Sunday Times - 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Did you read the article? It quotes Johnson as saying the country is “fully prepared” - as of the beginning of March. We now now that wasn’t the case.

Prepared for what they thought it was, not what it turned out to be.

[diamondpocket]

Too few tests: read 20k done yesterday. Seems to be getting better.

100k by the end of the month should be where we can judge if things are improving or not because that has been the stance for a few weeks now. Will they be able to start doing 10k a day more in the next week?

As we are seeing in Italy who are doing more tests by the day, the more done the more cases are found, which unfortunately is lengthening their lock-down period as there is plateau. This makes it vital that more testing is done and more is found ASAP.

[arise_sir_charge]

Sounds like he died because he wasn't wearing PPE

Sounds like..........JESUS WEPT!

[tiger76]

I think the British public are a lot more docile than to have disobeyed on masse a lockdown rule. When you consider all the misery inflicted on them through austerity then a lockdown is a doddle.

The real problems we face right now are too few tests, not enough PPE, and seemingly no plan. The public and the WHO don’t carry this responsibility.

Blimey! we agree on something Andrew,testing was always going to be an issue,compared to Germany we're not as advanced in pharmaceutical and biotech industries,but there was and is absolutely no excuse for the PPE shortage,we knew 3 months ago this virus was a potential threat,and yet the government made no effort to acquire the said PPE,now of course naturally there is a huge demand world wide for the stock,and they wonder why it's hard to obtain,and now it's emerged that the expected supplies from Turkey won't arrive today after all,even the Sun is turning on the government,that really is a sign all is not well https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11430190/ ... -delayed/

As for an exit plan there is rumours in the press of a traffic-light system being part of a phased return to some form of normality https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11428725/ ... sterplan/ but it'll be slow.

[arise_sir_charge]

As for the Cobra meetings, people criticising on here likely had no idea what Cobra was/is until this and more so would have absolutely zero idea of the actual protocols involved but “Boris missed 5 of them.........sack him”.

[arise_sir_charge]

Blimey! we agree on something Andrew,testing was always going to be an issue,compared to Germany we're not as advanced in pharmaceutical and biotech industries,but there was and is absolutely no excuse for the PPE shortage,we knew 3 months ago this virus was a potential threat,and yet the government made no effort to acquire the said PPE,now of course naturally there is a huge demand world wide for the stock,and they wonder why it's hard to obtain,and now it's emerged that the expected supplies from Turkey won't arrive today after all,even the Sun is turning on the government,that really is a sign all is not well https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11430190/ ... -delayed/

As for an exit plan there is rumours in the press of a traffic-light system being part of a phased return to some form of normality https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11428725/ ... sterplan/ but it'll be slow.

It’s been delayed, because it’s not ready. Blame the Government.

[Spijed]

Sounds like..........JESUS WEPT!

Considering he raised the subject shortly before he died there is a very high probability that he wasn't able to get any PPE for himself!

Once you have FULL PPE you should be fully protected.

There have been many doctors and nurses seeing plenty patients whilst not wearing any gear, so the odds are that at least one or two will have picked up the virus and died as a result.

[thatdberight]

Has that actually happened frequently though or is it just the odd video on social media being shared ad infinitum?

It's happening. Certainly in London.

[bfcjg]

He might have thought they would be discussing snakes at the meetings he missed.

[tiger76]

It’s been delayed, because it’s not ready. Blame the Government.

Who are we supposed to blame,maybe if the government had showed some urgency earlier we wouldn't be in this mess,just a thought,it's all fine and dandy clapping for our essential staff every week,but that doesn't keep them safe does it,ultimately the buck stops with those in charge,it's about time they started showing leadership,Sunak apart it's sorely lacking.

[arise_sir_charge]

Who are we supposed to blame,maybe if the government had showed some urgency earlier we wouldn't be in this mess,just a thought,it's all fine and dandy clapping for our essential staff every week,but that doesn't keep them safe does it,ultimately the buck stops with those in charge,it's about time they started showing leadership,Sunak apart it's sorely lacking.

So The Turks not having it ready is the Government's fault. Ok.

[arise_sir_charge]

By the way, we don’t have to “blame” anybody.

[Burnley Ace]

Grace and favour retreat - is that commonly referred to as Checkers?

Boris has ignored the flooding because he’s in a meeting about some flu virus in China!!

The NHS should have spent millions stockpiling PPE and ventilators just in case there is a flu pandemic - manufactured by the “friends” of the government of course.

Prof Sridhar - the go to academic critic!

Hindsight is lovely but what we should have done by 1st Feb is

1. Shut all borders to non uk residents. Anyone returning should be tested and placed in government run isolation camps and empty hotels for 7 days.
2. Immediate full lockdown with night time curfew. Only one person per household allowed to leave the house with pre authorised permission from local authorities stating when and where they can go and an appropriate time slot
3. The armed forces need to be deployed on the streets as a reassurance, helping with logistics and law enforcement
4. Immediate closure of all businesses.
5. Public transport to only be used with pre authorisation. All train/tube stations to be policed to restrict volume.
6. Immediate requisitioning of all manufacturing premises with output diverted to emergency equipment
7. Immediate ban on the export of any products required by UK emergency services

If we had done that we would be out of lockdown by now

[CombatClaret]

Having done a bit of reading up, it's not unusual for PM to miss cobra meetings as they get briefed separately. Once it was named as a pandemic he chaired then.

WHO naming it a global pandemic was just them stating where we were at the time, that a milestone had been reached in their opinion. There's no real official line you cross to become a pandemic ie: X many infections per X number of countries.

The actual WHO rallying cry of 'do something now' was the declaration of a global heath emergency on Jan 31st. That's when the PM should have been in meetings from, not until after the horse was declared to have bolted.

[Grumps]

WHO naming it a global pandemic was just them stating where we were at the time, that a milestone had been reached in their opinion. There's no real official line you cross to become a pandemic ie: X many infections per X number of countries.

The actual WHO rallying cry of 'do something now' was the declaration of a global heath emergency on Jan 31st. That's when the PM should have been in meetings from, not until after the horse was declared to have bolted.

Not sure the political experts in the press/media responding to the times article particularly agree with you, but iam not arguing, as I can only go off what iam reading,iam not an expert on cobra meeting protocol

[thatdberight]

Grace and favour retreat - is that commonly referred to as Checkers?

No. Not even when it's spelt correctly.

[thatdberight]

Grace and favour retreat - is that commonly referred to as Checkers?

Boris has ignored the flooding because he’s in a meeting about some flu virus in China!!

The NHS should have spent millions stockpiling PPE and ventilators just in case there is a flu pandemic - manufactured by the “friends” of the government of course.

Prof Sridhar - the go to academic critic!

Hindsight is lovely but what we should have done by 1st Feb is

1. Shut all borders to non uk residents. Anyone returning should be tested and placed in government run isolation camps and empty hotels for 7 days.
2. Immediate full lockdown with night time curfew. Only one person per household allowed to leave the house with pre authorised permission from local authorities stating when and where they can go and an appropriate time slot
3. The armed forces need to be deployed on the streets as a reassurance, helping with logistics and law enforcement
4. Immediate closure of all businesses.
5. Public transport to only be used with pre authorisation. All train/tube stations to be policed to restrict volume.
6. Immediate requisitioning of all manufacturing premises with output diverted to emergency equipment
7. Immediate ban on the export of any products required by UK emergency services

If we had done that we would be out of lockdown by now

So we've gone from, "We should have done what somebody else did" to "We should have done way more on nearly every action than any other country did." including the throwaway comment that we should have "closure of all businesses".

Super.

[Quickenthetempo]

Sounds like he died because he wasn't wearing PPE

It sounds like he warned the government there could be shortages and the newspaper put a slant on things to make people believe he didn't have any to wear?

He also sounds like an experienced enough doctor to know not to treat virus victims without PPE.

Why do we need to know?

Because if Doctors are dying treating these patients with PPE on, caught in the hospital we have big problems.

Truths need to start coming out for the benefit of the country, not a political party.

[Spijed]

He also sounds like an experienced enough doctor to know not to treat virus victims without PPE.

But the first thought of a doctor and nurse is a duty of care towards the patient. That's why so many have been been working without full equipment.

For example, should residents of care homes be abandoned to die alone, simple because the staff don't have PPE?

[Hibsclaret]

The bottom line is we currently have nearly 10% of the reported deaths in the world....that’s before consideration of deaths in the wider community. Given we have less than 1% of the world’s population there is something wrong and concerning.

The conclusion is one or more of the following:

The figures are vastly incorrect and there is little point in them being highlighted every day if we don’t know the reality of numbers dying with the virus
Other countries are vastly under reporting and being economical with the truth
Other countries have made better decisions and have been better prepared than we have
We have made some very costly mistakes
We will never be able to ascertain exactly how many people have died from the virus so it will be hard to analyse the mistakes made (thus giving people in power a place to hide from blame)

[Colburn_Claret]

Isn't hindsight wonderful.....

[Spijed]

Another fine effort by the government. This time regarding those magical ventilators:

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/12 ... 9139665920

[Siddo]

Too few tests: read 20k done yesterday. Seems to be getting better.

PPE: still do not buy this. Every doctor I’ve seen interviewed on TV, none have actually said they have not had PPE, just they fear running out. Or the TV reports give vague assertions, completely lacking detail. They use terms like “some NHS trusts are running out of PPE”. Just tell us which ones!! Name them!! Which specific trusts and then hospitals?? Where are the chief execs of these trusts? Why are they not on TV explaining why they are running out & what they are doing about it? And did they actually run out or just low?? Last nights whistleblower on the BBC was just referenced as “Kate” - very informative and impossible to tell if genuine or political point scoring - not that the BBC can be trusted after their shoddy reporting earlier in the week. I also saw an ITV news report when the nurse/dr (forget which) started by raising issues with shortages before being forced to admit she hadn’t actually suffered any, yet, and had all the equipment she needed - was very embarrassing for her, I thought.

As an aside, nor have any of my family or friends on the front line reported shortages (although that’s not to say some don’t exist in some areas like London).

No issues with the media holding the government to account, but I do think in this time of national crisis, accurate reporting with clear facts is critical. I also think it should be balanced with praise for the monumental efforts they have made in building hospitals and equipping tens of thousands of NHS staff with PPE, if they are going to report on isolated shortages elsewhere.

On the point of hospitals, quelle surprise, we haven’t needed them yet so the NHS did have sufficient capacity after all. Yet the media sniping has moved on from moaning about NHS capacity/comparing ventilators per person vs. Germany, and moved on to complaining about the hospitals not being needed!!!

No plan: very much doubt that is the case. Suspect it is being withheld, preferring very clear messaging that all measures should stay in place, because the moment they share the plan on relaxing them, the public will see that as the green light to return to normal life, which would be disastrous. Think the US are going to get pounded on this front in a few months. But again, no credit to the Government for doing what is right and protecting lives.

For the 10th time, my daughter in law is spending all day visiting homes that are making visors on 3d printers for gps, Pendle side hospice, ambulance drivers and paramedics in Burnley, Padiham and Blackburn. They have no ppe!
My son, a gp, is wearing his own clothes and wearing goggles given to him by his local school for his home visits.
The paramedics are on social media thanking her and others for giving them things the government can't.
And by the way, the ppe promised today from Turkey is now delayed. It will be here in the next few days..
This government is unable to cope with anything that doesn't require bluster and rhetoric

[Burnley Ace]

So we've gone from, "We should have done what somebody else did" to "We should have done way more on nearly every action than any other country did." including the throwaway comment that we should have "closure of all businesses".

Super.

Of course we should have. Everyone else (apart from some Asian countries) have gone for half measures to appease their citizens. This is why we went down the “asking, gentle prodding, common sense advice, Formal advice, ordering” route.

Unfortunately asking and advice has failed and we should have gone straight to order and enforce. If we had gone down this route we would where China is, not overtaking Italy.

Why were companies exporting PPE and other vital equipment in Feb and March? Madness! Those orders should have been seized by the government and diverted to the NHS. Clothing manufacturers should have been ordered to start making PPE and all UK orders should be fulfilled before exports.

Why are there no checkpoints, why are people allowed to use public transportation without checks? The enforcement of these regulations is pathetic

[Siddo]

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/health/c ... 1yul27D9YQ

[Burnley Ace]

No. Not even when it's spelt correctly.

Quick google - article slightly misleading. He was staying at this house as an alternative to Chequers (auto correct!) which is undergoing renovations. It’s a house that he used as foreign sec.

[Grumps]

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/health/c ... 1yul27D9YQ

Links to an article dated 6th April?

[Billy Balfour]

This government is unable to cope with anything that doesn't require bluster and rhetoric

Please don't say that. Some people on here can't handle any criticism of the govts handling of the C-19 crisis, even when the facts are staring them right in the face.

[thatdberight]

Of course we should have. Everyone else (apart from some Asian countries) have gone for half measures to appease their citizens. This is why we went down the “asking, gentle prodding, common sense advice, Formal advice, ordering” route.

Unfortunately asking and advice has failed and we should have gone straight to order and enforce. If we had gone down this route we would where China is, not overtaking Italy.

Why were companies exporting PPE and other vital equipment in Feb and March? Madness! Those orders should have been seized by the government and diverted to the NHS. Clothing manufacturers should have been ordered to start making PPE and all UK orders should be fulfilled before exports.

Why are there no checkpoints, why are people allowed to use public transportation without checks? The enforcement of these regulations is pathetic

You have a strong authoritarian streak, don't you? As long as you know not everyone feels the same way and you're just pitching fir your (legitimate) point of view, that's fine. When authoritarians become convinced they are RIGHT and everyone must be made to be right, that's when the rest of us worry.

[Quickenthetempo]

But the first thought of a doctor and nurse is a duty of care towards the patient. That's why so many have been been working without full equipment.

For example, should residents of care homes be abandoned to die alone, simple because the staff don't have PPE?

If a private care home can't provide PPE for it's workers then the carers should not be putting their lives at risk. Patients should be sent back to family homes or sent to care homes where they can look after them and staff safely.

Why do you think carers should carry on regardless?

[thatdberight]

Another fine effort by the government. This time regarding those magical ventilators:

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/12 ... 9139665920

When you say "the government", are you including Civil Service (we have a clear distinction in this country), various half in / half out bodies and, of courses the NHS? Because if you are, that's a point. If it's party political (as it often seems to be), that's not.

[Devils_Advocate]

Interesting take to keep an eye on is that going off recent news storys it looks like the Barclay brothers are promoting Boris as "the only person who can save us" whereas Murdoch may want to dump him in favour of Gove.

You can see this in the way the Telegraph has run with a deluge of "Boris is the only person who
can save us" pieces whilst papers like the Times and Sunday Times seem to be attacking Johnson

If this interpretation is correct and continues to escalate then we could see some real bloody infighting and end up with our two main party's internally at war with themselves

Only one real loser in that scenario and unfortunately its good old joe public

[thatdberight]

The bottom line is we currently have nearly 10% of the reported deaths in the world....that’s before consideration of deaths in the wider community. Given we have less than 1% of the world’s population there is something wrong and concerning.

The conclusion is one or more of the following:

The figures are vastly incorrect and there is little point in them being highlighted every day if we don’t know the reality of numbers dying with the virus
Other countries are vastly under reporting and being economical with the truth
Other countries have made better decisions and have been better prepared than we have
We have made some very costly mistakes
We will never be able to ascertain exactly how many people have died from the virus so it will be hard to analyse the mistakes made (thus giving people in power a place to hide from blame)

All good points to look at both in the long term and immediately rather than either, "Tories bad" or "You're only saying that because you're Labour".

I would add to your list one other possibility, "We are a long way from this being over". Russia, Africa and others are only at the start of this.

[Burnley Ace]

You have a strong authoritarian streak, don't you? As long as you know not everyone feels the same way and you're just pitching fir your (legitimate) point of view, that's fine. When authoritarians become convinced they are RIGHT and everyone must be made to be right, that's when the rest of us worry.

Authoritarian countries have been more successful than more liberal countries (perhaps with the exception of small countries will low population density).

We have been one of the most liberal countries, more so than France, Italy and Spain and that’s reflected in our figures and also in the attitude of a significant portion of the population. Where was the evidence that this ask gently policy would work in the UK. It’s an emeyand people need to be ordered not asked

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Another fine effort by the government. This time regarding those magical ventilators:

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/12 ... 9139665920

Does that relate to this statement/dismissal from the Government?

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/resp ... ter-foster

[thatdberight]

Authoritarian countries have been more successful than more liberal countries (perhaps with the exception of small countries will low population density).

We have been one of the most liberal countries, more so than France, Italy and Spain and that’s reflected in our figures and also in the attitude of a significant portion of the population. Where was the evidence that this ask gently policy would work in the UK. It’s an emeyand people need to be ordered not asked

Like I say, it seems you are not only sure you're right but believe that your version of right should enforced.

Believing that we should just let this play out and kill up to 500,000 in the UK (not that I'm punting for that) is also a coherent answer if that's what the population wants.

[Hipper]

When was the last real pandemic - was it Spanish Flu?

Since then, particularly in my life, we've had SARS, BSE leading Jacob Creutzfeldt Syndrome, swine flu, bird flu, not to mention brain tumours from mobile phones. There have been too many crying wolf so it's hardly surprising that when faced with having to make unprecedented decisions you look back and wonder if it will be excessive.

I think it's far too early to look at what went wrong. We should still be concentrating on dealing with the current and future issues. At some comfortable time in the future all this can be explored including comparisons with how others have done.

[CombatClaret]

When was the last real pandemic - was it Spanish Flu?

Since then, particularly in my life, we've had SARS, BSE leading Jacob Creutzfeldt Syndrome, swine flu, bird flu, not to mention brain tumours from mobile phones. There have been too many crying wolf so it's hardly surprising that when faced with having to make unprecedented decisions you look back and wonder if it will be excessive.

SARS & MERS were both potentially dangerous, the issues is the Asian countries effected dealt with reflectively well. I think this had lead to a huge complacency is western countries. That these things only occur 'over there' and wouldn't happen in a country like Britain or the USA. I can't think of another situation where we've had an over inflated sense of our own exceptionalism recently...

[jrgbfc]

Interesting take to keep an eye on is that going off recent news storys it looks like the Barclay brothers are promoting Boris as "the only person who can save us" whereas Murdoch may want to dump him in favour of Gove.

You can see this in the way the Telegraph has run with a deluge of "Boris is the only person who
can save us" pieces whilst papers like the Times and Sunday Times seem to be attacking Johnson

If this interpretation is correct and continues to escalate then we could see some real bloody infighting and end up with our two main party's internally at war with themselves

Only one real loser in that scenario and unfortunately its good old joe public

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Boris quit on so called "health grounds". I don't think he signed up to deal with something like this, and as you say if Murdoch has got it in for him he's in for a bumpy ride.

[Devils_Advocate]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Boris quit on so called "health grounds". I don't think he signed up to deal with something like this, and as you say if Murdoch has got it in for him he's in for a bumpy ride.

I dont think Johnson will quit anytime soon (if at all) and I dont think anything will happen whist in the midst of this crisis but the knives could be out for the long game and the Brexit extension issue will also come into play as part of what could be an internal split

I see both sides playing the waiting game with this but as said its something to keep an eye on and bear in mind when looking at the editorial position of the different newsgroups

[SammyBoy]

Has the Tory media ever been disunited regarding the leader of whichever Tory government was in power? I’m too young to remember the Tories pre-Blair.

[TheFamilyCat]

Has the Tory media ever been disunited regarding the leader of whichever Tory government was in power? I’m too young to remember the Tories pre-Blair.

The Sun "turned" and backed Blair, although I was too young to really understand the political stance of the press and such like. I suspect the main reason was the inevitability of a Labour victory and them wanting to be on the winning side (or even claim that their backing won it for them).

[NewClaret]

For the 10th time, my daughter in law is spending all day visiting homes that are making visors on 3d printers for gps, Pendle side hospice, ambulance drivers and paramedics in Burnley, Padiham and Blackburn. They have no ppe!
My son, a gp, is wearing his own clothes and wearing goggles given to him by his local school for his home visits.
The paramedics are on social media thanking her and others for giving them things the government can't.
And by the way, the ppe promised today from Turkey is now delayed. It will be here in the next few days..
This government is unable to cope with anything that doesn't require bluster and rhetoric

Sorry to hear that Siddo. No such issues at my wife’s hospital, thankfully.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Government have responded to the article.

https://healthmedia.blog.gov.uk/2020/04 ... t-article/

Can't wait to see what the Sunday times come back with...

[Bin Ont Turf]

Government have responded to the article.

https://healthmedia.blog.gov.uk/2020/04 ... t-article/

Can't wait to see what the Sunday times come back with...

Let's hope they come back with a piece on how we sent PPE to China 2 months ago, and how China in the last few days have upped their death toll by nearly 50%.

[Spijed]

Government have responded to the article.

https://healthmedia.blog.gov.uk/2020/04 ... t-article/

Can't wait to see what the Sunday times come back with...

If the UK ends up with a higher death toll than any other country in Europe (which is a possibility) I'll be impressed if they manage to put a positive spin on it, which they will try, no doubt.

[arise_sir_charge]

Let's hope they come back with a piece on how we sent PPE to China 2 months ago, and how China in the last few days have upped their death toll by nearly 50%.

Try reading it BOT, they cover the PPE to China in detail.

[thatdberight]

If the UK ends up with a higher death toll than any other country in Europe (which is a possibility) I'll be impressed if they manage to put a positive spin on it, which they will try, no doubt.

To be fair, if we'd ended up with a lower death toll, I imagine their detractors would be have had a go at putting a negative spin on it. Such is politics.

[Taffy on the wing]

Nothing about this on the BBC news today!.......Why?

[arise_sir_charge]

If the UK ends up with a higher death toll than any other country in Europe (which is a possibility) I'll be impressed if they manage to put a positive spin on it, which they will try, no doubt.

If they end up in a better position than other countries, manage to avoid any issues with NHS capacity and at the same time protect the economy to some degree (which is a possibility) will you give them any credit at all?