Against Villa

[Danieljwaterhouse]

I think the flaw in the "Cork is too lightweight to play in a midfield 2" argument is the evidence of results - we've used 4-4-2 almost exclusively during 2019 (during which Cork has been ever present) and accumulated 52 points in the year, which is a quite exceptional result for a team of our standing.

He does a great job - he's the midfielder who does the unsung stuff, winning headers, filling in gaps in front of the back four, making blocks, nicking the ball off the toe of an opponent. Drinkwater is an excellent player, but whilst Cork has undoubted limitations (range of passing most obviously) a Drinkwater/Westwood partnership would leave us a lot more open (and we'd miss Cork's ability to win second balls in the air for a start).

The idea he gets bumped off the ball is one I'm also unconvinced by. I doubt any opposition manager would ever describe our midfield 2 as being lightweight or capable of being bullied. It is true though that Cork is not a power player (we can't afford them), and so when he's exposed to players running at pace he drops off them. But that's not exactly unusual in a holding midfield player.

Very much the sort of player you only fully appreciate when he's missing.

I’d suggest if you want to keep Cork he’s only able to do that in a three (3). He does get bumped off, he’s does get out jumped, he does lose out to others. I’m not saying Cork wasn’t a very good player for us but he’s on the decline and we need to be mindful that we’re not just justifying his role through loyalty.

More and more we’re seeing forwards drop into our midfield and overload Westwood and Cork, or CB’s promoting into that space again overloading. Maguire did it really well against us for United.

I’d always play three in there, either change the 4-4-2 when we have the ball to a 4-3-3 (we’d have to play more progressive possession football) or start with a 4-5-1 and promote the wide players (JRod and JBG) in possession.

[Danieljwaterhouse]

Thanks for your reply. I need to watch the game more carefully as I didn't see any of that vs Man City recently. It seemed to me that Man City were completely controlling the midfield and that Drinky was almost a complete passenger. Although I did see him foul the keeper after Burnley's first corner.

Given this array of abilities that you have detected, can you explain why vs Manchester City he had the lowest pass completion rate out of the outfielders from both teams apart from Chris Wood? Maybe as Sean has suggested just not match sharp?

Sarcasm or passive aggressive? Someone’s started Dry January too soon...

He’s obviously not match sharp, and to go up against Man City in a two wasn’t a great way to build his confidence or sharpness. Add that to the pressure of a first start and getting your career back on track it led to a car crash. Dyche tried something, didn’t work and was brave enough to pull the plug. Doesn’t mean he isn’t a player who can perform to a higher level than we have at the moment. I like Westwood, I like Drinkwater, I’d play three in there with McNeil.

[LeadBelly]

Whatever the formula/formation was against Southampton, Norwich, West Ham & Watford seemed to work OK, probably stick with that as it seems effective against bottom 6 teams.
Usual back 4; JGB (/Hendrick) + Cork + Westwood + McNeil; 2 up (Barnes + Wood if fit).

[claretspice]

I’d suggest if you want to keep Cork he’s only able to do that in a three (3). He does get bumped off, he’s does get out jumped, he does lose out to others. I’m not saying Cork wasn’t a very good player for us but he’s on the decline and we need to be mindful that we’re not just justifying his role through loyalty.

More and more we’re seeing forwards drop into our midfield and overload Westwood and Cork, or CB’s promoting into that space again overloading. Maguire did it really well against us for United.

I’d always play three in there, either change the 4-4-2 when we have the ball to a 4-3-3 (we’d have to play more progressive possession football) or start with a 4-5-1 and promote the wide players (JRod and JBG) in possession.

No objection to playing three in midfield - as you'll have read, I'm a long standing advocate of us playing McNeil as the most advanced of a midfield 3, at least on occasions. And I agree that teams are increasingly focusing on creating overloads in midfield - at times the other night Maguire was stepping forwards and Perrerra back to create a massive overload in midfield - when Hendrick stepped into engage the spare man, that's when they released Williams on the outside and isolated Bardsley.

But I think you have to accept that the 442 we've played this year has worked well results wise, so we've been competitive in midfield particularly without the ball (which is why I question the idea we are lightweight).

That 442 has been predicated on the effectiveness of Barnes and Wood as a partnership, so it's an awfully big step to rip that up and start again - and that partnership, and 442 will always have a role against those teams we suspect will allow it to work.

[boatshed bill]

He’s a quality player,

You mean "was"

[Spijed]

No objection to playing three in midfield - as you'll have read, I'm a long standing advocate of us playing McNeil as the most advanced of a midfield 3, at least on occasions. And I agree that teams are increasingly focusing on creating overloads in midfield - at times the other night Maguire was stepping forwards and Perrerra back to create a massive overload in midfield - when Hendrick stepped into engage the spare man, that's when they released Williams on the outside and isolated Bardsley.

But I think you have to accept that the 442 we've played this year has worked well results wise, so we've been competitive in midfield particularly without the ball (which is why I question the idea we are lightweight).

That 442 has been predicated on the effectiveness of Barnes and Wood as a partnership, so it's an awfully big step to rip that up and start again - and that partnership, and 442 will always have a role against those teams we suspect will allow it to work.

Aside from Grealish in midfield, is there anyone else in the Villa team we should be worried about?

[Barry_Chuckle]

Aside from Grealish in midfield, is there anyone else in the Villa team we should be worried about?

I believe their keeper is a bit special, cheeky bid in January if Pope is carrying a knock from Saturday night.

[Danieljwaterhouse]

No objection to playing three in midfield - as you'll have read, I'm a long standing advocate of us playing McNeil as the most advanced of a midfield 3, at least on occasions. And I agree that teams are increasingly focusing on creating overloads in midfield - at times the other night Maguire was stepping forwards and Perrerra back to create a massive overload in midfield - when Hendrick stepped into engage the spare man, that's when they released Williams on the outside and isolated Bardsley.

But I think you have to accept that the 442 we've played this year has worked well results wise, so we've been competitive in midfield particularly without the ball (which is why I question the idea we are lightweight).

That 442 has been predicated on the effectiveness of Barnes and Wood as a partnership, so it's an awfully big step to rip that up and start again - and that partnership, and 442 will always have a role against those teams we suspect will allow it to work.

I do accept that 4-4-2 is pragmatic and does allow us to create solid blocks in defence and then opportunities to get a goal and gather points.

I think that we’ve reached the ceiling with the current system, and teams are figuring us out as you’ve rightly suggested overloading the midfield, drawing in the wide players and then isolating our fullbacks. This creates problems for Tarks and Mee. Tarks is able athletically and I’d say positionally to adapt to this challenge but Mee is often left isolated and played around. Mee is a fantastic defender when the ball is in front of him, he’s limited when movement happens alongside and behind him (that is where Heaton is a big loss as he did the thinking for Mee) and the reason he will never make an England squad.

We have seen it become popular for CB’s to carry out and into midfield, Rio was doing it years ago, and countless before him were mastering it. As it’s become popular so more teams are doing it, teams we wouldn’t have expected to in years gone by. We’ve got to adapt and sadly we ain’t doing that. We’re losing battles and so pushing ourselves back into the Alamo two banks of four rather than engaging higher up the pitch.

It is a huge challenge to change the manner in which we play, as it is to change the playing staff when you’ve been with them for so long, but it’s a challenge we need to invest in and undertake over coming windows. If we don’t we will be left with an aging one dimensional squad ala Stoke.

I’ve said it before and I will keep saying it Dyche is going to be a top four manager, it won’t be with us, but unless we support his need to move forward we will lose him sooner rather than later.

It’s my opinion, it’s not factual before the those warriors of the board let loose!

[Helmshore Claret]

Villa will come to the Turf with confidence of halting their slide. They will also have seen that we’ve only had one good half of football in the last two games. They’ll be expecting us to launch it long for most of the game.

I’m expecting much of the same, both managers will be happy for a point.

They will also be aware that the 2 sides which they played,over Christmas, were both well beaten by us with 5 scored and
0 against. I think that Dyche will want all 3pts, with a difficult run of games to follow, although, not to lose is a given.

[RVclaret]

Pope
Lowton Tarkowski Mee Taylor
Westwood Cork
JBG McNeil Jay Rod
Wood

This would give Jay Rod and Dwight the ability to be more fluent in their positions and hopefully get us playing on the deck more.