I haven't missed anything.
I'm not sure anyone is actually saying that, what they are saying is that a group of astute businessmen believe there there is more than enough untapped millions plus other forms of generating revenue out there beyond the loan interest and paying it off. Not only are they saying it and believing it they formulated a plan to prove it and put at the minimum there own reputations on the line. Whether it works or not is for sometime in the future when we can all be financial experts in either knowing it would never work or in that we knew there was nothing (well not a lot) to worry about. I think it's blatantly obvious that shirt sales will not cut it alone and that is not the cornerstone of the plan, it was just a simple example, the more crucial parts no one knows about, remember what AP said, be prepared to be amazed, it's like a magic show.NottsClaret wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:46 pmI'd concur with this. We're temporary members of a big league. We've as much global appeal as say Cadiz in Spain or Bielefeld in Germany.. ie making up the numbers for the big clubs to play. Anyone travelling the world to see those teams play? Selling many shirts in Singapore?
If anyone thinks there's untapped millions out there, that'll pay the £9m interest every year on our new mortgage, then fair do's.
Those that do offer a royalty tend to be about 15% of wholesale price (so more like 7-8% of retail).Chester Perry wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:38 pmmost shirt deals pay around 5% of the retail price once a threshold of sales has been achieved, we should earn more as we control the retail, which we handle, by common consent, quite badly. Liverpool had to go to court to prove that even though they are receiving less upfront from Nike the 20% commission on all sales, made the deal more profitable.
You may find this hard to believe, but some of us aren't really interested in off-field activities.KateR wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:31 pmI'm not sure anyone is actually saying that, what they are saying is that a group of astute businessmen believe there there is more than enough untapped millions plus other forms of generating revenue out there beyond the loan interest and paying it off. Not only are they saying it and believing it they formulated a plan to prove it and put at the minimum there own reputations on the line. Whether it works or not is for sometime in the future when we can all be financial experts in either knowing it would never work or in that we knew there was nothing (well not a lot) to worry about. I think it's blatantly obvious that shirt sales will not cut it alone and that is not the cornerstone of the plan, it was just a simple example, the more crucial parts no one knows about, remember what AP said, be prepared to be amazed, it's like a magic show.
I think what you are missing is that a lot of people and businesses don't want to use their own money for numerous things and often have funds tied up in other investments that would results in penalties if pulled early or a loss for that business in which they have used actual cash for.
Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 5:10 pmIm ignoring the bits i've highlighted in red as im just trying to discuss our views and I have never been one to make a case either way for if Garlick or any of our over directors are good people and fans. I agree with you that these people who build them up as saints rather than business men are a bit silly so whether its Kilby, Garlick or Pace I look at the results we produce and not the morality of the person behind it.
Also this give them a chance means nothing to me as again I dont prejudge anyone good or bad so its not a case of giving them a chance or piling on to them for me but wait and see. That said there's nothing wrong with people discussing whats going on even of some do go to the extremes at both side
So that leaves me with what you actually said that is relevant to our discussion and again I dont think you are representing the situation fairly and accurately. The bit about once down we can sell off our assets to pay off the debt is potentially a big disadvantage to if we went down with Garlick still in charge with no debt and £50m in the bank.
With no debt and money in the bank we can afford to keep onto our good players and if we have to sell some because they have outgrown us then we can invest in players to get us back up. Its what happened last time we went down where we kept a lot of players and were able to spend what was a lot of money at the time for us and the Championship on Gray who was key to getting us up that season.
If we go down and sell all our best players to pay off the debt and lower the wage bill then the chances of us being in a position to bounce back is a lot less likely.
Now all the above is based on going down and that might not happen. My view is we are less likely to go down under the new ownership than under Garlick so I can understand for some people that being braver and rolling the dice to stay up is a preferred option.
I just remember over the last 5 or 6 years how one of the things most Burnley fans stood behind was that w are going to go down eventually and when we do lets not end up like a Bolton or a Portsmouth. Well rolling the dice does now put us in a position whereby a few bad decisions and some mistakes thats where we could end up.
In summary for me it seems that we are taking a bit of a risk that we can leverage the club in the short term to build for a better and stronger future but at the risk of if we do go down we may run into some serious financial trouble.
How it will pan out who knows and which one of the two options you prefer is down to personal preference. Im still no real feeling or care for which of the two strategys I prefer so I really am the archetypal wait and see person but the bit I like is the discussion and debate. Whether it be the interesting sensible stuff, the people who are either ridiculously positive or ridiculously negative or those who just like a good old argument it definitely makes this board a bit more interesting to read
I know that very well Bill, if I didn't before this thread has made it really clear, so for you 2 top 10's and a 7th place are not enough or don't count, you just want to see Barcelona type football and not Burnley like football, like any business its all about results.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:48 pmYou may find this hard to believe, but some of us aren't really interested in off-field activities.
.
We like on-field performance, and if that improved so would the finances.
If shirt sales and sponsorship deals are the way to replace the reportedly "missing" £50m we'll have a very long wait.
Unfortunately for you, off field and on field need to work hand in hand for longevity in this league.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:48 pmYou may find this hard to believe, but some of us aren't really interested in off-field activities.
.
We like on-field performance, and if that improved so would the finances.
If shirt sales and sponsorship deals are the way to replace the reportedly "missing" £50m we'll have a very long wait.
Now that is information no one else including the press has been able to get hold of so far - well doneKateR wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:50 pmI was informed by someone I have no reason to doubt, that AP's personal wealth is in the low 100's of $millions and that he knew him personally, while there is a lot of unknowns and risk let's not make things up about the new owners not having enough to buy the shares if they wished, because none of us know that. It's just another part of the magical mystery tour we have embarked on in 2021.
I know that very well Bill, if I didn't before this thread has made it really clear, so for you 2 top 10's and a 7th place are not enough or don't count, you just want to see Barcelona type football and not Burnley like football, like any business its all about results.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:48 pmYou may find this hard to believe, but some of us aren't really interested in off-field activities.
.
We like on-field performance, and if that improved so would the finances.
If shirt sales and sponsorship deals are the way to replace the reportedly "missing" £50m we'll have a very long wait.
its merely a unsubstantiated rumor though, so no one should be saying it as a fact, which is why I have hesitated to post that, which I have known since the early days of this threadChester Perry wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:59 pmNow that is information no one else including the press has been able to get hold of so far - well done
Change has happened and we are financially worse off, are people supposed to be delighted with that?GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:29 pmI haven't missed anything.
Their long term plan is to increase revenue, thus giving the manager more money to invest in the squad etc.
That wasn't going to happen under the previous owners, that much was clear and something had to change.
Change has happened and now we have people not happy with what could happen.
The two go hand in hand.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:48 pmYou may find this hard to believe, but some of us aren't really interested in off-field activities.
.
We like on-field performance, and if that improved so would the finances.
If shirt sales and sponsorship deals are the way to replace the reportedly "missing" £50m we'll have a very long wait.
Sorry, Kate,KateR wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:00 pmI know that very well Bill, if I didn't before this thread has made it really clear, so for you 2 top 10's and a 7th place are not enough or don't count, you just want to see Barcelona type football and not Burnley like football, like any business its all about results.
Yes there is no quick fix, 100% agree with you, there are two sides to all clubs, the playing/on-field side, not changed one jot in my opinion from the takeover, for better or worse, if I measure against the last few years and windows. Then there is the business side, which I think this thread is all about in reality, that has definitely changed. Don't get me wrong, both are intertwined and aach will affect the other, I just hope the business side effects improvement in the playing side, eventually because we agree it won't be quick.
Most on the pitch focused fans want to see investment to improve the squad and the playing style, that is impossible without the finance understanding how all that works and why helps you at least acknowledge the challenges the club faces. That is how I got down the rabbit hole that is the MMT threadboatshed bill wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:17 pmSorry, Kate,
no disrespect,
I just feel that all this financial talk, most of which goes straight over the head of the average fan (myself included), blurs the fact that the whole point of this football club should be on pitch activity.
Sponsorship, shirt sales, software sales are the byproducts, let's hope the club doesn't turn into some sporting hypermarket
I've got to be honest and say that seems very surprising. Up until a year ago he was working at Citibank in a role that wouldn't have that kind of remuneration.KateR wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:50 pmI think what you are missing is that a lot of people and businesses don't want to use their own money for numerous things and often have funds tied up in other investments that would results in penalties if pulled early or a loss for that business in which they have used actual cash for.
I was informed by someone I have no reason to doubt, that AP's personal wealth is in the low 100's of $millions and that he knew him personally, while there is a lot of unknowns and risk let's not make things up about the new owners not having enough to buy the shares if they wished, because none of us know that. It's just another part of the magical mystery tour we have embarked on in 2021.
Moan when the money isn't being spent.
Well, had it not been there they couldn't have "bought" the club, could they?GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:41 pmMoan when the money isn't being spent.
Moan when the money is used to get new owners in so they can move the club forward.
Honestly, I'm past giving a toss if people are delighted with it or not.
KateR, amongst others, has explained why having it sat in the bank doing nothing isn't necessarily a good thing.
So you believe using £100M+ of the clubs money to get new owners is a good investment? We could've bought some serious players with that and been in the same situation.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:41 pmMoan when the money isn't being spent.
Moan when the money is used to get new owners in so they can move the club forward.
Honestly, I'm past giving a toss if people are delighted with it or not.
KateR, amongst others, has explained why having it sat in the bank doing nothing isn't necessarily a good thing.
I understand what you're saying and as I said in the first few pages of this thread months ago I was very skeptical that ALK could pull the deal off but they did, I'm skeptical about the business model and hope they prove me wrong again, like you and others I did what checks I could regarding ALK/MSD UK Holdings et al, all of wish fueled my skeptical view. The person I talked to I have been dealing with for almost a year, I certainly know who he is and he works in a very large global investment company, we did have a F2F and discussed business and other things. He mentioned he knew him but had never met him, I know his company had a JV with MSD Capital and bought something together, he could be trying to sound like he is in the know or just throwing something out to impress, although I have no idea why he would try to do that. As I said an unsubstantiated rumor regarding his worth and I have zero proof regarding any of it as a fact, except I do know for a fact that they did business with MDS Capital as it is in the public domain. AP of course is not nor has been part of MSD Capital to the best of my knowledge, so I think you're right to be surprised.
Blackburn, Bournemouth, Brighton, Bolton and Boro were all purchased by people using their own money.boatshed bill wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:59 pmWell, had it not been there they couldn't have "bought" the club, could they?
should rename that thread the Chester Perry BibleChester Perry wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:21 pmMost on the pitch focused fans want to see investment to improve the squad and the playing style, that is impossible without the finance understanding how all that works and why helps you at least acknowledge the challenges the club faces. That is how I got down the rabbit hole that is the MMT thread
Sanctum Sanctorum
Their plan needs Burnley to remain in the PL and for the short term SD to remain in situ.KateR wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:31 pmI'm not sure anyone is actually saying that, what they are saying is that a group of astute businessmen believe there there is more than enough untapped millions plus other forms of generating revenue out there beyond the loan interest and paying it off. Not only are they saying it and believing it they formulated a plan to prove it and put at the minimum there own reputations on the line. Whether it works or not is for sometime in the future when we can all be financial experts in either knowing it would never work or in that we knew there was nothing (well not a lot) to worry about. I think it's blatantly obvious that shirt sales will not cut it alone and that is not the cornerstone of the plan, it was just a simple example, the more crucial parts no one knows about, remember what AP said, be prepared to be amazed, it's like a magishow.
Wigan got an FA cup, relegation and one of the longest administrations in Football history (if not the longest) up until the summer most would tell you it was worth it - some may still think itGodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:14 pmBlackburn, Bournemouth, Brighton, Bolton and Boro were all purchased by people using their own money.
Every single one of them has wracked up tens of millions of £££ of debt with no discernable means of paying that money off and I think it's only Rovers that got a trophy out of it.
Our owners have borrowed etc and the difference with borrowing is that money HAS to be paid back or they lose ownership of the club.
When owners use their own money there doesn't appear to be an urgency to worry about sustainability.
Our new lot have to make the club self sustainable whilst growing the revenue to keep the club in the PL and reasonably competitive and improving the style of football etc.
To this end they've kept on Mike and John who've got experience of making the club self sustaining but with a smaller budget, plus Mike and John can ensure they'll get their money so this is also in their interests for it to work.
Eh?
That's gone on so long it barely registers on my radar anymoreChester Perry wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:34 pmWigan got an FA cup, relegation and one of the longest administrations in Football history (if not the longest) up until the summer most would tell you it was worth it - some may still think it
he is also caught up in the Hong Kong/China cultural clashGodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:05 pmThat's gone on so long it barely registers on my radar anymore
Same with Brum, got a cup didn't they and it all fell apart from there.
Isn't their owner still locked up, Yeung?
Must admit I have been thinking that recently. All looks a bit like Dyche is counting the days of his contract down. He will do his best because he is a professional character but I can’t help but think he’s on the way out.
Not at all I am merely saying what it feels like to me. Apologies it differs to your view.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:59 pmI love it when people start seeing things in a way that suits their outlook.
Suddenly become body language or vocal experts.
Yes I have been very much of the persuasion that Dyche will stay here for the long run. Recently my opinion has completely changed, I honestly think he will either leave this summer to Palace or see out his contract.
You may be right.Newcastleclaret93 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:06 pmYes I have been very much of the persuasion that Dyche will stay here for the long run. Recently my opinion has completely changed, I honestly think he will either leave this summer to Palace or see out his contract.
I know DJ will disagree but I think he is probably a bit gutted with the takeover. He’s grafted his balls of for 8 years getting the club into the position it was in the summer. Only for the rug to be pulled under his feet.
I hope I am wrong because if he did leave I would be absolutely gutted.
we all have thoughts and opinions, sometimes they change day to day, however one thing I would remind you is that MDS put money into Sunderland and Derby as well as Southampton and Burnley. ALK at first wanted to take over Sheffield, a championship club and statement from ALK said they believe the model they will use will work equally as well in the championship as it will in the PL, so according to them it does not need them to remain in the PL but of course it works better/faster if that happens.
I think that is probably very exciting for a manager. However I just think Dyche is probably thinking after 8 years does he really want his success to be based on whether or not the club can development young talent over the next 5 years. He could literally leave to Palace this summer where they would just go out and sign ready made young talent (like Eze for example).KateR wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:29 pmwe all have thoughts and opinions, sometimes they change day to day, however one thing I would remind you is that MDS put money into Sunderland and Derby as well as Southampton and Burnley. ALK at first wanted to take over Sheffield, a championship club and statement from ALK said they believe the model they will use will work equally as well in the championship as it will in the PL, so according to them it does not need them to remain in the PL but of course it works better/faster if that happens.
I won't pretend to have the foggiest idea what SD is thinking but he made it very clear he was not happy the way things were under the previous owners and the recruitment policy.
I will say, plus what others have said including ex players and pundits, he looked to be really enjoying himself and didn't look like a man worrying about relegation. We will see what summer brings because my crystal ball is very cloudy, I believe he will be very aligned to the youth and recruitment plus development of the training infrastructure and new raw talent he and his team can mold into first team players. Personally I would guess that would be the ultimate attraction to him, but I don't know him, just a counter thought to yours.
Definitely different kind of interview for sure
for who - I doubt is is the core of the strategy for the club, the technology is focused on unsigned and unattached talent, not the talent within the Academy/League systemkentonclaret wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:03 pmIf ALK Capital have purchased shares in 2 London-based football technology companies (AiScout and Player LENS) and still can't identify players of potential to sign then we are really screwed, since that is the main core of their strategy.
KateR wrote: ↑Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:29 pmwe all have thoughts and opinions, sometimes they change day to day, however one thing I would remind you is that MDS put money into Sunderland and Derby as well as Southampton and Burnley. ALK at first wanted to take over Sheffield, a championship club and statement from ALK said they believe the model they will use will work equally as well in the championship as it will in the PL, so according to them it does not need them to remain in the PL but of course it works better/faster if that happens.
I won't pretend to have the foggiest idea what SD is thinking but he made it very clear he was not happy the way things were under the previous owners and the recruitment policy.
I will say, plus what others have said including ex players and pundits, he looked to be really enjoying himself and didn't look like a man worrying about relegation. We will see what summer brings because my crystal ball is very cloudy, I believe he will be very aligned to the youth and recruitment plus development of the training infrastructure and new raw talent he and his team can mold into first team players. Personally I would guess that would be the ultimate attraction to him, but I don't know him, just a counter thought to yours.
Definitely different kind of interview for sure
they are pertinent to point out in terms of MSD UK Holdings providing loans when people try to point to BFC and our PL status, it didn't matter to them how bad they were/are, they were willing to loan to them and they didn't and don't want ownership/shares, just give us our money back plus interest.
.. Burnley are not better off, unless these guys are true to their word.....Wile E Coyote wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:18 amhttps://twitter.com/talkSPORT/status/13 ... R3-m9rXWRg
If you really want to know my wife has fallen for Alan Pace’s charm/spin and naively thinks we will be challenging Man City in a couple of years.claretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:13 amIs that you logged in as you ?
Your Mrs logged in as you ?
Your opinion ?
Your Mrs' opinion but using your username ?