How Would We Feel if the Saudis Took Over Burnley?

[Spiral]

More virtue signalling.

If that phrase virtue signalling ever had any meaning to begin with, it was quickly eroded by people using it as code for, "oh dear, I don't have a good response to this."

[Rileybobs]

If that phrase virtue signalling ever had any meaning to begin with, it was quickly eroded by people using it as code for, "oh dear, I don't have a good response to this."

Woke.

[Damo]

Questionable ? Is that all it is?
So if Putin wants to get in next at Fulham, that would also be ok?

That would be ok as far as I'm concerned. I couldn't give a rats arse who owns what club.
I suspect most people on here would secretly be happy if Putin or the Saudi's started buying us trophies.
It's very easy to start shouting about moral compasses or whatever, when the situation is hypothetical.
The Internet is full of people like that

[Jakubclaret]

We are imperfect human beings, of course we all have our minor hypocrisy from time to time, I’ve tried to cut China and the oil states out of my life as much as possible but some slips through. There will be a million football fans in the UK discussing this today and they will have a million stances on it. We have to be careful not to slate any of those who aren’t exactly the same as us.

Newcastle fans will be the same - many disgusted, many stopping attending, many others still attending while disgusted and many more nonplussed.

One things for sure though - this isn’t sport anymore. It’s sportwashing geopolitics.

“Many stopping attending” it’s almost guaranteed the gates will soar if success follows expected investment people are staying away because expectations are underwhelming, exactly the opposite from what you’ve stated will happen if results improve & the club are perceived to be going places & challenging amongst the elite, the geordie fanbase are about to start the dreamland experience that’s been deprived for a such a long time. Other clubs are bitter & critical because it’s happening to them & not us or others.

[Spiral]

It's very easy to start shouting about moral compasses or whatever, when the situation is hypothetical.
The Internet is full of people like that

You're not the first person to say something like that. You're either bang on, or you're so lacking in principle on the matter of your football club's ownership that it's impossible for you to conceive of it in others. Like a man blind from birth finding it impossible to conceptualise 'blue'.

[KRBFC]

If I know the watch is unethically sourced I don't buy it.

but ethics can be hidden, there's a good chance people died of labour to make items of clothing in your wardrobe, you still bought the clothing.

I agree the Saudi's are scumbags but I bought the Joshua PPV in Saudi. I feel strongly about the way animals are treated for meat, I still eat meat and don't check where/how it's sourced. I don't agree with slave labour but I've probably purchased products that have been made that way.
It's like the Blackpool fans hated Oyston and what he did, some still bought tickets to games.

Inadvertently you are likely involved in something you don't like, it's kinda just how the world works.

[Damo]

but ethics can be hidden, there's a good chance people died of labour to make items of clothing in your wardrobe, you still bought the clothing.

I agree the Saudi's are scumbags but I bought the Joshua PPV in Saudi. I feel strongly about the way animals are treated for meat, I still eat meat and don't check where/how it's sourced. I don't agree with slave labour but I've probably purchased products that have been made that way.
It's like the Blackpool fans hated Oyston and what he did, some still bought tickets to games.

Inadvertently you are likely involved in something you don't like, it's kinda just how the world works.

I bet he has a good idea where the metals come from that are used to manufacture whatever device he is using to post his holier than thou opinions on here

[Spiral]

Inadvertently you are likely involved in something you don't like, it's kinda just how the world works.

I've expressed this myself. Omniscience is not expected, but when armed with information that brings ethics into the frame you have a moral choice to make. Sometimes the 'purer' choice is not even remotely practical. If I don't get on the bus to work on account of it using fuel, I don't get to work. If I don't get to work I lose my job, and all the fallout of that such as homelessness and hunger, and so on and so forth. This is why the charge of hypocrisy laid against those saying they'd stop spending money and going on is ridiculous. Accusing someone else of being a hypocrite under these circumstances is nothing but a distraction from the unease that might creep in your mind knowing that you, actually, quite want a butcher like MBS to buy you success, and so deflect it onto others and label them hypocrites and convince yourself the world is $hit and that there's nothing you can do. And while it's true the fans don't have a say in their clubs' ownership, and while I'd never judge a fan for directly supporting their clubs under these kind of owners — while there's nothing I might be able to actually DO about it, there is certainly one thing I can choose NOT TO DO, I know that I can make a choice not to participate in that economy.

[Spiral]

I bet he has a good idea where the metals come from that are used to manufacture whatever device he is using to post his holier than thou opinions on here

I'm honestly surprised you've conquered the login screen. It's like you can't even read a single word anyone posts. No thoughtful response, no intelligent arguments, and clear to everyone you're not even listening (reading) what people are saying. I'm not even sure what your point is, and it's clear you're demonstrating the kind of behaviour I've described above, so I'm just gonna ignore you.

[Taffy on the wing]

I know there's a general thread on the topic, but this is a specific question to think about. If it had been Saudi Arabia rather than ALK that took over Burnley, it seems likely we could look forward to becoming one of the top clubs in Europe. But would we want people like that in charge of the club, a totalitarian state ruled by murderers and war criminals?

For me, it's an absolute no, but it seems like most Newcastle supporters are really happy about it. Of course there's a dilemma and we all want our team to win every match, but surely there's a limit to how far one is willing to let go of moral instincts. I would be interested to read what others think about it.

Like we'd sold our soul to the Devil!......Prem is becoming a Billionaire's club

[KRBFC]

I've expressed this myself. Omniscience is not expected, but when armed with information that brings ethics into the frame you have a moral choice to make. Sometimes the 'purer' choice is not even remotely practical. If I don't get on the bus to work on account of it using fuel, I don't get to work. If I don't get to work I lose my job, and all the fallout of that such as homelessness and hunger, and so on and so forth. This is why the charge of hypocrisy laid against those saying they'd stop spending money and going on is ridiculous. Accusing someone else of being a hypocrite under these circumstances is nothing but a distraction from the unease that might creep in your mind knowing that you, actually, quite want a butcher like MBS to buy you success, and so deflect it onto others and label them hypocrites and convince yourself the world is $hit and that there's nothing you can do. And while it's true the fans don't have a say in their clubs' ownership, and while I'd never judge a fan for directly supporting their clubs under these kind of owners — while there's nothing I might be able to actually DO about it, there is certainly one thing I can choose NOT TO DO, I know that I can make a choice not to participate in that economy.

You could cycle to work, you chose not to.
You could chose not to purchase products from Chinese sweatshops, you chose to.
The African slave labour produces many materials powering items you chose to buy.
You can chose to attend Burnley games against Newcastle, you will likely chose to go.
You could chose not to eat meat and make a stand against disgusting ways animals are treated for meat, you still eat meat.

Acting like you don't have a choice is simply excuses. Many people wouldn't take the ''holier than thou'' because they understand they do have a choice and with the way the world works, inadvertently we are all part responsible in some way to different global issues.

[Spiral]

Spot the difference:

Food, clothing, transportation, protection from the elements, communication.

Football (a leisure activity).

If this still needs pointing out to you then you'll never understand.

[Damo]

I'm honestly surprised you've conquered the login screen. It's like you can't even read a single word anyone posts. No thoughtful response, no intelligent arguments, and clear to everyone you're not even listening (reading) what people are saying. I'm not even sure what your point is, and it's clear you're demonstrating the kind of behaviour I've described above, so I'm just gonna ignore you.

My point is, that I wouldn't allow the background of football club owners to spoil my enjoyment of the game, and I doubt you would either, judging by the standpoint you take when it comes to other things made and sold by people with similar backgrounds, despite what you preach on social media platforms

[Spiral]

My point is, that I wouldn't allow the background of football club owners to spoil my enjoyment of the game, and I doubt you would either, judging by the standpoint you take when it comes to other things made and sold by people with similar backgrounds, despite what you preach on social media platforms

Your argument only holds if you view football and food (and clothing and communication etc) to be equally important to existence, which they are not; and dissident-murdering-religious-extremist-despotic-tyrany to be the same thing as a company which exploits cheap labour under awful working conditions, which, while both bad, are not the same thing. If you can't see these distinctions I'm wasting my time on you. If you don't care for the distinctions because it's essential to your argument that there be no distinction (which is what's actually happening here), I'm also wasting my time on you, and it's clear I've touched a nerve and made you think about yourself and it has made you uncomfortable, and this is why you've attempted bickering a bit above. You're arguing points I've addressed again and again and again.

[Damo]

Your argument only holds if you view football and food (and clothing and communication etc) to be equally important to existence, which they are not; and dissident-murdering-religious-extremist-despotic-tyrany to be the same thing as a company which exploits cheap labour under awful working conditions, which, while both bad, are not the same thing. If you can't see these distinctions I'm wasting my time on you. If you don't care for the distinctions because it's essential to your argument that there be no distinction (which is what's actually happening here), I'm also wasting my time on you, and it's clear I've touched a nerve and made you think about yourself and it has made you uncomfortable, and this is why you've attempted bickering a bit above. You're arguing points I've addressed again and again and again.

I made a post, you replied to it (to show me how virtuous you are) and now you are complaining that you have previously made similar posts like your responses to mine? Quite bizarre that I'd say.
Also, you haven't touched a nerve. I stated my viewpoint and while it may be at loggerheads with the views you say that you personally hold, and probably slightly unpalatable, it was genuine.

[Spiral]

Not bizarre when you consider I've been going round in circles having to repeat what I said in very the first post I made on this thread, even after stating that such-and-such a point has already been made. Just read the damn thread.

For anyone else reading this (cos I'm getting little sense from this lot), tell me am I insane for referring to previous posts I've made which address arguments being made later in the thread? I've been on here for a while and I thought I was okay with the forum etiquette, but this is normal, right? To refer to previous posts so as not to clutter threads and have interactions like those of the last ten or fifteen posts make it an insufferable read?

[addisclaret]

Not bizarre when you consider I've been going round in circles having to repeat what I said in very the first post I made on this thread, even after stating that such-and-such a point has already been made. Just read the damn thread.

For anyone else reading this (cos I'm getting little sense from this lot), tell me am I insane for referring to previous posts I've made which address arguments being made later in the thread? I've been on here for a while and I thought I was okay with the forum etiquette, but this is normal, right? To refer to previous posts so as not to clutter threads and have interactions like those of the last ten or fifteen posts make it an insufferable read?

Probably the best thing to do is not to bother to reply to the people who don't know the difference between there, their and they're, or the difference between the tenses of the verb to choose or the deliberate anglers who quote "virtue signalling" and "woke" as a response.

[Damo]

Not bizarre when you consider I've been going round in circles having to repeat what I said in very the first post I made on this thread, even after stating that such-and-such a point has already been made. Just read the damn thread.

For anyone else reading this (cos I'm getting little sense from this lot), tell me am I insane for referring to previous posts I've made which address arguments being made later in the thread? I've been on here for a while and I thought I was okay with the forum etiquette, but this is normal, right? To refer to previous posts so as not to clutter threads and have interactions like those of the last ten or fifteen posts make it an insufferable read?

I don't need to read the entire thread, just like you don't need to reply to every comment on it.
On football forums, you can choose to read, reply or completely ignore things.
It's a really good system

[Damo]

Probably the best thing to do is not to bother to reply to the people who don't know the difference between there, their and they're, or the difference between the tenses of the verb to choose or the deliberate anglers who quote "virtue signalling" and "woke" as a response.

Absolutely this
In future you should only reply to people with correct spelling, grammar and punctuation.
It's a sure fire way of only listening to views of the people with the same exciting outlook on life that you personally have

[Somethingfishy]

You have to wonder what Alan Pace makes of this. ALK in all likeliness will expect to build the club based on Premier League finances and exposure. Having another club ride off into the sunset away from us financially moves us another rung down the ladder. At some point it could be that it will be virtually impossible for investors of ALKs size to be able to sustain a Premier League club. The chances of him losing his investment (without going into the ins and outs of the deal that purchased us) have just increased. At some point investors like ALK will be small time in comparison to the bigger owners and we are back to square one.

[TsarBomba]

Taking the moral high ground on human rights while purchasing items made from slavery doesn't quite make sense to me, it's like crying about global warming while driving a motorbike. You wouldn't accept Saudi investment in football but you will happily buy Saudi oil?

What an utterly perverse argument.

The reliance on products, technology etc from countries such as Saudi Arabia is now largely out of our control. In an ideal world, no, I wouldn’t like to buy anything that comes from a regime that tortures innocent people, much like I don’t want to buy clothes that come from a sweatshop in Bangladesh.

Unfortunately, the world is so connected, and the lines so blurred, that it is virtually impossible to know exactly where everything you buy comes from.

When I bought my wife an engagement ring, did I know 100% where that diamond came from. I asked the question, and was assured that it wasn’t a blood diamond. But do I know for sure? Like really? No.

To fit your argument KRBFC, I would have to live naked in a wood, with no contact from the outside world, and only drink water from a stream.

It takes 5 minutes to google Saudi Arabian human rights abuses.

The now owner of Newcastle, Mohammed Bin-Salman has an infamous advisor called Saud al-Qhatani. Al-Qhatani visited a well know female activist in prison after she had been arrested for promoting the rights of women and supporting the rights of women to be able to drive. This activist, Loujain-al-Hathloul was beaten and tortured. In one of these beatings, al-Qhatani told her ‘I’ll kill you, cut you into pieces, throw you in the sewer system, but before that, I’ll rape you’.

The person that said this is a direct advisor to Bin-Salman. Think about it.

Morally, there has to be a red line, somewhere. And if something like this doesn’t make you cross that threshold, then I’m not sure what will.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Not bizarre when you consider I've been going round in circles having to repeat what I said in very the first post I made on this thread, even after stating that such-and-such a point has already been made. Just read the damn thread.

For anyone else reading this (cos I'm getting little sense from this lot), tell me am I insane for referring to previous posts I've made which address arguments being made later in the thread? I've been on here for a while and I thought I was okay with the forum etiquette, but this is normal, right? To refer to previous posts so as not to clutter threads and have interactions like those of the last ten or fifteen posts make it an insufferable read?

Have you ever even been to Saudi? It’s like you imagine people are being beheaded in the streets for littering.

If I’m honest I think your a hypocrite. You clearly only have morals when it suits.

[Damo]

Unfortunately, the world is so connected, and the lines so blurred, that it is virtually impossible to know exactly where everything you buy comes from.

Absolute nonsense. You can find the source of literally everything you buy, better than any generation before you.
You can look up the atrocities committed by the manufacturer and the people who fund it too.

[RMutt]

Absolute nonsense. You can find the source of literally everything you buy, better than any generation before you.
You can look up the atrocities committed by the manufacturer and the people who fund it too.

I suspect if the labels were clear enough many would avoid buying products from countries with poor human rights records or working conditions. If something said ‘made in Saudi Arabia’ on it, I’m sure it would be avoided by many. Newcastle now has a ‘made in Saudi Arabia’ sticker on it, so you can make a choice.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I suspect if the labels were clear enough many would avoid buying products from countries with poor human rights records or working conditions. If something said ‘made in Saudi Arabia’ on it, I’m sure it would be avoided by many. Newcastle now has a ‘made in Saudi Arabia’ sticker on it, so you can make a choice.

I hope you don’t use any social media platforms or watch any disney products etc… then

[RMutt]

I hope you don’t use any social media platforms or watch any disney products etc… then

Which clear labels might I have missed then?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Which clear labels might I have missed then?

Ok well it has been made clear to you now. Are you going to stop using/watching them?

[CFS]

You hit the nail on the head here.
I don't think anyone would be happy about Saudi investment in our club
Some of us would prefer no overseas investment into the PL "product" at all.
I am one.

Id be happy second that I'd be more than happy as they would have the sense to get this dinasour of a manager out.

[boatshed bill]

Not bizarre when you consider I've been going round in circles .

My favourite bit of this thread!

[RMutt]

Ok well it has been made clear to you now. Are you going to stop using/watching them?

Sorry, you’ll need to enlighten me.

[Rombald]

This news seems like its Newcastleclaret93 's cup final
More enjoyment from it than any Burnley news I've seen.

To answer the original question, I'd not be comfortable with it at all. Would I have as much enjoyment from watching Burnley, no, I don't think so. I'm OK if others don't feel the same.
However, if those individuals cannot see the difference between this and purchasing a film on Netflix, then there's simply no point arguing.

[claretonthecoast1882]

I hope you don’t use any social media platforms or watch any disney products etc… then

Good to see high levels of whataboutery from you.

Why can't you get it in your head there are some people who find this uncomfortable. You have openly admitted you wouldn't have no issue with where money comes from so long as it made a club you like successful, some people are different. Likening using this messageboard to having someone who orders the murder of someone they disagree with is fairly stupid even for you.

You were one of the ones seduced by money when talks of a takeover started happening here, you used to defend to other bid despite him having no money but because he said he had more he was your preferred choice, seems you prostitute yourself in favour of the highest bidder. When you say you have no issue with who runs the club so longs as they pump money and using your dumb level of whataboutery would you be ok with drug smugglers running the club ? Surely you would be after all you have no morals and aren't bothered who owns what so long as they have cash.

Living a life obsessed with money is a really sad existence.

[Newcastleclaret93]

This news seems like its Newcastleclaret93 's cup final
More enjoyment from it than any Burnley news I've seen.

To answer the original question, I'd not be comfortable with it at all. Would I have as much enjoyment from watching Burnley, no, I don't think so. I'm OK if others don't feel the same.
However, if those individuals cannot see the difference between this and purchasing a film on Netflix, then there's simply no point arguing.

No just can’t stand hypocrites.

Spiral has already said he is happy to use products from Saudi but isn’t happy to watch a football team owned by Saudis. For me you either do neither or both.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Good to see high levels of whataboutery from you.

Why can't you get it in your head there are some people who find this uncomfortable. You have openly admitted you wouldn't have no issue with where money comes from so long as it made a club you like successful, some people are different. Likening using this messageboard to having someone who orders the murder of someone they disagree with is fairly stupid even for you.

You were one of the ones seduced by money when talks of a takeover started happening here, you used to defend to other bid despite him having no money but because he said he had more he was your preferred choice, seems you prostitute yourself in favour of the highest bidder. When you say you have no issue with who runs the club so longs as they pump money and using your dumb level of whataboutery would you be ok with drug smugglers running the club ? Surely you would be after all you have no morals and aren't bothered who owns what so long as they have cash.

Living a life obsessed with money is a really sad existence.

No I just think if your morals or so high you should either cut them out your life completely or stop preaching to everyone about how immoral it is.

Again I couldn’t care less I watch football to be entertained not for the world politics.

[CFS]

No just can’t stand hypocrites.

Spiral has already said he is happy to use products from Saudi but isn’t happy to watch a football team owned by Saudis. For me you either do neither or both.

This this this. Lots of hypocrisy on here from deluded fools thinking theIR know it all COZ they can spell looool

[claretonthecoast1882]

No I just think if your morals or so high you should either cut them out your life completely or stop preaching to everyone about how immoral it is.

Again I couldn’t care less I watch football to be entertained not for the world politics.

Then stop watching us

[Newcastleclaret93]

Then stop watching us

Quite clearly a lot of our fan base already have

[Dy1geo]

To the original question, I follow horse racing a sport where millions are spent on yearlings by billionaire Arabs many of who run questionable regimes only yesterday Sheikh Mohammed was reported to have hacked his ex wife’s phone. Do I back Godolphin horses yes I do,

The Saudi cup is the World’s richest horse race and I had a bet in it so I would be a hypocrite to go against Saudi ownership at Burnley.

Many of the these countries have laws in place that I personally find repugnant but you derive change by soft influence, as an example women were allowed to ride this year.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Quite clearly a lot of our fan base already have

Most clubs lose their plastics when the going gets tough.

[CFS]

Most clubs lose their plastics when the going gets tough.

Ain't no plastic sitting through the shite football I have for all these years trust me. Unnecessary neck pain and falling asleep I'm surprised I lasted this long with dino in charge.

[Colburn_Claret]

Unhappy

There are obvious benefits, but we'd certainly lose something.
I wasn't keen on MG selling up, but that ships sailed, so far ALK haven't done anything wrong, and I like the way Mr Pace talks about the club. In truth the club has to mean more than an expensive toy to the owners.

[Rombald]

No just can’t stand hypocrites.

Spiral has already said he is happy to use products from Saudi but isn’t happy to watch a football team owned by Saudis. For me you either do neither or both.

As most things on life , it's a little more nuanced than that. Things aren't always black and white (excuse the unintended association with Newcastle).
Anyway, enjoy your celebrations

[Newcastleclaret93]

As most things on life , it's a little more nuanced than that. Things aren't always black and white (excuse the unintended association with Newcastle).
Anyway, enjoy your celebrations

Nothing to celebrate the Saudis aren’t taking over Burnley unfortunately

[claretonthecoast1882]

Nothing to celebrate the Saudis aren’t taking over Burnley unfortunately

But you watch football to be entertained, as in all entertainment you have a choice.

If you put a film on and don't like it you change film, same with an album so surely a football club is the same if it is just entertainment to you.

[Newcastleclaret93]

But you watch football to be entertained, as in all entertainment you have a choice.

If you put a film on and don't like it you change film, same with an album so surely a football club is the same if it is just entertainment to you.

Yes quite simply every single football fan watches football to be entertained. That is kind of the whole point of an entertainment industry.

I would compare it more to your favourite film franchise. For example I struggle through a few crap programmes/films of my favourite movie franchise in the Hope something better comes along.

Similarly I am hoping we start to play better football, as attendances show its currently not entertaining

[Billy Balfour]

As said upthread - a European super league can't be far away, and clubs like ManU and Liverpool will be insisting on it in order to compete with the oligarchs and oil barons. Also, the average punter doesn't want to pay to watch nearly two thirds of the EPL slogging it out for survival. They want to watch the mega-billions teams playing each other once or twice a week.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Yes quite simply every single football fan watches football to be entertained. That is kind of the whole point of an entertainment industry.

I would compare it more to your favourite film franchise. For example I struggle through a few crap programmes/films of my favourite movie franchise in the Hope something better comes along.

Similarly I am hoping we start to play better football, as attendances show its currently not entertaining

Now you are speaking for every single football fan, you have no awareness in anything have you ?

My first season was 1978, do you think I and any of the others who went through the 80s did so for entertainment value ? When did you ask all these fans why they went. Supporters who stand by their club through the thick n thin, do you think we used to go to places like Scunthorpe and Walsall due to the entertainment.

You keep using this attendance dig like 1000s of others are being like you and just not going as the football isn't fancy enough, not taking into account peoples lack of funds, peoples habits changing as well as those who feel uncomfortable returning, not all people are the same as you (thankfully)

[milkcrate_mosh]

Fascinated to see how effective the Saudi's sportwashing has been already. Was unedifying seeing Newcastle fans dancing in the street here but seeing burnley fans handwaving their human rights abuses as in an alternate universe they might have have let us spunk 30 million on a Brazilian midfielder is incredible. Being an apologist for the regime in exchange for billions of pounds is pretty bad but but imagine spending the early hours of a weekday morning fervently defending them for free!

It's worth noting some on here with no issues letting their club be a PR front for a regime currently committing atrocities in Yemen are quite open that they're not attending games because they've convinced themselves the club have aligned themselves with Black Lives Matter. Perhaps these people are the ones showing a moral inconsistency rather than those who think this isn't a regime we should be actively supporting who also happen to occasionally visit petrol stations.

[TsarBomba]

Yes quite simply every single football fan watches football to be entertained. That is kind of the whole point of an entertainment industry.

I would compare it more to your favourite film franchise. For example I struggle through a few crap programmes/films of my favourite movie franchise in the Hope something better comes along.

Similarly I am hoping we start to play better football, as attendances show its currently not entertaining

It really is all or nothing with you, isn’t it?

Yes, there’s an entertainment factor of course, but again, it’s far more nuanced. A love for the club, a dedication passed down from generation to generation in families. My mum goes on the football because it’s a huge part of her social life; a chance to meet friends that otherwise she’d struggle to see.

[NottsClaret]

Yes I’m the same. Imagine Burnley playing in the champions league, it would be absolutely incredible

I'm not sure. As we are now, obviously.. because it's almost impossible and that's the dream. But as an overseas branch of an oil state like City, Newcastle and PSG there'd be none of the thrill and pride. You'd basically be replacing everything that makes Burnley what it is with a shiny new franchise-lite 'project' based in the same area. That's before you get to the horrors your new owners perpetrate elsewhere, which you have to pretend not to see.

But that's just my view, I'm sure over 90% of us would love it, which is fine - I would genuinely be happy for them. I'd probably just shuffle back to non-league footy. As it is, we've no need to worry, as we're well down the US leveraged buyout route instead which does not end in the Champions League.