I had a similar thought when I saw how much I'd written.

I had a similar thought when I saw how much I'd written.
Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:12 amMillions of years ago our ancestors all managed to survive with inventive ways without gas & electric & survived I realise things have moved on in the modern world we live in now, but throwing on a fleece & going out with a chainsaw/axe & collecting some wood shouldn’t be beyond some people to be resourceful yourself & kinder to the planet.
But without electric we wouldn’t be able to watch tv so how would we know who to vote for and have executed on your Saturday night tv programme?Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:12 amMillions of years ago our ancestors all managed to survive with inventive ways without gas & electric & survived I realise things have moved on in the modern world we live in now, but throwing on a fleece & going out with a chainsaw/axe & collecting some wood shouldn’t be beyond some people to be resourceful yourself & kinder to the planet.
Have you not seen the new range of equipment released by Sony, all tv + music streaming devices powered by burning wood. Comes with a guarantee it works in any cave as well.
Have you not seen all those environmentalists gluing themselves to the motorway demanding that people get out there with a chainsaw and chop down some trees?
I was with Utility point for my Gas and they owed me £100. EDF have just e-mailed to say they're picking up the contract and my credit should be restored by them.Burnley Ace wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:34 pmPeople’s Energy has stopped trading. I still owe them £50 as I left them last month!
OK, another go at responding to some of your question. I typed a response last night then when I tried to submit I'd already been logged out. So, this time it may be split into 2 or 3 posts.ClaretLoup wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:33 pmI really appreciate your detailed response to my post and we are fortunate enough to have such an esteemed expert as yourself commenting on this issue.
Whilst my knowledge of the energy industry is nowhere near as wide ranging as yours, I would like to take issue with your assertion that a state owned energy company would smother and inhibit all innovation in the green energy field.
Firstly if that were the case why would such a committed eco-warrior as Dale Vince be an advocate?
Secondly I do have some knowledge of green energy as I have some small trifling investments in waste conversion, tidal wave generation, pumped water schemes, and biomass energy. My experience is that these outfits struggle to raise capital and a huge amount of effort is expended on obtaining finance rather than developing the technology. State funding would smooth the path and also enable the tax payers to benefit from any successfully developed projects. Often their progress is hindered by cash flow.
Furthermore the state does develop technologies via their Catapult operations, the one to develop offshore technology is based in Blyth Northumberland. If market forces were so innovative and successful at this activity why does the Catapult exist?
Thirdly I also dealt with companies such as Vestas the Danish wind turbine manufacturers sadly they pulled out of their Uk plant on the IoW some years ago. Denmark are one of the countries leading the way in developing renewables and undergoing a massive switch from fossil fuels to renewables. In 2019 80% of their energy came from renewables. Admittedly I do not know a lot about the structure of the Danish Energy sector but from what I can make out the distribution network is state owned and the biggest company in the sector is DONG which I understand is 50% state owned. So does that square with your assertion that state ownership stifles innovation?
I know that EDF is the French state owned power generator and as you say a huge amount of French electricity is nuclear, however their tentacles have stretched over here to the UK and we buy a lot of French energy via the Interconnector so it is some what ironic that the free market has allowed a state owned foreign organisation impinge on the UK energy market? Not sure how strong they are on innovation in the renewables sector.
Part 2 - picking up from Catapults. Back in the early 1980s I was involved with a project that the National Enterprise Board (NEB) had set up under the Callaghan Labour gov't. The NEB had introduced/selected/appointed an engineering firm owned by a textile business as the project lead on a specialist metals project, i.e. one which had nothing to do with textiles, but maybe strong project management skills could deliver the project. The project had been running for a couple of years when I got involved. Yes, things had gone wrong and the simple facts were that the engineering firm weren't up to the job. Around the same time, I had a colleague who had previously been brought in as part of a team cleaning up the mess left when De Lorean Motors went "belly up." That was another NEB sponsored project. Then in 1984, I was asked to carry out a review of a state owned ship building company on the Tees. In an effort to keep their business going they'd extended their services to offering engineering services to 3rd parties. The ship builder's offices were still in the 1920s. There was a total absence of investment in the firm. They closed down a year or two later...ClaretLoup wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:33 pm
Furthermore the state does develop technologies via their Catapult operations, the one to develop offshore technology is based in Blyth Northumberland. If market forces were so innovative and successful at this activity why does the Catapult exist?
Thirdly I also dealt with companies such as Vestas the Danish wind turbine manufacturers sadly they pulled out of their Uk plant on the IoW some years ago. Denmark are one of the countries leading the way in developing renewables and undergoing a massive switch from fossil fuels to renewables. In 2019 80% of their energy came from renewables. Admittedly I do not know a lot about the structure of the Danish Energy sector but from what I can make out the distribution network is state owned and the biggest company in the sector is DONG which I understand is 50% state owned. So does that square with your assertion that state ownership stifles innovation?
I know that EDF is the French state owned power generator and as you say a huge amount of French electricity is nuclear, however their tentacles have stretched over here to the UK and we buy a lot of French energy via the Interconnector so it is some what ironic that the free market has allowed a state owned foreign organisation impinge on the UK energy market? Not sure how strong they are on innovation in the renewables sector.
My understanding of the current rules is that a new supplier will have to step up and you will get the same deal as you currently have with avro. If you are fixed price, your deal will continue to the end of your fixed price deal. If you are variable, then you will continue on the variable rate. However, the cap on variable rate deals is already due to go up on 1st October and that doesn't take into account the current very high prices.
I had a fixed price gas with utility point, set to expire in January. I have been moved to EDF’s standard tariff as they were appointed by ofgem, after utility points collapse.Paul Waine wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:08 pmMy understanding of the current rules is that a new supplier will have to step up and you will get the same deal as you currently have with avro. If you are fixed price, your deal will continue to the end of your fixed price deal. If you are variable, then you will continue on the variable rate. However, the cap on variable rate deals is already due to go up on 1st October and that doesn't take into account the current very high prices.
It’s been creeping up slowly for quite awhile & probably hit a level where it will stabilise the consumers won’t have any other choice than to suck up the costs inflicted because near enough everybody will be charging roughly the same, you can reduce things by being independently resourceful, it’ll hit families more who are likely to be in the house for longer, single people who work long hours hardly at home it’s either here nor there.kentonclaret wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:34 pmIt is widely predicted that Ofgem will increase the Energy Price Cap by as much as £280 next April as gas and electricity is currently being sold to customers at less than cost. The days of "Cheap" energy are over for the foreseeable future.
CBT wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:22 pmCheers Paul Waine i hope that's right because I understand it that the new supplier can put us on whatever tarrif they want and we'll need to contact them for a better one which will be by now considerably higher than what we're on present
Confusing abit but hopefully gas prices stabilise
Can't see it before next spring/summer
Only hope is avro don't go bust for me I think
Hi CBT, sorry, bad news, perhaps. It appears I'm wrong that you keep your existing fixed price deal until it expires. Reading Darthlaw's post it appears that a default supplier can move you to their standard tariff. My comments were based on much of the media reporting, but I'm more inclined to believe someone who has direct experience...Darthlaw wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:21 pmI had a fixed price gas with utility point, set to expire in January. I have been moved to EDF’s standard tariff as they were appointed by ofgem, after utility points collapse.
By my reckoning, my gas bills are set to increase by around 70% thanks to the great deal I was on vs the horrific price they are now. Luckily, my gas bill is relatively low, so I’ll be able to stand it but others won’t be so lucky.
Which is why that's not happening.kentonclaret wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:53 pmIt defies all logic that customers of the failed smaller energy firms would be able to retain their existing deals and enjoy cheap energy for the next 6 to 12 months. With hundreds of thousands of customers from these failing companies having to be bailed out by the larger energy firms the costs to them could be crippling without government assistance.
Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:12 pmMoney saving expert was saying Igloo going bust which is a big one.
Not one I have heard of though.
I switched to them recently and just before the energy crisis started.Quickenthetempo wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:12 pmMoney saving expert was saying Igloo going bust which is a big one.
Not one I have heard of though.
You could of course say that for many industries.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:44 pmWhist it wouldn't be good for my career we would be better off re-nationalising the Energy industry.
Competition has grown over the last 10-15 years to such an extent that vulnerable, poor and elderly customers who have a high cost to serve value are being disenfranchised within the energy market.
Even the big companies who have license obligation to accept all customers are finding ways to legally degrade the service they provide and causing a lot of misery that could be avoided if it was state run.
Adequate access to Gas and Electricity is in my opinion far too much of a basic right to be exposed to the capitalist free market in the world we live in today. As a result I fear many families will go either hungry or cold this winter and many of our older generation will not make it at all.
Im just speaking about the Energy industry because I have first hand experience of nearly 20 years and have watched what has happened in that time. I am not just talking with regards to this very recent situation but about the way the industry has changed as a whole but exceptional cases like this really highlight the problem.Hipper wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:03 amYou could of course say that for many industries.
It seems to me (from what I've read) that the fault is in the regulation of the business.
In any case this spike in gas prices is temporary surely so we will just ride the storm as we did with the oil price spike in 2011.
I would have thought it unlikely that 'vulnerable, poor and elderly customers' would have the sophistication to change accounts to these new energy companies, the ones that seem most vulnerable at the moment.
Hi ClaretLoup, have you seen the report on Avro Energy and all the other companies that the two owners/directors had? To quote the Times: "Avro Energy sent money to firms run by owners."ClaretLoup wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:33 pmI really appreciate your detailed response to my post and we are fortunate enough to have such an esteemed expert as yourself commenting on this issue.
Whilst my knowledge of the energy industry is nowhere near as wide ranging as yours, I would like to take issue with your assertion that a state owned energy company would smother and inhibit all innovation in the green energy field.
Firstly if that were the case why would such a committed eco-warrior as Dale Vince be an advocate?
Welcome to Octopus Energy - they are reported to be the successful bidder for Avro's 580,000 customers.
My Avro payments were £73 a month, and i was £330 in credit. I expect Octopus (or any new supplier) will mean payments are going to be very close to the price cap based on our usage, although i'm not 100% how the price cap works, however would mean about £35-£40 extra per month.
Octopus (and others) will be comparing the loss they will suffer on taking on Avro's (and other failed energy suppliers) customers with the acquisition cost they incur when the pick up the customers from (i) price comparison sites and (ii) the cash back they give to existing customers and shared with the new customer when a new customer signs up. I think Octopus was paying £100 x 2 for recommendations from existing customers.kentonclaret wrote: ↑Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:48 pmAll of the larger Energy suppliers (Octopus included) taking on hundreds of thousands of customers from failing firms are doing so at considerable cost to themselves since they will be selling gas and electricity to these customers at a loss (even though these customers will be paying more).
All of these larger companies are playing the long game knowing that the Energy Cap is due to be raised once more next April. Also they are hoping that after this upheaval customers will be a lot less willing to "shop around for better deals" and "switch" once the market stabilises, meaning that they have millions more customers on their books. The days of cheap energy are over.
As I read the situation the losses that these larger Energy suppliers (including Octopus) suffer from taking on customers from failing businesses will be recovered from the end users through a levy.Paul Waine wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:52 pmOctopus (and others) will be comparing the loss they will suffer on taking on Avro's (and other failed energy suppliers) customers with the acquisition cost they incur when the pick up the customers from (i) price comparison sites and (ii) the cash back they give to existing customers and shared with the new customer when a new customer signs up. I think Octopus was paying £100 x 2 for recommendations from existing customers.
It may be that the industry will be hoping that Ofgem will take another look at how they set the cap, making it more reflective of the prices for the period of the cap. The cap that will come in in April 2022, for example, shouldn't be based on the gas prices that were in the market in the winter of 2021/22. Summer and winter demand are very obviously different. Customers buy a lot less and energy suppliers sell a lot less in summer than they do in winter.
Quote from Sunday Times: "For a typical dual-fuel bill, 34 per cent is the wholesale cost, 25 per cent network costs, 18.6 per cent operating costs and 15.3 per cent covers environmental and social costs."
Hi kenton, I'd not seen that the default suppliers are being protected against the difference between the cap and the cost of gas and power prices being above the cap. It's interesting if that is true, though it will be very difficult to determine what that cost actually is. Would it be measured by the cost of buying gas to hedge the anticipated volumes of gas the customers taken on would consume be on the day that the customers are taken on? would it be measured by the cost of the actual gas consumed when the winter is over? Or measured for the period until the new customer has entered into a new deal, either with their new default supplier or has chosen to leave their default supplier and go elsewhere? Then, what if the default energy supplier had been over-hedged for existing customers expected gas needs, so was already offsetting some potential losses by taking on the customers of the failed company(ies)? We all know the expression "how long is a piece of string." If Ofgem (gov't) plans to measure these costs from new customers it will be like trying to measure a whole basket of balls of string after a dozen kittens have stopped fighting over it. However, I wonder if they will just "make up a number" and someone wins and others lose.kentonclaret wrote: ↑Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:40 pmAs I read the situation the losses that these larger Energy suppliers (including Octopus) suffer from taking on customers from failing businesses will be recovered from the end users through a levy.
To quote from an article on the BBC News website today "Millions of customers face being moved to higher tariffs from bigger suppliers and the cost those larger companies incur from taking on new customers will be added to all consumers bills through an industry-wide levy">
"The BBC has been told that Ministers believe the current system for managing the failure of Energy companies, which allows companies to recoup losses through the levy, is working satisfactorily - even though it will add costs to millions of customers' bills."
So, it is not just the higher fuel costs that are being passed on to the end-user but the cost of the failed businesses within the energy industry on top of that.
Very interesting news re Octopus in the Guardian (US edition) this afternoon: "Octopus secures up to $600m from investment fund set up by Al Gore."
OssyClaret wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:24 pmJust wanted to share my referral code for anyone thinking of switching to Octopus at this time. If you join using the link, we both get £50.
UTC
share.octopus.energy/new-gaur-446
share.octopus.energy/new-gaur-446
Hi Ossy and Mov, do you think Octopus is still trying to add new customers at the present time - and is still offering to pay out 2 x £50 for people signing up? The only sensible action given where gas and elec prices are at the moment is to stay with your existing supplier on whatever deal you had with them. The best you can get if you move is the capped standard variable rate - and Octopus (and all other energy suppliers) will be losing hundreds of pounds if anyone does sign up on that rate.ClaretMov wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:21 pmA working link
https://share.octopus.energy/clean-newt-241