O/T I walked through the town centre yesterday...

[RalphCoatesComb]

How sad.

You can see that work has been done to repair the footways and tidy the place up a bit but, the shops

Bookies, Charity Shop, Building Society, Coffee Shop, Cafe, Bookies, Charity Shop, Building Society, two Romanians rummaging through a skip, Coffee Shop, Empty... etc etc

Burtons is closed, with blacked-out windows (just as well given my promised, had we been relegated )

Nearly as sad and tired as Bolton town centre that, some years ago, was one of the best in the North.

Yes, there were people enjoying their coffee in the hazy sunshine, trying to make the most of a bad job.

The answer to the tired town centre? On a postcard, or empty fag packet, to

"People with lots of money to invest"

3rd Dirty Doorstep

BURNLEY

BB11 1AA

P.S. This is NOT a political thread and would prefer that it remains "apolitical"

[tim_noone]

Same in Blackpool..

[RalphCoatesComb]

Same in Blackpool..

Blackpool. There's another place that has gone to the dogs

[djemba-djemba]

That’s where online shopping has got us.

I did exactly the same on Wednesday. Went to Burtons to pick up a pair of shoes I needed for Thursday and it had closed down! Walked round to Santander to make a bank transaction and that was also closed (albeit temporarily).

You can’t blame the shops, if nobody is going in them they must cost a fortune to run and staff.

[superdimitri]

It's just a growing trend everywhere. I don't think there's really an answer. The future is probably out of town shopping centres that can be shared by the population of a few towns. Town centres as we know them are best downsized so there's not empty shop after shop.

[wilks_bfc]

That’s where online shopping has got us.

I did exactly the same on Wednesday. Went to Burtons to pick up a pair of shoes I needed for Thursday and it had closed down! Walked round to Santander to make a bank transaction and that was also closed (albeit temporarily).

You can’t blame the shops, if nobody is going in them they must cost a fortune to run and staff.

I’d much prefer to clothes shop in person than online but the choice of “men shops” in Burnley is woeful, Burtons was the only place that had a decent amount of options but even then didn’t always have what I wanted.

Th men’s section in Next is the same size as my spare bedroom and even in M&S the men’s section seems an afterthought

[taio]

A slow death which will be accelerated by the effects of the obvious. Some town centres will shrink considerably in time and be replaced by housing.

[willsclarets]

Town centres like Burnley will die if they don't rethink what a town centre is or provides in an Internet age. Obviously covid has accelerated things, but it's a taste of the future if nothing is done.
My feeling is that you almost want to think backwards, to a time when town centres were full of local merchants. The town needs to provide something the Internet doesn't; specialist and independent goods. Shops like Burton have no chance in future town centres like Burnley. Chain retail might survive to a certain degree in cities I suppose.

[tim_noone]

That’s where online shopping has got us.

I did exactly the same on Wednesday. Went to Burtons to pick up a pair of shoes I needed for Thursday and it had closed down! Walked round to Santander to make a bank transaction and that was also closed (albeit temporarily).

You can’t blame the shops, if nobody is going in them they must cost a fortune to run and staff.

The Cashless society objective by Whoever and the Sheep buying into the trend thinking it's a marvelous idea are part of the problem with what's unfolding. Having things delivered to your door 24/7 is Fcuking Lazy!

[Burnley1989]

The new Tessutti shop is a big plus for the top centre, I’d be surprised if it lasts a few years though as it’s quite a big shop.

It’s aimed at a certain market though, your Burton’s and M&S shopper is unlikely to shop there as whilst there’s some quality clothing, it’s all massively overpriced to the average person

[willsclarets]

The Cashless society objective by Whoever and the Sheep buying into the trend thinking it's a marvelous idea are part of the problem with what's unfolding. Having things delivered to your door 24/7 is Fcuking Lazy!

It's not lazy it's convenient, you can't blame people for not using the town if it's not giving them something a clock of a button doesn't.

[RammyClaret61]

Then in a few years time, the very people doing all their shopping online will be asking, what the hell happened to the town centre?

[willsclarets]

It needs a drastic idea. Perhaps they should have a massive open market day in the town, with there being prizes of empty shops being given away or subsidised for a year rent free by local govt. Invite anyone locally or further afield who wants to sell anything; clothes, flowers, food and drink, crockery etc etc to set up a stall, create some design work to show off a brand. People could vote on an app, to determine which sellers they'd like to see have a shop in the town, and those sellers would have a year paying no rent to try and make it work.

[wilks_bfc]

The new Tessutti shop is a big plus for the top centre, I’d be surprised if it lasts a few years though as it’s quite a big shop.

It’s aimed at a certain market though, your Burton’s and M&S shopper is unlikely to shop there as whilst there’s some quality clothing, it’s all massively overpriced to the average person

And that’s the issue.
I wouldn’t say Tessutti is aimed at me, but I wouldn’t say I’m at the M&S stage just yet either
There is no currently no option for the inbetween

[Loyalclaret]

Don't disagree with your assessment but the town centre feels busy at the moment, footfall monitors apparently backing it up.

The town realises people, especially younger people, come into towns/cities now to socialise over coffee and leisure activities like the cinema. Guess that is why Pioneer is happening and the chain restaurants that should come with it.

Lost too many shops and some existing retailers are worried. Walking through town a few times a day I have noticed a big increase in drunks/homeless/beggars, there are setting up drinking on benches near McDonald's early doors.

[beddie]

It’s the same in most towns now. We all have to take some responsibility for it, internet shopping being the main culprit. We’ve the same thing in Skipton, some lovely buildings - a lot of shop fronts remain empty, most are now owned by large companies, bizarrely they still want astronomical rents, yet are not prepared to reduce those rents in order to see a return. As a child living up the dales it used to be an exciting time if you went to town on the bus, so much choice. The stalls do help being there three days a week but the majority of shops are either cafes or charity related. If the greedy landlords would relent and business rates were considerably reduced there might be a chance but at the moment it’s gloomy nationwide.

[Siddo]

The council has done an excellent job in improving the town centre over recent years. There aren't that many towns of our size that have a Marks and Spencers, a large Next, Primark etc. Shoppers habits have changed and the council has tried to reflect this and tried to cater to these changes and to all tastes.
However, online shopping is a real competitor and the old adage is true, use it or lose it.

[Woodleyclaret]

Reading is the same all the major stores have shut but then the rentals in the centre are close to £42,000 pa as speculator landlords screw the shops over. After that theres £2,000 pm rates

[TheFamilyCat]

It needs a drastic idea. Perhaps they should have a massive open market day in the town, with there being prizes of empty shops being given away or subsidised for a year rent free by local govt. Invite anyone locally or further afield who wants to sell anything; clothes, flowers, food and drink, crockery etc etc to set up a stall, create some design work to show off a brand. People could vote on an app, to determine which sellers they'd like to see have a shop in the town, and those sellers would have a year paying no rent to try and make it work.

I nice idea in principle.

Maybe the council could do deals with the landlord of empty shops to do short term rents for pop-up shops to see how independent retailers fare on the high street with lower risks to them.

[beddie]

Another very sad day today with the last Debenhams stores closing, those and BHS are sadly missed, by me anyway.

[ClaretDiver]

It needs a drastic idea. Perhaps they should have a massive open market day in the town, with there being prizes of empty shops being given away or subsidised for a year rent free by local govt. Invite anyone locally or further afield who wants to sell anything; clothes, flowers, food and drink, crockery etc etc to set up a stall, create some design work to show off a brand. People could vote on an app, to determine which sellers they'd like to see have a shop in the town, and those sellers would have a year paying no rent to try and make it work.

This is not an entirely bad idea....if you could replicate things like Etsy, similar, but on a retail vision with minimal rates/subsidised rent for 'collaborative' premises then this could bring a whole new dimension to the town. Think 'Aflecks Palace' on a spread out town basis....

However, like I say this would require massive investment by the town/government on a large scale but ti could regenerate a lot of town centres....

[duncandisorderly]

When I was younger I could go to Benns or Woolworths to buy toys, then a bit older going to the music shops - there was an Our Price, HMV and a big one in what used to be a big a Pizza Hut, I booked my first concert tickets at a music shop that I think became the pawn shop (?) - then on to Dixons/Currys or whatever to by CD Walkman type things or computer games. There was at least two, maybe three proper sports shops (Cockers, JJB and JD iirc), WH Smiths for your school stuff and a River Island where you went to buy your mum something for her birthday.

Obviously as you get older the need for certain things diminishes, but there is nothing on that small list of mine that hasn't either been made virtually obsolete by the passage of time or isn't done better by the internet.

It's not the shops fault, it's not onlines fault, it's not the customers fault - it's a combination of all factors and the only way to regenerate town centre shopping is to tax online retailers and subsidise bricks and mortar retailers. You have to give customers a reason to go to the shops than have the shop go to them.
If left unchecked then Burnley will become a sea of coffee shops before they ultimately kill each other off.

[Loyalclaret]

Someone may have more knowledge but I believe there are generous offers on some town center properties, for example in Charter Walk but the rates are expensive.

Agree with Siddo that main walks through town have been improved to a good standard recently and it continues at the moment down the bottom end of town near M & S and shortly Primark.

[Dy1geo]

I do think Burnley is a more inviting town to shop/visit especially with the new paving, benches and planters.

An idea for town centres is for Govts to allow Councils to set a certain area aside as a type of “Freeport” for independent retailers (Certain criteria as to define an Independent retailer could be drawn up) with no Business Rates, subsidised rent etc this would mean that each town would have a unique independent trading area and not be an identikit of another one. Large retailers in other parts of towns would benefit from increasing footfall.

[NottsClaret]

No point trying to ‘save the high street’, it’s gone. Like the horse and cart or the local paper. Fine for a bit of nostalgia but the world moves on, don’t see the value in pouring time and money into something that’s never coming back.

Cafes, residential flats, gyms.. anything like that. But shopping in town is done, move on. It’s not sad, things change so just work out what to do next.

[Paulclaret]

It's not just Burnley. Bournemouth may have a fabulous seafront and beach but the town centre is an absolute dump, full of empty shops with homeless sleeping in doorways.

[tim_noone]

Then in a few years time, the very people doing all their shopping online will be asking, what the hell happened to the town centre?

Exactly

[ksrclaret]

So incredibly sad. At some point we’re going to have to decide what sort of society we actually want to live in because it seems like everything will be done online if we don’t get a grip.

I’ve never understood the attraction to buying clothes online, though. You have to order things in 2/3 different sizes, spend 2/3 times as much in the first instance, send the ill-fitting items back and wait several days for them to receive the return and another few days for the refund to come through... trying a few things on in the shop was a far more efficient way of shopping and a hell of a lot better for the environment too.

[huw.Y.WattfromWare]

It will be a strange world post-covid. Millions working from home, so offices will be vacant as well. Most large companies will down-size.
The roads will be empty as far less will be travelling.
School kids can safely ride their bikes to school again.
I’ve no idea what will become of town centres but they could start with homeless shelters.
Then convert some into affordable living.

[pushpinpussy]

How sad.

You can see that work has been done to repair the footways and tidy the place up a bit but, the shops

Bookies, Charity Shop, Building Society, Coffee Shop, Cafe, Bookies, Charity Shop, Building Society, two Romanians rummaging through a skip, Coffee Shop, Empty... etc etc

Burtons is closed, with blacked-out windows (just as well given my promised, had we been relegated )

Nearly as sad and tired as Bolton town centre that, some years ago, was one of the best in the North.

Yes, there were people enjoying their coffee in the hazy sunshine, trying to make the most of a bad job.

The answer to the tired town centre? On a postcard, or empty fag packet, to

"People with lots of money to invest"

3rd Dirty Doorstep

BURNLEY

BB11 1AA

P.S. This is NOT a political thread and would prefer that it remains "apolitical"

i hope you spent some money in these shops to show some support instead of coming on here slagging the place off and spreading the usual negativity.

[Jakubclaret]

Exactly

I’ve yet to see any online retailers offering the virtual physical experience of trying garments on prior to purchase or sampling aftershave or perfume, I realise you can return within cooling off periods but you are faffing about at the post office & with couriers, a need will always exist for certain shops on the high street because some people like the real life experience online can’t offer, in some circumstances you simply cannot beat actually going to the shop & buying a pair of trainers as a eg & walking out with the right 1s & the exact right size fitting, correct me if I’m wrong but teleporting a pair of feet through a computer screen isn’t possible yet.

[matucana]

It will be interesting to see how the North fares following the promised levelling up agenda. Northern towns have been ignored for far too long. Transfers of hundreds of Civil servants to these locations will be of little help. Rent and business rate support would be a good start.

[jrgbfc]

The future for town centres might have to be in affordable housing. If you have a decent selection of leisure facilities like gyms, restaurants, and coffee shops etc you could turn them into places young people want to live.

[Garnerssoap]

Local government(not just Burnley) and landlords have destroyed the urban high street. It’s clear now who the obvious beneficiaries have been of these policies though.

[arise_sir_charge]

I think a few people on this thread have hit on the problem, particularly in a place like Burnley.

The town centre is simply too big and too spread out and Pioneer will only further this in my opinion.

If the town centre should be more concentrated, reducing the footprint of it by say 50%, you could create a multi use area that could be great to visit. Shops, bars, coffee shops; restaurants etc all close together creating a natural buzz and a feel that it’s busy.

However that’s a massive project costing a huge amount of money so very unlikely.

[bfcjg]

Town centres we knew are finished, they were from a time when e didn't have the internet, out of town developments easy access to cars etc.
They will end up as entertainment hubs, be that pubs,clubs,coffee shops restaurants, a few craft shops and more shops converted to flats and quirky houses.

[Burnley Ace]

If you want the council to reduce business rates etc then you have to be prepared to pay more tax, the money has to come from somewhere.

[CaptJohn]

Chester is going the same way. Debenhams closed it's doors last Wednesday and anyone who knows the city will know that it was always known as "Browns of Chester" and had a prominent position with a front on Eastgate and rear into the Grosvenor shopping arcade. It really has ripped the heart out of the city. Lots of empty shops and lots of homeless folk living in empty shop doorways. From my perspective the old town centres need to evolve into what people want and that will mean a lot of shops will need to be converted into residential units and the surrounding areas made suitable for residential usage. Whether we like it or not online shopping is here to stay and it really is a case of move on, or get left behind.

[Spijed]

With regards to refurbishment, why have they made the pavements wider in Padiham outside the town hall and library?

It's not as though the place is inundated with shoppers.

[Quickenthetempo]

If the town centre does shut then the town will have even more poverty.
It's likely the business rates will match the entire council tax it receives from it's residents. Gone.
100s of jobs gone.

And all the online money going abroad to Amazon etc who don't pay much tax here.

We will soon have a country of mainly housing where nobody leaves and everything is delivered. How sad.

[bfcjg]

With regards to refurbishment, why have they made the pavements wider in Padiham outside the town hall and library?

It's not as though the place is inundated with shoppers.

Keeps the vomit off the road.

[ClaretMov]

The problem with most of Burnley Town centre is its owned by about 2 or 3 people most of the big buildings like Burtons are owned by a women and the rent is astronomical.

A friend of mine owned a bar/Nightclub and the rent forced him to close, coupled with the younger end going out at 1am after drinking at home first he said they paid a few quid to get in and if lucky they bought one drink all night they went just to listen to music, he said the money they took didn't even pay for the door staff never mind the bar staff or the rent.

When I went out in the 80s and 90s people come from Manchester for a night out to places like Angels now people from Burnley don't go out in Burnley it's full of two can van dammes wanting a fight, I have 3 children in their 20's and not one of them go out in Burnley because of the trouble or some low life asking if they want to buy drug's.

Burnley Council didn't help smaller bars by letting some clubs have a licence to stay open until 8am no wonder younger ones didn't go out until the early hrs of the morning at 1 or 2 am around the time when clubs used to close this killed off loads of bars like walkabout and they pulled out of Burnley.

[Burnley1989]

With regards to refurbishment, why have they made the pavements wider in Padiham outside the town hall and library?

It's not as though the place is inundated with shoppers.

I was day dreaming when I drove through last week for the first time in about 12 months, I nearly mounted the curb, really caught me out

As you say, pretty pointless but looks alright

[mikeS]

You'd think that once the pandemics over shopping in high streets will make a comeback. People will want to get out again after being locked down for over twelve months. With some online shopping you don't always get stuff delivered to your house, you've to pick it up in store anyway (M&S), its not always the colour or shade it showed on the website, when you feel it the material quality's poor, and you can't try whatever it is you've ordered on to see if your bum looks big in it. They said e-books would take over from paperbacks. They didn't.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Council rates and landlord rents are the first problem.
Then dealing with the Internet rivals who have less overheads and can offer competitive prices.

Add in the drive to make edge of town shopping centres with the large outlet stores over the last 20-30 yrs and it's no surprise to see town centres disappearing.

They're generally littered with charity, gambling, coffee and fast food shops.

Supermarkets morphed from food only shops into one stop mega shops that have everything from food, to clothing to electrical items and even banking.

Then successive governments failed to catch up to a changing world and change the tax laws so companies like Amazon can dodge a lot and make millions whilst crushing competitors.

What exactly do you need from a town centre/high street?
Probably not a great deal if we are all honest.

Having to deal with shop staff who can't be arsed, or idiots wandering around blocking the aisles with their trollies /pushchairs etc whilst chatting to their mates or failing to control their horde of children isn't really that appealing to someone when they can buy online and get same or next day.
Then you've got thieves trying to pick your pocket, especially in the bigger cities.
Even retail parks present the problem of people who're simply incapable of parking within the lines...

Covid showed how selfish/stupid people can be when out shopping as they're incapable of following really simple guidelines/one way systems in shops
It also helped speed up the process of taking people into the world of online shopping instead.

Books - Kindle, takes up less space, wider variety, better prices and some authors do their first book for free, especially if its the start of a series.

Music - YouTube, Amazon, Spotify etc negates the need for physical CD's, records etc unless you're a purist.
Personally I pay £7.99 a month for youtube so I can stream directly to one of my cars and I can listen to lots of remixes done my some really talented people who aren't, or can't, be mainstream.

Films/TV - again why collect films on DvD etc when pretty much everything can be watched or purchased on line?
No need to have a physical collection that needs to be updated with the latest format.

Clothes - there are online stores that offer free returns, saves the need to go into a shop and try things on, but the majority of people have a favoured clothes shop so they already know which size is correct for that particular shop so they can order online from there.

Food - grocery can be delivered, same with take out food and other stuff like fags/booze.

Gaming - the likes of Steam, Xbox and Sony regularly offer great deals online, inc the ability to oay x amount a month to play a wide range of games without actually committing yourself to buying them, making physical shops redundant.

I don't need many actual normal shops, simply because they offer me very little, same for millions of other people and many of them aren't open at accessible times during the week so people finish work and the only places they can usually shop are online or at a retail park.

[arise_sir_charge]

The extra space outside the town hall in Padiham is for the civic reception when Padiham win the Ribblesdale cricket league.

[ClaretMov]

Council rates and landlord rents are the first problem.
Then dealing with the Internet rivals who have less overheads and can offer competitive prices.

Add in the drive to make edge of town shopping centres with the large outlet stores over the last 20-30 yrs and it's no surprise to see town centres disappearing.

They're generally littered with charity, gambling, coffee and fast food shops.

Supermarkets morphed from food only shops into one stop mega shops that have everything from food, to clothing to electrical items and even banking.

Then successive governments failed to catch up to a changing world and change the tax laws so companies like Amazon can dodge a lot and make millions whilst crushing competitors.

What exactly do you need from a town centre/high street?
Probably not a great deal if we are all honest.

Having to deal with shop staff who can't be arsed, or idiots wandering around blocking the aisles with their trollies /pushchairs etc whilst chatting to their mates or failing to control their horde of children isn't really that appealing to someone when they can buy online and get same or next day.
Then you've got thieves trying to pick your pocket, especially in the bigger cities.
Even retail parks present the problem of people who're simply incapable of parking within the lines...

Covid showed how selfish/stupid people can be when out shopping as they're incapable of following really simple guidelines/one way systems in shops
It also helped speed up the process of taking people into the world of online shopping instead.

Books - Kindle, takes up less space, wider variety, better prices and some authors do their first book for free, especially if its the start of a series.

Music - YouTube, Amazon, Spotify etc negates the need for physical CD's, records etc unless you're a purist.
Personally I pay £7.99 a month for youtube so I can stream directly to one of my cars and I can listen to lots of remixes done my some really talented people who aren't, or can't, be mainstream.

Films/TV - again why collect films on DvD etc when pretty much everything can be watched or purchased on line?
No need to have a physical collection that needs to be updated with the latest format.

Clothes - there are online stores that offer free returns, saves the need to go into a shop and try things on, but the majority of people have a favoured clothes shop so they already know which size is correct for that particular shop so they can order online from there.

Food - grocery can be delivered, same with take out food and other stuff like fags/booze.

Gaming - the likes of Steam, Xbox and Sony regularly offer great deals online, inc the ability to oay x amount a month to play a wide range of games without actually committing yourself to buying them, making physical shops redundant.

I don't need many actual normal shops, simply because they offer me very little, same for millions of other people and many of them aren't open at accessible times during the week so people finish work and the only places they can usually shop are online or at a retail park.

You absolutely 100% nailed it on the head, one of the best post's I've read on here in a long time.

[BleedingClaret]

How sad.

You can see that work has been done to repair the footways and tidy the place up a bit but, the shops

Bookies, Charity Shop, Building Society, Coffee Shop, Cafe, Bookies, Charity Shop, Building Society, two Romanians rummaging through a skip, Coffee Shop, Empty... etc etc

Burtons is closed, with blacked-out windows (just as well given my promised, had we been relegated )

Nearly as sad and tired as Bolton town centre that, some years ago, was one of the best in the North.

Yes, there were people enjoying their coffee in the hazy sunshine, trying to make the most of a bad job.

The answer to the tired town centre? On a postcard, or empty fag packet, to

"People with lots of money to invest"

3rd Dirty Doorstep

BURNLEY

BB11 1AA

P.S. This is NOT a political thread and would prefer that it remains "apolitical"

I blame Thatcher

[Quickenthetempo]

The extra space outside the town hall in Padiham is for the civic reception when Padiham win the Ribblesdale cricket league.

Unfortunately I think it's for the once a year light switch on at Christmas.

If they put it at the other side of the road they could have had outdoor seating for the cafe, pub and pizza place.

In reality it's just councils don't know how to spend grants properly.

[Boss Hogg]

Removing parking charges would be a good step. People need to be encouraged to go. Rates need reducing too. There is a place for some retailers and smaller independents along with activity based shops. Shopping is about being sociable and active too. Otherwise we’ll all become gormless morons who never interact physically and just stare into computer screens. it’s a sad day when we only ever buy online