'm a Tory".

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Nobody in their right mind can vote Tory.

[martin_p]

Many Burnley voters still feel 'betrayed' that their democratic Brexit decision has been ignored by Julie Cooper/The Labour Party and that some sort of 'democratic justice' at the ballot box must be enacted to remind our MP's that WE cannot and must not be ignored.

Well if Johnson gets in the voters of Burnley need to prepare themselves for being ignored.

[Clarets4me]

We will see. I saw it mentioned that Hyndburn (I prefer the old constituency name: Accrington) may go Conservative this time....

YouGov late last week predicted 43 - 39 to the Conservatives overturning a 5,815 majority, whereas Electoral calculus goes 42.8 - 38.2 to Labour, with Labour retaining the seat with a majority of around 1,900 ...

Turnout in 2017 was 61.8% ... nothing to write home about !

[tiger76]

Well i'm the BP has racists in it's ranks,who'd have imagined that.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50722346

[CrosspoolClarets]

Didn’t work. The NHS and Johnson’s car crash interview was the lead election story on the main news bulletins tonight.

Indeed, I agree.

But was it true about this kid?

No mileage for the Tories in coming out and denying it but I am led to believe there is more to this than meets the eye. I’ll leave that one there I think, I have no interest in posting accusations, just keep an open mind. There is some dodgy stuff going on currently, I saw a faked NHS letter today purporting to be an official one. Wait for tomorrow’s Mirror front page, we’ll see another sick child.

[RingoMcCartney]

Many Burnley voters still feel 'betrayed' that their democratic Brexit decision has been ignored by Julie Cooper/The Labour Party and that some sort of 'democratic justice' at the ballot box must be enacted to remind our MP's that WE cannot and must not be ignored.

That's quite an admirable way of saying and arguing for the principle that expressions of democracy must be implemented, if respect and trust in that democracy is to be preserved.

[RingoMcCartney]

That's a quite triumphant way of saying "I'm a Tory".

Apparently, one mans quite triumphant way of saying "I'm a Tory". Is another man's way of saying and arguing for the principle that expressions of democracy must be implemented, if, respect and trust in that democracy , is to be preserved.

Opinions eh!?

[RingoMcCartney]

Nobody in their right mind can vote Tory.

And if you're in half a mind to vote Liebour,




Dont worry!!




That's all it takes......

[Spiral]

Indeed, I agree.

But was it true about this kid?

No mileage for the Tories in coming out and denying it but I am led to believe there is more to this than meets the eye. I’ll leave that one there I think, I have no interest in posting accusations, just keep an open mind. There is some dodgy stuff going on currently, I saw a faked NHS letter today purporting to be an official one. Wait for tomorrow’s Mirror front page, we’ll see another sick child.

Hmmm...

https://twitter.com/marcowenjones/statu ... 1009262592

Must read thread for you, or anyone else who might be reading on social media that the photo of the 4yo with pneumonia could be fake news. Putting aside the fact Johnson handled this all horribly, it appears as though sock puppet social media accounts are proliferating - verbatim - a copypasta casting doubt on the truthfulness of this story. People are retweeting bots in the belief they are genuine people, and sharing the copypasta in their facebook groups. While twitter is far from a perfect platform, anyone with any sense would delete their facebook account right now. It's poison, and keeps people enclosed in their little bubbles more so than just about every other social media platform. The level of gaslighting that happens on facebook is disturbing. Anyway, a Telegraph journo claims to have a scoop in today's (Tuesday) paper. This could get embarrassing for her without a named source.

edit-it's worth noting that it's entirely possible the boy was placed on the floor by his mum, I'm not making a point either way about that. I'm posting the twitter thread as it shows how bots and sock puppets propagate a narrative.

[Taffy on the wing]

Nobody in their right mind can vote Tory.

My Dad who passed 2yrs ago. Was very ill, and living in the Dales was forced to go a good distance for treatment.
On one occasion he was taken by Ambulance to the Emergency room in Leeds. He had Pneumonia on top of everything else. They left him on a gurney by the Automatic doors for 6 hours on a freezing cold night........Barbaric!....Tory Barstewards out!!!!!!!!

[Bfcboyo]

Nobody in their right mind can vote Tory.

Nobody with a work ethic can vote Corbyn.

From a life long labour man proud to be voting Conservative over Corbyn this Thursday.

[Inchy]

Indeed, I agree.

But was it true about this kid?

No mileage for the Tories in coming out and denying it but I am led to believe there is more to this than meets the eye. I’ll leave that one there I think, I have no interest in posting accusations, just keep an open mind. There is some dodgy stuff going on currently, I saw a faked NHS letter today purporting to be an official one. Wait for tomorrow’s Mirror front page, we’ll see another sick child.

All Leeds staff got an email from the Chief Executive of the trust yesterday. It didn’t excuse this photo. It said we are the busiest we have been for years. I’ve been on that unit when it’s been busy with my own daughter. I’m not surprised by this photo.

The only thing that’s “more than meets the eye” is truely how worrying this photo is.

The boy has a 15L NRB mask next to him. You don’t give that to people that are a little unwell. It’s delivers about 80% oxygen. You only put people who you are really worried about on that.

[Bfcboyo]

Hmmm...

https://twitter.com/marcowenjones/statu ... 1009262592

Must read thread for you, or anyone else who might be reading on social media that the photo of the 4yo with pneumonia could be fake news. Putting aside the fact Johnson handled this all horribly, it appears as though sock puppet social media accounts are proliferating - verbatim - a copypasta casting doubt on the truthfulness of this story. People are retweeting bots in the belief they are genuine people, and sharing the copypasta in their facebook groups. While twitter is far from a perfect platform, anyone with any sense would delete their facebook account right now. It's poison, and keeps people enclosed in their little bubbles more so than just about every other social media platform. The level of gaslighting that happens on facebook is disturbing. Anyway, a Telegraph journo claims to have a scoop in today's (Tuesday) paper. This could get embarrassing for her without a named source.

edit-it's worth noting that it's entirely possible the boy was placed on the floor by his mum, I'm not making a point either way about that. I'm posting the twitter thread as it shows how bots and sock puppets propagate a narrative.

Good luck explaining sock puppetry to the muppetry leaders of this board. All these independent free thinking liberal minded truth seeking Corbynites and lib demi gods. With their hive brains and tunnel vision mentality that they so apparently despise. If it suits them and their fake views then the hive will not be swayed by reason and discussion.

Single thinking and focus by the supposed free thinking left on here is laughable.

Que Dr who Dalek chanting " you do not share our views, you must be a knuckle dragging, racist homophobe. Destroy destroy destroy"


If the pic is real and the situation is as alleged then blame yourselves for all the focus being around, Brexit and the amount of time and money it has taken up already as your fake messiah Corbyn has done all possible to stop it. I really hope this election he has forced comes back to bite the snivelling creep and the Labour Party can move forward again as the people's party.

TIME TO GO CORBYN. RESIGNATION DUE FRIDAY 4PM

[Caballo]

We will see. I saw it mentioned that Hyndburn (I prefer the old constituency name: Accrington) may go Conservative this time....

It may as well still be called Accrington Paul, as that's where all the money gets spent.
I suspect it will remain Labour, the Conservative candidate is about 12 and ' cos my dad did it' isn't really a qualification, the brexit guy rather than being the usual crackpot seems like a thoroughly decent bloke with a wealth of life experience, were he standing for the Tories I'd imagine it would be a comfortable gain.

[Inchy]

Just to add the rumours are the little lad “didn’t have to sleep on the floor”. Apparently that’s come from nurses on the CAT unit where the boy is. There definitely wasn’t any bed. I don’t think that’s up for debate.

I’m speculating here but I bet this lad was offered one of the relative chairs. The ones parents try to sleep on next to their child’s bed. I’ve sat on those chairs. I’d rather sleep on the floor as well. They are certainly not designed for children to sleep on, let alone sick children.

There wasn’t any beds and the young lad was needing 80% oxygen meaning he was acutely unwell at the time

[bfcjg]

The NHS like education has been a political punch bag by all parties since its inception. Surely such national treasures should be above politics, properly funded, and left to be run by experts. I waited 2 years for a leg operation under labour so not one of them are squeaky clean TBH.

[Heathclaret]

Nobody with a work ethic can vote Corbyn.

From a life long labour man proud to be voting Conservative over Corbyn this Thursday.

I run my own business, work seven days a week and I will be voting Labour on Thursday, not because I’m a fan of Corbyn, but because giving the conservatives another four years with Johnson at the helm is a very frightening prospect.

If you were a labour supporter, you wouldn’t be comfortable voting for the conservatives with Johnson, Gove and Rees Mogg running the country. We’d be back to children working in the mills and no workers rights if they had their way.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I find the tactics of all sides disgusting re the NHS, though the hard left mob in particular have no place anywhere near a hospital.

The problem I have with politicising this kid is that Labour and the papers can say what they want with the permission of the mother, whereas the hospital and the government cannot say anything for GDPR reasons - they will know everything, to the minute, every interaction he has had, but cannot say it. It therefore cannot be a balanced story (e.g. if it turns out he was stable, in a chair but wanted to go to sleep lying down, it becomes a different, while still not pleasant, story).

[RMutt]

I find the tactics of all sides disgusting re the NHS, though the hard left mob in particular have no place anywhere near a hospital.

The problem I have with politicising this kid is that Labour and the papers can say what they want with the permission of the mother, whereas the hospital and the government cannot say anything for GDPR reasons - they will know everything, to the minute, every interaction he has had, but cannot say it. It therefore cannot be a balanced story (e.g. if it turns out he was stable, in a chair but wanted to go to sleep lying down, it becomes a different, while still not pleasant, story).

Labour supporters have had to put up with a lack of balance in reporting for years.